1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Bolt]

Let's come at it from a different angle:  What does the Viddasala stand to gain by launching an unauthorized attack against the South?  If her plan succeeded, and her targets were eliminated, what then?  Can she take on the south of Thedas without Par Vollen's aid?  Is Par Vollen in a state where it can hold against retaliation?

 

If we assume that the Viddasala isn't following orders, she's catching both sides by surprise, creating chaos, and helping no one.

 

An authorized sneak attack makes much more sense even without the interview. 

[LOLandStuff]

Let's come at it from a different angle:  What does the Viddasala stand to gain by launching an unauthorized attack against the South?

 

The satisfaction of a job well done in cleansing the South of whatever chaos something something magic.

[Dai Grepher]

Let's come at it from a different angle:  What does the Viddasala stand to gain by launching an unauthorized attack against the South?  If her plan succeeded, and her targets were eliminated, what then?  Can she take on the south of Thedas without Par Vollen's aid?  Is Par Vollen in a state where it can hold against retaliation?

She doesn't care what she stands to gain. She likely only wants to see the Qun dominate the world. She's a fanatic. If her plan had succeeded, she would have informed the Triumvirate of the result and suggested that they use that opportunity to invade the South.

But even if she had failed, the attack would have provoked the South to declare war on Par Vollen, in which case the Triumvirate would be forced to respond with force.

Thus war begins in either case, and in Viddasala's mind the Qunari would dominate the world either through the "gentle path" or the "way of blades".
 

If we assume that the Viddasala isn't following orders, she's catching both sides by surprise, creating chaos, and helping no one.

She would have informed the Triumvirate after the attack. This is why she was angry when Josephine's letter got through before the attack was carried out. It's also why she prevented the Triumvirate letter from reaching the Inquisition, so they would assume the Triumvirate never replied, thus leading to war.
 

An authorized sneak attack makes much more sense even without the interview.

Except the operation itself only had one agent in charge of the entire thing. That was not an official invasion effort.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Triumvirate intended to use the spies in all nations to invade one day, but Dragon's Breath was not sanctioned. Par Vollen will not invade the South until Tevinter falls, and when they make the attempt, they will not bother placing gaatlok all around. The better approach would be to have sleeper agents lying it wait with arrows and daggers to assassinate southern leaders.

Of course, Viddasala's foolishness just set the Qunari back centuries.

[robertthebard]

No, it's because there were real Qunari onboard, just as there were real Qunari in the Darvaarad. None of them were authorized to attack the South however.

Citations needed. We need something here that's going to counter Weekes, not you misrepresenting videos, again, of panels or interviews. "But the letter..." is easily explained, in context with Weekes' comments in the interview here as "Plausible Deniability", since he straight out says they didn't go with an offshoot or a rogue faction of Qunari.

[Mistic]

Except the operation itself only had one agent in charge of the entire thing. That was not an official invasion effort.

 

Of course Dragon's Breath was not an official invasion effort. Even in the best case scenario, it's a massive sabotage and assassination operation to make the actual invasion easier. What does that have to do with it not being an authorized sneak attack?

 

It would be like saying the attack on Pearl Harbor wasn't an authorized surprise attack because it wasn't an official invasion effort.

[Fiskrens]

Omg, this thread is even worse than the one I read ages ago about Viddasala not being a rogue agent!

[Darkstarr11]

Yes, the Hamburger and Sandwich Conundrum is made up.  My Professor in College made it up.  Like this game.  These forums.  It's called 'creation'.  Writers, scientists, teachers, designers...they 'make up' stuff all the time.  Analogies are 'made up'.  The Qun, the Chantry...made up.

 

Also, bread is a common term for bun.  Second, a 'bun' doesn't make it hamburger...the meat patty does.  

 

Again, `offshoot'.  If it isn't official, and it isn't rogue then...what is it?  Can't have it both ways.  I know, you'll subtly imply how idiotic I am, but humor me.  We have a group that is REAL Qunari, but NOT 'Qunari' Qunari apparently that ISN'T authorized to move forth with a huge undertaking with massive supplies and resources as well as troops, spies, and couriers that has NO oversight from a government who is downright fanatical in their use of control over their subjects who also have no idea what their own people are doing at any time (not to mention that they are apparently filling a rival organization with spies which should have tipped them off at some point).  You see, it doesn't STRAIN credibility...it smashes it with a hammer, sets it on fire, then dowses it by urinating on it.  No organization gives complete autonomy to an agent unless you are at the top...and a dictator.  The Viddisala ISN'T the boss...she is high ranking, but NOT the boss.  So HER boss is either stupid, or complicit.  Mistakes happen, sure, but her group was huge, with their own castle.  I'm fairly certain that Orlais and Ferelden noticed a band of soldiers on their borders setting up shop on a holy site and then occupying a castle...and it WASN'T their castle.  Yet the Qunari can't even see that one of their own is basically doing her own thing?  NO ONE upstairs even thought to check what was going on?  

 

Yeah, this isn't a shonen drama...this is for the big kids.  That's too far down the scale.  The Qunari, who are SUPPOSED to be this awesome group of fanatical soldiers and spies looks ineffective...it becomes an informed ability.  We lose all interest and respect in this group.  You'd LOSE YOUR AUDIENCE.  I don't think they Worf'd the Qunari.  Making them rogue...sorry...not authorized...is a cop out.  It's weak.  I have more respect for the writing team than that.  

[Bolt]

Nothing to see here.  Move out, move along.  --The Wallflowers

 

Bowing out of discussion due to reasons.  Carry on.

Modifié par Bolt, 25 mai 2016 - 03:56 .

[Illegitimus]

Except the operation itself only had one agent in charge of the entire thing. That was not an official invasion effort.
 

 

Ah-ah.  Naughty.  "Authorized" is not the same thing as "official".  

[Dai Grepher]

Citations needed.

"...military action has not been approved against the Inquisition. No one in Par Vollen has authorized actions of any kind involving the Exalted Council. Nor will they.

We are seeking out the Ben-Hassrath priest who appears to be leading this operation without our consent. Once she is located, we assure you that these hostile actions will cease." - Triumvirate letter, dreadnought destroyed worldstate.

"The Salasari have no knowledge of any operations occurring in Halamshiral, and are investigating your claims of gaatlok being used in the South." - Triumvirate letter, all other worldstates.

Of course Dragon's Breath was not an official invasion effort. Even in the best case scenario, it's a massive sabotage and assassination operation to make the actual invasion easier. What does that have to do with it not being an authorized sneak attack?

Part of Viddasala's operation was to invade Halamshiral, as stated on her orders to a soldier in the Forgotten Temple. But even the sneak attack aspect was not authorized.

It would be like saying the attack on Pearl Harbor wasn't an authorized surprise attack because it wasn't an official invasion effort.

If Dragon's Breath had been official and authorized, it would have been part of an invasion effort. It was not, and therefore was not part of any invasion attempt.

Yes, the Hamburger and Sandwich Conundrum is made up.  My Professor in College made it up.  Like this game.  These forums.  It's called 'creation'.  Writers, scientists, teachers, designers...they 'make up' stuff all the time.  Analogies are 'made up'.  The Qun, the Chantry...made up.

Tell him I told you that it's a bad analogy. Bread is for sandwiches, buns are for hamburgers.

Also, bread is a common term for bun.  Second, a 'bun' doesn't make it hamburger...the meat patty does.

No it doesn't. Hamburger is a style of beef, and one component of a hamburger. It can be used in chili or even on pizza. Does it automatically make those dishes hamburgers as well? Buns are another necessary component of a hamburger.

Again, `offshoot'.  If it isn't official, and it isn't rogue then...what is it?

Unauthorized.

Can't have it both ways.

Not trying to. You're the one calling a sandwich a hamburger.

I know, you'll subtly imply how idiotic I am, but humor me.

Have I ever insulted you in the past?

We have a group that is REAL Qunari, but NOT 'Qunari' Qunari apparently that ISN'T authorized to move forth with a huge undertaking with massive supplies and resources as well as troops, spies, and couriers that has NO oversight from a government who is downright fanatical in their use of control over their subjects who also have no idea what their own people are doing at any time (not to mention that they are apparently filling a rival organization with spies which should have tipped them off at some point).  You see, it doesn't STRAIN credibility...it smashes it with a hammer, sets it on fire, then dowses it by urinating on it.

That is your opinion. I see nothing unbelievable about this scenario. All of it can be explained. And what about the Inquisition? It had various agents all working against it. Leliana and Cullen even took unauthorized action in the game by hiding the Qunari body.

As for the Qunari, it has been explained that Viddasala was a priest, and her duties included finding, studying, and stopping magic, as well as converting people to the Qun and reeducating them. So she was a high ranking agent in the Qun. All of her actions were also explained regarding her ability to get the resources she had as well as her ability to keep her plan a secret from the officials who were parallel and above her. The Qunari control the lower ranking members of society through the priesthood, which Viddasala is a part of. So how difficult would it be to control someone who is placed in a trusted position? The problem here is that the Triumvirate and high ranking agents of the three branches all assumed three basic things, 1. That all high ranking agents were loyal to the Qun. 2. That all understood the Qun and the chain of command in the same way. 3. That the punishments for violating either were enough to deter any high ranking agent from violating them. Viddasala took advantage of all three.

As for who would oversee her, the only one to do that would be the Ariqun. He or she could have easily been duped or been needed elsewhere. Viddasala is proven to be telling her agents to give false reports to the gatekeeper. She smuggled in red lyrium in clear violation of the Triumvirate's wishes. She is also shown to have been intercepting Hissrad's letters to his superiors as stated in Josephine's letter. She also intercepted the reply letter from the Triumvirate.

It was Viddasala's job to brainwash the viddathari. I would have been easy to tell them to carry out her operation when the time came and also not report any of it to any superior officer of theirs so as not to risk the operation being exposed to the enemy. This would ensure that not even the other branches of the Ben-Hassrath would become aware of it.

No organization gives complete autonomy to an agent unless you are at the top...and a dictator.

Or unless that one agent takes control without authorization. The Qunari never entrust any role to any person who is not qualified to carry it out. Meaning, one agent would not have been assigned to all those various roles had Dragon's Breath been authorized.

[Dai Grepher]

The Viddisala ISN'T the boss...she is high ranking, but NOT the boss.

Yes, and yet she took control of the situation regardless.

So HER boss is either stupid, or complicit.

Stupid. Or has stupidity never been demonstrated among the Qunari?

Mistakes happen, sure, but her group was huge, with their own castle.

So what? That castle is part of the reason why Viddasala was able to get away with it for so long. She was able to conceal her own secrets there, such as the working eluvians. It doesn't matter how large her group was if all were blindly loyal to her and believed that she was sanctioned in her actions.

Yet there were some who questioned her. She wrote letters to convince all these people that what they were doing was demanded by the Qun. Jerran, who was too smart to believe her deceptions, had to be killed.

I'm fairly certain that Orlais and Ferelden noticed a band of soldiers on their borders setting up shop on a holy site and then occupying a castle...and it WASN'T their castle. Yet the Qunari can't even see that one of their own is basically doing her own thing? NO ONE upstairs even thought to check what was going on?

You're comparing the Qunari to humans, which is wrong. Ferelden and Orlais are two different factions of humans, as was the Inquisition even though it was manned by those from both countries. Distrust is logical between these factions. The Qunari on the other hand are supposed to all be part of the same "body". They likely trusted that Viddasala was only engaging in actions demanded by her role, as Qunari do on a daily basis. They had no reason to suspect her of anything else. And the castle was under Viddasala's jurisdiction. So even if the Ariqun came to visit, Viddasala would be able to hide anything incriminating or explain it away as being something else. For example...

All the smashed eluvians. This would be used as proof that she's doing her job. She would hide the mirrors she was actually using though. All the relics she was stockpiling? Dangerous magic being quarantined, as was her role and the purpose of the Darvaarad. She would not mention that she was using them to try to unlock more eluvains. The ataashi? A dangerous beast, quarantined for the good of the population. Why not kill it? To see if it can serve a purpose as a tamed animal. The Qun does not believe in wasting life or resources.

As for the red lyrium, that likely wasn't brought to the Darvaarad until after the mines were destroyed by the Inquisitor. The red lyrium we see is small compared to what it would be had it been sitting there for days. And all the gaatlok siting around is likely what was made in addition to what Viddasala used in the other locations and shipped to the various courts in the South. Meaning, the Darvaarad was not used to store the gaatlok at first. The elvhen ruins, the mines, and the Vir Dirthara were used to store and hide the gaatlok. After those locations were taken, more gaatlok was manufactured and stored at the Darvaarad in preparation for Viddasala's alternate attack plan, which would have been to attack openly, since she had by then lost the element of surprise.

And by this time she was already exposed to the Triumvirate, so hiding it no longer mattered.

Yeah, this isn't a shonen drama...this is for the big kids. That's too far down the scale.

Please. Of all the things that stretched the suspension of disbelief in Trespasser, Viddasala's own secret plot was among the least of these.

The Qunari, who are SUPPOSED to be this awesome group of fanatical soldiers and spies looks ineffective...it becomes an informed ability.

Ineffective against themselves. Also, the fact that four people can cut through hordes of qunari makes them look ineffective against the enemy no matter what side of the debate you're on.

We lose all interest and respect in this group. You'd LOSE YOUR AUDIENCE. I don't think they Worf'd the Qunari. Making them rogue...sorry...not authorized...is a cop out. It's weak. I have more respect for the writing team than that.

It's worse if they are authorized. It means the Triumvirate entrusted an unfocused and sloppy operation to one agent who wasn't qualified to oversee half of it, and then disavowed her as soon as the plot was discovered. They look like complete jokes if your theory were true.

Under my side's theory, Solas' point about betrayal and corruption rings true for the Qunari as well. They never expected a high priest to act as a Tal-Vashoth would, and for their blind trust in their own system it almost sparked a war that would have destroyed their entire culture.

My side has the more believable storyline, and its the storyline Weekes went with. That's the storyline that has some teeth.

[Dai Grepher]

Where is the Viddasala's state of mind discussed in the game?

It isn't discussed in any detail, though some clues are available. Still, this point was my answer to your question.

Where is her motivation for staging an unauthorized attack mentioned?

It's not. But he can be safely concluded that "spreading the Qun" is her motivation.

Who said she's angry over the letter because the Triumvirate found out?

Logical deduction.

Why can't she just be angry that the element of surprise has been lost and her operation is a wash?

Because that possibility was to be expected, and taking out frustration on the Triumvirate's letter only disobeys their will that the Inquisition receive their letter, for whatever reason the Triumvirate intended.

Ever work on a big, important project and have it crash and burn? It's frustrating.

Doesn't justify disobeying your superiors and putting your nation at risk of retaliation.

Also, I didn't call it an 'invasion.' I called it a sneak attack. The invasion part comes in after the sneak attack is carried off.

Fine, but Dragon's Breath included invasion. So to be clear, the sneak attack was not authorized and the invasion was not authorized. None of it was official.

Ah-ah. Naughty. "Authorized" is not the same thing as "official".

Official as in deriving from the official source, the Triumvirate. The Triumvirate did not attempt to invade or attack.

[Sifr]

Your side has a lot more than just one person on it.

 

You ever wonder that maybe that says something?

 

If everyone else in the room can see an elephant and one person cannot, rather than everyone making it up, perhaps the simple explanation is that the person who cannot see it happens to be looking in the wrong direction and is extremely inattentive to the giant elephant-shaped clues all around them?

 

Yes, your side has done exactly that, which is what I have been pointing out all along.

 

Says the person who has spouted nothing but their interpretation and headcanon, rather than any actual quotes or evidence?
 

The interview in the OP states nothing either way. The conference video does however show statements that prove the operation was not authorized.

 

No, it doesn't. Nowhere does it say anything even close to that... seriously, give us the exact statement that proves it, you can't!
 

I never claimed they weren't the real Qunari. The question is one of authorization. I refuse to accept your misinterpretation of Weekes' statements. That they are real Qunari does not mean they are authorized, and you have ignored this truth since I first pointed it out to you.

 

You've done nothing but deny that fact since the start of the thread, refusing to accept that Weekes has confirmed that they were real Qunari and that they were intending to start a war. You have ignored both his words and the painfully obvious, despite everyone explaining it to you.

 

As for my own personal idea of the Qunari, I fully acknowledge that they would cross (literal) swords with the South eventually just as Sten told my Hero King of Ferelden. I also wanted Par Vollen to go to war with the South in Trespasser. But my wanting that plot doesn't make it so, and it doesn't change the facts of the game. It doesn't change the fact that invasion of the entire South is impossible, as Hissrad admits. Par Vollen couldn't even take Tevinter. If it were to divide its forces across the entire South, the Qunari race would be annihilated by Tevinter alone, never mind the Southern nations banding together to counterattack.

 

Which completely ignores the entire point of the decapitation strike that they were planning. It was to throw the entire South into chaos, making an invasion easier, because the South would have been completely destabilised with the Exalted Council. as well as numerous heads of state and important officials, killed by Dragon's Breath.

 

We're told that this was the plan in the DLC itself, so why do you refuse to accept something the game explicitly tells us?

[Mistic]

Part of Viddasala's operation was to invade Halamshiral, as stated on her orders to a soldier in the Forgotten Temple. But even the sneak attack aspect was not authorized.


If Dragon's Breath had been official and authorized, it would have been part of an invasion effort. It was not, and therefore was not part of any invasion attempt.

 

You have to make up your mind. First, you told Bolt that the operation "was not an official invasion effort". Now you say that, well, she did have plans "to invade Halamshiral" at least, so there was some invading. Ok. But you end saying that it still isn't "part of any invasion attempt". Your words, not mine.

 

Also, don't think I don't see the logical fallacy: you say the sneak attack couldn't have been authorized because it was not an invasion, but then you claim it couldn't be an invasion because it was not authorized. That's called circular reasoning. It's the same as saying "the sneak attack was authorized because it was an invasion, and it was an invasion because it was authorized".

 

[pdusen]

You ever wonder that maybe that says something?

 

If everyone else in the room can see an elephant and one person cannot, rather than everyone making it up, perhaps the simple explanation is that the person who cannot see it happens to be looking in the wrong direction and is extremely inattentive to the giant elephant-shaped clues all around them?

 

 

Says the person who has spouted nothing but their interpretation and headcanon, rather than any actual quotes or evidence?
 

 

No, it doesn't. Nowhere does it say anything even close to that... seriously, give us the exact statement that proves it, you can't!
 

 

You've done nothing but deny that fact since the start of the thread, refusing to accept that Weekes has confirmed that they were real Qunari and that they were intending to start a war. You have ignored both his words and the painfully obvious, despite everyone explaining it to you.

 

 

Which completely ignores the entire point of the decapitation strike that they were planning. It was to throw the entire South into chaos, making an invasion easier, because the South would have been completely destabilised with the Exalted Council. as well as numerous heads of state and important officials, killed by Dragon's Breath.

 

We're told that this was the plan in the DLC itself, so why do you refuse to accept something the game explicitly tells us?

 

[Dai Grepher]

You ever wonder that maybe that says something?
 
If everyone else in the room can see an elephant and one person cannot, rather than everyone making it up, perhaps the simple explanation is that the person who cannot see it happens to be looking in the wrong direction and is extremely inattentive to the giant elephant-shaped clues all around them?

Consensus does not determine fact.

My side has numerous people as well. Again, number means nothing. Fact is fact regardless of how many believe in it.
 

Says the person who has spouted nothing but their interpretation and headcanon, rather than any actual quotes or evidence?

No, you simply dismiss facts that prove you wrong.
 

No, it doesn't. Nowhere does it say anything even close to that... seriously, give us the exact statement that proves it, you can't!

Epler confirms that Viddasala was the leader, which proves the entire operation had her as the one agent running it, which contradicts Qunari culture. Weekes also confirms that the Qunari society cuts saarebas off from magic, whereas Viddasala was feeding them lyrium, which again contradicts Qunari culture.
 

You've done nothing but deny that fact since the start of the thread, refusing to accept that Weekes has confirmed that they were real Qunari and that they were intending to start a war. You have ignored both his words and the painfully obvious, despite everyone explaining it to you.

You're lying. I have always stated that the Qunari we fought in Trespasser were real Qunari trying to start a war. My argument is that they did so without authorization from the Triumvirate.
 

Which completely ignores the entire point of the decapitation strike that they were planning. It was to throw the entire South into chaos, making an invasion easier, because the South would have been completely destabilised with the Exalted Council. as well as numerous heads of state and important officials, killed by Dragon's Breath.

Par Vollen wasn't planning any strike on the South! That's the point! This was all just Viddasala's insane idea in order to start a massive war between Par Vollen and the rest of Thedas.

Not only would the gaatlok have failed to kill anyone important, but even if all heads of state were removed somehow, new ones would replace them instantly, as has been demonstrated in the past. Even a disorganized population can band together to rebel against a common enemy. Par Vollen will face a protracted war regardless. They know perfectly well that they can't attack the South until Tevinter is dealt with first. Once they have the mainland, then they can walk back in to Rivain, and push South through Antiva and Nevarra. Then the Free Marches. Then Ferelden by ship. Then finally Orlais.

But an assault that spans all of Thedas simultaneously? Ridiculous. There's no way they would be able to hold any country they struck with the surprise attack. Viddasala was out of her mind.

We're told that this was the plan in the DLC itself, so why do you refuse to accept something the game explicitly tells us?

We were told this by Viddasala, who lied about other things as well. She claimed Par Vollen decided its action when they saw the Breach: kill the leaders and spare those who toil. This was a lie. Iron Bull confirms in his first meeting that Par Vollen wanted information so it can determine if invasion is required to stop the Breach. Par Vollen knew that the Breach was sealed. Viddasala said the Inquisition worked for Fen'Harel, and that Solas founded the Inquisition. Both lies. She said Par Vollen left the South to curb the Inquisitor's magic. Another lie, as Par Vollen actively worked with the Inquisition in the two year gap. She said now that the "gentle path" was foiled they would now take the "way of blades". Another lie. There was no effort from Par Vollen to attack the South. She was a liar. She lied to you. She lied to her followers. She lied to her superiors.
 

You have to make up your mind. First, you told Bolt that the operation "was not an official invasion effort". Now you say that, well, she did have plans "to invade Halamshiral" at least, so there was some invading. Ok. But you end saying that it still isn't "part of any invasion attempt". Your words, not mine.

No, I wrote that it wasn't part of any official invasion attempt. That Viddasala gave orders to invade means that invasion was part of her scheme, but Par Vollen had no involvement and no plans to invade. So either it wasn't an official invasion, meaning unauthorized, or in your theory it was authorized and part of the invasion.

Your side is the one that has to make up its mind.
 

Also, don't think I don't see the logical fallacy: you say the sneak attack couldn't have been authorized because it was not an invasion, but then you claim it couldn't be an invasion because it was not authorized.

I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. I made no such argument. My argument is this:

1. Viddasala's scheme was not authorized because of the many canon reasons I already listed in this thread.

2. Viddasala's scheme involved a sneak attack and invasion, regardless of what side of the debate you're on.

3. An invasion is an invasion, authorized or not. My argument is that none of Viddasala's actions against the South were authorized.

[Illegitimus]

Yes, the Hamburger and Sandwich Conundrum is made up.  My Professor in College made it up.  Like this game.  These forums.  It's called 'creation'.  Writers, scientists, teachers, designers...they 'make up' stuff all the time.  Analogies are 'made up'.  The Qun, the Chantry...made up.

 

Also, bread is a common term for bun.  Second, a 'bun' doesn't make it hamburger...the meat patty does.  

 

Again, `offshoot'.  If it isn't official, and it isn't rogue then...what is it?  C

 

Deniable.  

[Sifr]

Consensus does not determine fact.

My side has numerous people as well. Again, number means nothing. Fact is fact regardless of how many believe in it.

 

While consensus does not always determine the facts, it does suggest that based on the evidence at hand that as been scrutinised, the overwhelming majority have come to support a position based on those findings. When new evidence comes to light that suggests that position is wrong, then the position will change to reflect the new findings and thus the consensus will change accordingly.

 

What you are purporting is not questioning an assumption regardless of any evidence that flies contrary to it. That is not fact, that's dogma.

 

 No, you simply dismiss facts that prove you wrong.

 

Actually, we're basing our facts on the available evidence that supports it and making our case for it.

 

You have repeatedly dismissed evidence that suggest you might be wrong, while touting your own viewpoint as "fact".

 

Epler confirms that Viddasala was the leader, which proves the entire operation had her as the one agent running it, which contradicts Qunari culture. Weekes also confirms that the Qunari society cuts saarebas off from magic, whereas Viddasala was feeding them lyrium, which again contradicts Qunari culture.

 

Epler states that the Viddasala is the leader of that particular operation, but nowhere have we ever been told that Qunari culture does not permit that degree of oversight and authority to be granted to someone in a supervisor role.

 

If being placed in a supervisory role that lead you to command large groups of people wasn't allowed under the Qun, the Triumvirate would not exist, nor would leaders of particular contingents, such as both Sten and Bull who the lore has stated have been in command over subordinates.

 

The Qunari try to deny the Saarebas access to lyrium and quell their magic because they fear it and because they don't want it getting out of control. That does not however mean that they have no place for magic or never intend to use the Saarebas. It's been shown in the lore that when the Qunari do let them loose and allow the chain to be relaxed, they are permitted to exercise and bring their full might to bear on their enemies.

 

Weekes' statements thus show that the Qunari are serious here. The gloves have come off and they are prepared to bend their normal rules, allowing the Saarebas to overclock on lyrium because they are intending to bring their full might to bear against their enemies.

 

And since it bears noting, you've once again refused to provide an actual quote as requested. Citation needed.

 

You're lying. I have always stated that the Qunari we fought in Trespasser were real Qunari trying to start a war. My argument is that they did so without authorization from the Triumvirate.

 

Which is bending over backwards to deny that these were the actions of the real Qunari acting as part of the Qunari faction, and rather claiming it was merely another rogue faction. Weekes rebuked both himself and the writers for almost chickening out with this approach, before stating that they instead wanted to double-down on the idea the Qunari would start a war and "own it".

 

How can you deny Weekes' own words about this, as well as the context and clarification he provided?

 

Par Vollen wasn't planning any strike on the South! That's the point! This was all just Viddasala's insane idea in order to start a massive war between Par Vollen and the rest of Thedas.

Not only would the gaatlok have failed to kill anyone important, but even if all heads of state were removed somehow, new ones would replace them instantly, as has been demonstrated in the past. Even a disorganized population can band together to rebel against a common enemy. Par Vollen will face a protracted war regardless. They know perfectly well that they can't attack the South until Tevinter is dealt with first. Once they have the mainland, then they can walk back in to Rivain, and push South through Antiva and Nevarra. Then the Free Marches. Then Ferelden by ship. Then finally Orlais.

 

I'm sorry, did you seriously just claim that conducting a mass decapitation strike against the Thedas equivalent of the UN, as well as arranging to wipe out countless heads of state and leaders elsewhere via similar means, would "not kill anyone important".

 

I guess all assassins, terrorists and those who've launched bloody coup attempts to overthrow leaders feel extremely foolish now, because they failed to realise that after wiping out everyone in the halls of power, Ned and janitorial staff can immediately step into replace those lost, with zero interruption whatsoever in regular operations.

 

If there exists a universe and version of Game of Thrones where everything went smoothly after a leader died, that must be exceptionally dull and the people akin to sedate zombies... as it is, I don't think any real world scenario would plays out like something from the Neutral Planet.

 

But an assault that spans all of Thedas simultaneously? Ridiculous. There's no way they would be able to hold any country they struck with the surprise attack. Viddasala was out of her mind.

 

If only they had access to a portal network to allow them to cover vast distances rapidly, establish footholds on multiple fronts, or strike hard and then retreat before the enemy realises what has happened. Maybe contained in some kind of magical mirror type object?

 

Pity nothing like that exists, eh?

 

Also, why do you assume the invasion was intended to be immediate and followed by full-scale occupation? The plan seems to have been to destablise the region by decapitating all the leaders in one fell swoop, then using the Eluvians to establish footholds and beachheads with which to launch their actual assault on the rest of Thedas from that point onwards.

 

They weren't intending to occupy the entire South right out of the gate, they needed to first try to get into a good position with which to dominate the game of Risk they were playing, preferably by taking whatever equates to Australia on the Thedas version.
 

We were told this by Viddasala, who lied about other things as well. She claimed Par Vollen decided its action when they saw the Breach: kill the leaders and spare those who toil. This was a lie. Iron Bull confirms in his first meeting that Par Vollen wanted information so it can determine if invasion is required to stop the Breach. Par Vollen knew that the Breach was sealed. Viddasala said the Inquisition worked for Fen'Harel, and that Solas founded the Inquisition. Both lies. She said Par Vollen left the South to curb the Inquisitor's magic. Another lie, as Par Vollen actively worked with the Inquisition in the two year gap. She said now that the "gentle path" was foiled they would now take the "way of blades". Another lie. There was no effort from Par Vollen to attack the South. She was a liar. She lied to you. She lied to her followers. She lied to her superiors.

 

Oh, so she was a lying liar, who lied!

 

Well, that explains everything... don't provide actual sources, evidence or anything that would confirm that assertion. Simply claim she's a liar, that seems like all the evidence we need to concede that she was playing us false.

 

I think we need to rename this topic to Citation Need: The Thread.

[robertthebard]

Consensus does not determine fact.

My side has numerous people as well. Again, number means nothing. Fact is fact regardless of how many believe in it.
 

No, you simply dismiss facts that prove you wrong.
 

Epler confirms that Viddasala was the leader, which proves the entire operation had her as the one agent running it, which contradicts Qunari culture. Weekes also confirms that the Qunari society cuts saarebas off from magic, whereas Viddasala was feeding them lyrium, which again contradicts Qunari culture.

Citations needed: Specifically the source material that says that the Qunari never put a single agent in charge of an operation. Especially if it's going to explain Sten in Origins and the Arishok in DA 2, invasion of Kirkwall notwithstanding, it's not like the entirety of the ruling body of the Qunari were in Kirkwall.
 

You're lying. I have always stated that the Qunari we fought in Trespasser were real Qunari trying to start a war. My argument is that they did so without authorization from the Triumvirate.

You're delusional, we have Weekes in the interview in the OP telling us a completely different story. You see, for your "facts" to be factual, that would mean that they weren't real Qunari, but an offshoot or rogue faction.
 

Par Vollen wasn't planning any strike on the South! That's the point! This was all just Viddasala's insane idea in order to start a massive war between Par Vollen and the rest of Thedas.

That's what you keep telling us, despite what Weekes says. However, the fact that IF you're correct, Weekes is wrong. Apparently you don't know what "going rogue" means. It means to act w/out authorization. Go ahead, tell me again how that's not what it means, so that we can dismiss you out of hand for being way under informed to be involved in this discussion.

Not only would the gaatlok have failed to kill anyone important, but even if all heads of state were removed somehow, new ones would replace them instantly, as has been demonstrated in the past. Even a disorganized population can band together to rebel against a common enemy. Par Vollen will face a protracted war regardless. They know perfectly well that they can't attack the South until Tevinter is dealt with first. Once they have the mainland, then they can walk back in to Rivain, and push South through Antiva and Nevarra. Then the Free Marches. Then Ferelden by ship. Then finally Orlais.

Ironically enough, the game tells us a very different story, which leaves me, yet again, believing that you haven't played Trespasser.

But an assault that spans all of Thedas simultaneously? Ridiculous. There's no way they would be able to hold any country they struck with the surprise attack. Viddasala was out of her mind.

Yet again, the game tells us a very different story than the one you're telling here, again, leaving me believing that you didn't play Trespasser.

We were told this by Viddasala, who lied about other things as well. She claimed Par Vollen decided its action when they saw the Breach: kill the leaders and spare those who toil. This was a lie. Iron Bull confirms in his first meeting that Par Vollen wanted information so it can determine if invasion is required to stop the Breach. Par Vollen knew that the Breach was sealed. Viddasala said the Inquisition worked for Fen'Harel, and that Solas founded the Inquisition. Both lies. She said Par Vollen left the South to curb the Inquisitor's magic. Another lie, as Par Vollen actively worked with the Inquisition in the two year gap. She said now that the "gentle path" was foiled they would now take the "way of blades". Another lie. There was no effort from Par Vollen to attack the South. She was a liar. She lied to you. She lied to her followers. She lied to her superiors.

You mean, just before a Qun loyal IB turns on us, hmm, the plot thickens... Oh yea, I remember now, qunari are stupid, and don't know how to read the reports they get...
 

No, I wrote that it wasn't part of any official invasion attempt. That Viddasala gave orders to invade means that invasion was part of her scheme, but Par Vollen had no involvement and no plans to invade. So either it wasn't an official invasion, meaning unauthorized, or in your theory it was authorized and part of the invasion.

Your side is the one that has to make up its mind.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have made up my mind: I have decided that you're basing your whole argument on youtube videos and "but my qunari wouldn't do that", since that's the only way we can still be having this discussion. 

I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. I made no such argument. My argument is this:

1. Viddasala's scheme was not authorized because of the many canon reasons I already listed in this thread.

You mean all those things that run counter to Word of God?

2. Viddasala's scheme involved a sneak attack and invasion, regardless of what side of the debate you're on.

3. An invasion is an invasion, authorized or not. My argument is that none of Viddasala's actions against the South were authorized.

An argument that you have yet to support with solid evidence, but have insisted on head canon as an explanation. "But the letter..." isn't evidence that counters an actual statement from the guy that is now the lead writer, and the writer of IB. It is an act of desperation to cling to the remote hope that BW will change their minds and let the Qunari run like you think they do. Especially running with "all of the Qunari are real, except Vidassala, she's rogue", which is what would be required for her to be acting w/out authorization. I know, I know, the Qunari never lie, except when they do, right?

[Dai Grepher]

While consensus does not always determine the facts,

Always? It never determines the facts!

it does suggest that based on the evidence at hand that as been scrutinised, the overwhelming majority have come to support a position based on those findings.

Rubbish. Those in that majority can believe the same thing based on their own individual reasons, none of which have to be based on findings. Much of it could be based on personal bias.

When new evidence comes to light that suggests that position is wrong, then the position will change to reflect the new findings and thus the consensus will change accordingly.

Or they'll write, "that's not evidence, that's your headcanon".

What you are purporting is not questioning an assumption regardless of any evidence that flies contrary to it. That is not fact, that's dogma.

No, your side is posting arguments and I'm disproving them. That's called refutation.

Actually, we're basing our facts on the available evidence that supports it and making our case for it.

Your side is writing that Weekes said words he never said, like "Viddasala", or "Triumvirate", or "authorized".

You're suggesting that because Weekes said "real Qunari" that automatically means they were ordered and authorized to attack the South by the Triumvirate. I disproved that suggestion with multiple examples (Sten, DA2 Arishok, Tallis).

You have repeatedly dismissed evidence that suggest you might be wrong, while touting your own viewpoint as "fact".

Responding to what you post and proving it wrong is not dismissing evidence, it's refuting incorrect arguments. I never touted my own viewpoint as fact. I touted canon facts from the game as fact and argued why the facts point to Dragon's Breath being unauthorized.

Epler states that the Viddasala is the leader of that particular operation, but nowhere have we ever been told that Qunari culture does not permit that degree of oversight and authority to be granted to someone in a supervisor role.

Even Hissrad confirms that the Arigena makes gaatlok, and he said he can't believe that the Arigena would let that much gaatlok out of Par Vollen if you take him to the Forgotten Temple basement. We later find that Viddasala was making her own gaatlok. A direct violation of the Qun, as only the Arigena branch is allowed to make gaatlok. Just as only a male and member of the Arishok branch can order a soldier in a military fashion. Viddasala was acting outside of her role and her gender, and even the mere fact that she was the only agent running the operation proves it wasn't official, since the Qunari would appoint multiple agents to specific roles to make sure everything worked as it was supposed to. Having one agent's attention divided among several different tasks, half of which are outside her purpose, makes no sense.

If being placed in a supervisory role that lead you to command large groups of people wasn't allowed under the Qun, the Triumvirate would not exist, nor would leaders of particular contingents, such as both Sten and Bull who the lore has stated have been in command over subordinates.

Those are small tasks, not large operations, such as the opening attack to an invasion, as your side alleges was the case.

The Qunari try to deny the Saarebas access to lyrium and quell their magic because they fear it and because they don't want it getting out of control. That does not however mean that they have no place for magic or never intend to use the Saarebas. It's been shown in the lore that when the Qunari do let them loose and allow the chain to be relaxed, they are permitted to exercise and bring their full might to bear on their enemies.

I didn't write that they don't use saarebas. I wrote that they don't purposely expose them to magic, and that is from Weekes in the conference video. Yet Viddasala was doing this, and by the looks of it, she may have been planning to turn to red lyrium next.

Weekes' statements thus show that the Qunari are serious here. The gloves have come off and they are prepared to bend their normal rules, allowing the Saarebas to overclock on lyrium because they are intending to bring their full might to bear against their enemies.

He made no reference to Par Vollen or the Qunari culture being willing to do this. He stated that the culture cuts them off from magic, not that they allow it or would ever allow it. He only referenced that DA characters are reckless in this way. Ambiguous, but likely a reference to Viddasala alone.

Also, as I argued before, why would the Triumvirate experiment with this during an invasion? Feeding lyrium to saarebas is a risk. Why take this risk during something as important as invasion? Why wouldn't they test this out on Seheron against Tevinter first?

[Dai Grepher]

And since it bears noting, you've once again refused to provide an actual quote as requested. Citation needed.

I posted quotes from the conference video pages back. You ignored them then, I have no reason to think you won't ignore them again if I re-post them.

Which is bending over backwards to deny that these were the actions of the real Qunari acting as part of the Qunari faction, and rather claiming it was merely another rogue faction.

I just typed the words that they were real Qunari that were part of the Qunari culture. What the heck are posting about?!?! I'm not bending any which way. You're acting like there's no such thing a authorization! They were real Qunari who were not ordered to attack the South! Viddasala told them to do it, and she hid this from the Triumvirate and other agents. That doesn't make them a rogue faction.

Weekes rebuked both himself and the writers for almost chickening out with this approach, before stating that they instead wanted to double-down on the idea the Qunari would start a war and "own it".

Weekes defined "rogue group" and "offshoot" as those who were not part of the Qunari culture at all. He's glad they didn't make them some outside group.

How can you deny Weekes' own words about this, as well as the context and clarification he provided?

I agree with Weekes' own words. I deny your deliberate misinterpretation about what he said.

I'm sorry, did you seriously just claim that conducting a mass decapitation strike against the Thedas equivalent of the UN, as well as arranging to wipe out countless heads of state and leaders elsewhere via similar means, would "not kill anyone important".

I claimed that it wouldn't work. I know Viddasala wanted it to kill them, but it wouldn't have actually worked. The gaatlok would have blown up, and the all the lords and ladies in their respective places would have said, "What in Maker's name was that?". Then servants would have run in and said their are fires everywhere. Then the lords and ladies would have their guards escort them to safety while more servants doused the fires. Viddasala's plan was a pipe dream.

I guess all assassins, terrorists and those who've launched bloody coup attempts to overthrow leaders feel extremely foolish now, because they failed to realise that after wiping out everyone in the halls of power, Ned and janitorial staff can immediately step into replace those lost, with zero interruption whatsoever in regular operations.

When Bann Connobar was killed by Mythal, Connobar's general, Sarim Cousland, stepped up and took control of the bannorn. And Connobar was without heir. Any current lord or lady who would happen to die could be replaced by a family member or the highest ranking officer of the court's soldiers, even if temporarily until order was restored.

If there exists a universe and version of Game of Thrones where everything went smoothly after a leader died, that must be exceptionally dull and the people akin to sedate zombies... as it is, I don't think any real world scenario would plays out like something from the Neutral Planet.

Cailan died. Anora and Loghain took over. Eamon fell ill, Isolde and Teagan took over. Celene can die, Gaspard can take over. The King of Nevarra can die, the next of dozens of Pentaghasts can take over. And so on.

If only they had access to a portal network to allow them to cover vast distances rapidly, establish footholds on multiple fronts, or strike hard and then retreat before the enemy realises what has happened. Maybe contained in some kind of magical mirror type object?

Yeah if only they did, but they didn't! Ferelden has one eluvian in the Dragon Bone Wastes, one in Soldier's Peak, and one in Skyhold. Orlais has one in Halamshiral, and that's it.

Pity nothing like that exists, eh?

Indeed. But even if it did, what makes you think the Triumvirate would trust such means? Those mirrors could be cut off at any time for all they know, which would strand their armies and cut their positions off from reinforcements.

Also, why do you assume the invasion was intended to be immediate and followed by full-scale occupation?

Because the more time you give to the South the more likely it is to recover from the initial attack. If all places are hit at once, then all must be quickly conquered at once.

[Dai Grepher]

The plan seems to have been to destablise the region by decapitating all the leaders in one fell swoop, then using the Eluvians to establish footholds and beachheads with which to launch their actual assault on the rest of Thedas from that point onwards.

All leaders at once? Impossible on its face. Nothing guarantees that all leaders will be in proximity to the placed gaatlok barrels at the same time. Nothing guarantees that the gaatlok will actually kill anyone once detonated. A Divine Vivienne for example would easily survive such an attack. And it's laughable if any Qunari seriously believed the Inquisitor would be killed by it. Nothing guarantees the leaders won't be immediately replaced. There weren't enough eluvians in the proper places to facilitate an assault. You would need units all over the South. Take Ferelden alone. You'd need Antaam units in Redcliffe, Highever, Dragon's Peak, Soldier's Peak, Denerim, Amaranthine, Waking Sea, Gwaren, South Reach, and most definitely Skyhold.

They weren't intending to occupy the entire South right out of the gate, they needed to first try to get into a good position with which to dominate the game of Risk they were playing, preferably by taking whatever equates to Australia on the Thedas version.

Then there's no point hitting all courts at once, because those will recover by the time the Qunari manage to take whatever areas they invade. In which case, those courts will band together under the Chantry and declare an Exalted March to drive the Qunari out yet again. Only that time there would be no truce.

Oh, so she was a lying liar, who lied!

Well, that explains everything... don't provide actual sources

I provided sources directly after each claim. Read my posts.

Simply claim she's a liar, that seems like all the evidence we need to concede that she was playing us false.

I proved she lied. You on the other hand claim the Triumvirate lied in the letter they wrote. You provide no evidence of this.

Citations needed: Specifically the source material that says that the Qunari never put a single agent in charge of an operation.

Already cited it. The culture is set up to have the Ariqun branch handle administration and spying, the Arishok branch handle military action, and the Arigena to handle the creation of weapons and gaatlok. Yet Viddasala, a high-ranking agent of the Ben-Hassrath, was engaging in duties outside of her role and her gender, such as creation of gaatlok and ordering Antaam soldiers into a military position and wait to invade.

Especially if it's going to explain Sten in Origins and the Arishok in DA 2, invasion of Kirkwall notwithstanding, it's not like the entirety of the ruling body of the Qunari were in Kirkwall.

Sten was sent to observe the Blight and report his observations. He did that. The Arishok was sent to recover the Tome of Koslun. He tried to. He can even succeed in a specific case. These are single objective missions. That is not the same as a massive assassination and invasion attempt that uses magic mirrors, and feed mined lyrium to saarebas so they can learn to create the Veil like an ancient elvhen mage is rumored to have done.

You're delusional, we have Weekes in the interview in the OP telling us a completely different story. You see, for your "facts" to be factual, that would mean that they weren't real Qunari, but an offshoot or rogue faction.

No it doesn't. Weekes only said they were real Qunari. He never said they were authorized to attack the South.

That's what you keep telling us, despite what Weekes says. However, the fact that IF you're correct, Weekes is wrong.

Nope. Weekes never said they were authorized. So both Weekes and the canon are consistent. They were real Qunari who were not authorized to attack the South. This is a simple concept to understand. If you are incapable of that then you should seek assistance at your local community collage.

Apparently you don't know what "going rogue" means. It means to act w/out authorization. Go ahead, tell me again how that's not what it means, so that we can dismiss you out of hand for being way under informed to be involved in this discussion.

Weekes defined it as a group outside of the Qunari. So you are in conflict with Weekes' statements. You deny the words of the creator.

Ironically enough, the game tells us a very different story, which leaves me, yet again, believing that you haven't played Trespasser.

You believe many things that are incorrect, so that doesn't surprise me.

[Dai Grepher]

You mean, just before a Qun loyal IB turns on us, hmm, the plot thickens...

Nope. The first set of lies came in the Vir Dirthara, where Hissrad helps you kill Qunari despite the fact that Viddasala tell them to kill the Inquisitor and then meet her at the Darvaarad. The second set of lies came after Hissrad was killed.

Did you even play Trespasser?

Oh yea, I remember now, qunari are stupid, and don't know how to read the reports they get...

Hissrad wasn't receiving reports. Or was Josephine lying in her letter as well?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have made up my mind: I have decided that you're basing your whole argument on youtube videos and "but my qunari wouldn't do that", since that's the only way we can still be having this discussion.

You're avoiding the question because you have no answer for it. Your theory is exposed as nonsensical.

You mean all those things that run counter to Word of God?

Weekes and Epler confirm that the operation was not authorized.

An argument that you have yet to support with solid evidence

You ignore all evidence that proves you wrong because you can't refute it.

"But the letter..." isn't evidence that counters an actual statement from the guy that is now the lead writer, and the writer of IB.

It doesn't have to counter his words because his words do not contradict the letter.

It is an act of desperation to cling to the remote hope that BW will change their minds and let the Qunari run like you think they do.

End of Trespasser: No war between Par Vollen and the South. Alliance still in place. Triumvirate requests Divine Victoria's aid in toppling Tevinter.

[thats1evildude]

Guys, I concede. Clearly the Viddasala wasn't acting on official orders from the Triuumverate.

 

That's because she was really A HYDRA AGENT ALL ALONG!!!

[Almostfaceman]

You I ignore all evidence that proves you me wrong because you I can't refute it.

 

Fixed that for ya.