1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Hiemoth]

You keep saying the Viddasala went rogue. If she went rogue, she'd be a Tal-Vashot.

 

 

 

Qunari = Qunari loyal to the Qun examples: Arishok, Sten, Viddasala, Saarath, Ketojan, Iron Bull (if the Chargers were sacrificed)

 

Tal-Vashot = Qunari that left the Qun examples: Salit, Iron Bull (if Dreadnaught was sacrificed)

 

Vashot = Qunari not born under the Qun examples: The Inquisitor (Adaar), the other members of the Valo-Kas mercenary group.

 

Where does Tallis currently fit in to this? Not a criticism, I just realized I am not quite certain.

[thats1evildude]

Tallis is Tal-Vashoth.

[Gilli]

Where does Tallis currently fit in to this? Not a criticism, I just realized I am not quite certain.

 

She's a Viddathari.

 

Members of any other race who adheres to the teachings of the Qun (humans, elves and even dwarves) are called Viddathari.

[vertigomez]

Tallis is Tal-Vashoth.

I thought Tallis was still Qunari? Just a doubtful one.

And viddathari, 'cause she's an elf.

[Hiemoth]

Tallis is Tal-Vashoth.

 

But she is still loyal to the Qun, she just took actions to protect those in it.

 

She's a Viddathari.

 

Viddathari are still Qunari.

[Reznore57]

Tallis is Tal-Vashoth.

 

I don't think so?

I think she was after a Tal vashoth mentor of hers , and was on shaky ground with the Qun , but I don't remember her making a decision one way or the other at the end of the DLC?

[thats1evildude]

She's a Viddathari.

 

But she left the Qun, so now she's Tal-Vashoth.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But she left the Qun, so now she's Tal-Vashoth.

When did Tallis leave the Qun? She was a part of it during DAI and Trespasser. 

[IllustriousT]

I think Tallis was considered Tal-Vashoth at the end of Redemption. 

 

Nevermind the wiki says the following:

 

 

 

• In spite of what she hints at the end of Redemption, Tallis, if she was telling the truth about her future, did not become a Tal-Vashoth. If she had, she would never have known about Salit's defection, let alone Ariqun's reaction to it.

[Gilli]

But she left the Qun, so now she's Tal-Vashoth.

 

She didn't leave the Qun, she went back after she got the list of the Qunari spies.

 

The Inquisitor can find a letter of correspondence between Tallis and Saarath. Saarath gives Tallis advice on how to find peace in the Qun even though Saarath heavily revises the letter as time goes by.

[vertigomez]

Yeah, by the end of her webseries Tallis royally flubs her mission and says something to the effect of, "Next time you see me, I may be Tal-Vashoth." But it's ambiguous.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, by the end of her webseries Tallis royally flubs her mission and says something to the effect of, "Next time you see me, I may be Tal-Vashoth." But it's ambiguous.

It's not ambiguous, since Dragon Age: Revelation occurs sometime between 9:31 and 9:34 Dragon, before the Mark of the Assassin DLC and Inquisition where she is a part of the Qun. 

 

Also from her wiki page:

 

The following day, she buries the dead along with Josmael and Nyree, before saying her farewells. Josmael gives her a broken phylactery that belonged to Cairn, as a keepsake. When Nyree inquires about how the Qunari will react when they discover the Saarebas was killed, Tallis hints that she might defect and become a Tal-Vashoth. Eventually however she returns to the Qun and regains her rank of Tallis.

[Gilli]

Yeah, by the end of her webseries Tallis royally flubs her mission and says something to the effect of, "Next time you see me, I may be Tal-Vashoth." But it's ambiguous.

 

I haven't watch the webseries yet, but doesn't the series play before DA2? I just looked at her wiki page and there it says:

 

Whether Hawke decides to help Tallis or not, after escaping, Hawke eventually confronts both Prosper and Salit. While Hawke distracts Prosper, Tallis steals the scroll Salit was handing over to Prosper, which contains information on various Qunari sleeper agents throughout Thedas, even those who have left the Qun, the duke having not had a chance to be appraised of its true significance. Prosper and his troops kill Salit and his Tal-Vashoth but are slain after a grueling battle by Hawke and their companions. Tallis takes a moment to mourn her former mentor and reveals to Hawke that if the scroll fell into human hands, these agents and everyone they know would be persecuted and killed. Though the Ariqun believed they knew the risks, Tallis feared for the agents' families and friends. Tallis then passes Hawke an actual jewel called the Heart of the Many before departing from the Champion's company. It is likely that Tallis returned the scroll to the Qunari, as her name has surfaced in a number of reports of Ben-Hassrath activity along the northern coast, including in Minrathous.

[Kurogane335]

Well, "Tallis" is her name like "Sten" was for "Arishok" so it is possible that those mentions of a "Tallis" aren't talking about her. Saarath letter, however is explicitly addressed to "the elf who is Tallis" or something like that. Now, whether she is still Qunari or as turned Tal-Vashoth but for whatever reason Saarath wasn't informed of such outcome, it is hard to know.

[Medhia_Nox]

I get why this might suck for fans that liked the Qun...but they were never all that likable or sympathetic to begin with. This is hardly turning them into "purely evil for the sake of it".

Why would fans of the Qunari be unhappy about this... this is how the qunari are. 

 

- We order you to go and stop the magical problem in Southern Thedas.

- You did not stop the magical problem in southern Thedas.

- Therefore, you did not do as ordered.  

 

The Qunari did NOT order Viddisala to be turned to stone and utterly fail in her attempts while potentially losing the secrets of gaatlok to southern Thedas.

 

Therefor, Viddisala was not acting on the orders of the Qun.

 

NOTE:  Yes, "I" know that the Qunari spew a bunch of sophist bullsh-t... but this is how the Qun is practiced.

[In Exile]

I think the problem with the mission in question is that while I completely agree that the intent of the story was what is described above, the implementation of the story was horrid. And I don't even mean because of the weird presentation issue.

The Chargers were a military unit hired by the Inquisition for specifically take part in combat missions. While suicide missions are not a part of the agreement, there is an inherent risk in every single mission. This was a military mission where they are tasked in protecting a larger troop and, because of emotional ties, the IB decides to pull them for a field and thus sacrificing other allied military units in play. This wasn't a question of Qunari philosophy or anything like that, but rather that the Chargers were shown to be a really unreliable force in crucial military tasks, which I guess is fair for mercenaries.

To give a comparative example, let's say Orlais had ten scouts guarding a mountain pass where a hundred Inquisition troops were moving through, relying on the protection of those scouts. Then suddenly enemy troops move to ambush the Inquisition troops with the numerically overmatched scouts being the only people capable of buying time for the Inquisition troops to get to safety and whose very task being there is to protect those Inquisition troops. In this case if the Orleasian captain made the decision to save the scouts because he actually really cares about them and knowingly cause the death of the Inquistion troops who they were there to protect, would anyone even thinking about praising what a good captain that dude was?

But it is a question of Qunari philosophy - you even frame it that way: as being about duty and obligation.

I don't think that's true, because the Chargers simply aren't mercenaries to the IB. They're effectively the foster family of outcasts that he sorrounded himself with on what amounts to his sanctioned exile from Par Vollen and Seheron. This is a question of Qunari philosophies - because the IB would not have let his troop die for what he saw as a stupid plan. It's arguable he would have even embarked on the mission if it were up to him alone. So I think you've misframed the issue from the start - the Chargers are not just a military unit and they did not necessarily sign up to get massacred (or rather, the IB did not sign up to get them massacred separately).

The Orlesian captain example works, but not for the reason that you think. That's also a choice between loyalty, duty and, essentially, saving your friends. It's not about being a good soldier - it's about the IB being a foster father (or brother) to this group of soldiers who happen to make their living through mercenary work.

[vertigomez]

It's not ambiguous, since Dragon Age: Revelation occurs sometime between 9:31 and 9:34 Dragon, before the Mark of the Assassin DLC and Inquisition where she is a part of the Qun. 
 
Also from her wiki page:
 
The following day, she buries the dead along with Josmael and Nyree, before saying her farewells. Josmael gives her a broken phylactery that belonged to Cairn, as a keepsake. When Nyree inquires about how the Qunari will react when they discover the Saarebas was killed, Tallis hints that she might defect and become a Tal-Vashoth. Eventually however she returns to the Qun and regains her rank of Tallis.

I haven't watch the webseries yet, but doesn't the series play before DA2? I just looked at her wiki page and there it says:

Whoops, thanks. I couldn't remember if Redemption took place before or after MotA.

[Dai Grepher]

It is, though.

No it isn't. Just like rejecting the alliance isn't telling him to stay loyal to the Qun either.

You need to appreciate the conflict. The Qun demands that he sacrificed everything he values for the sake of his mission. He hesitates - he asks whether he should.

He didn't ask whether he should. Where are you getting this from?

Telling him to sacrifice the Chargers for the sake of the whole (because it will complete the mission, because the alliance has value) tells him that what matters is the mission and the role you've undertaken to complete it, no matter the cost.

Not exactly. It says that you have to protect those you are sworn to protect. The Chargers had a duty to hold that hill to protect the dreadnought. They abandon their duty, and those they swore to protect will die. If the Chargers had been better, they'd still be alive, and Bull still would have betrayed them and the Inquisitor in Trespasser.

This all boils down to encouraging the cowardly Bull to abandon the Qun and latch onto the Chargers and the Inquisition instead. If you didn't do that, then he blindly follows the Qun to the death. He is so cowardly that he would rather be dead than free.

The Inquisitor might have plenty of reasons for wanting to let the Chargers die, but the pragmatic justifications all come down to duty.

Duty to what though? To some half-baked philosophy or to follow through on your word?

I don't get it - Sten straight up tells you the Qunari do not value an alliance or treaty all the way back in DAO. It has nothing to do with evil: it is their value system. They certainly do not do it out of malice. If you didn't think they were portrayed as being villains in DA2 then I cannot see what has changed in DAI.

You have such a talent for being wrong. Sten said they do not value treaties. That doesn't mean they don't value alliances that forward mutual interests. Of course the Triumvirate valued the alliance and wanted to keep it. They saw it as advancing mutual interests. The second they don't need it anymore, they will end it, as is the case with all alliances (and the Inquisition is free to do the same), but that doesn't mean they never valued it. And they preferred to keep the alliance than attack the South at that time, so Trespasser doesn't reflect poorly on the Triumvirate's credibility, just their oversight practices.

There's no alliance with the Qunari. They have no concept of such a thing. Why do you think the IB is so apprehensive about it when the quest starts?

Because he's the Cowardly Bull. The Qunari absolutely understand the meaning of alliances. They just understand that an alliance is only worth keeping so long as it benefits you.

As to their being evil, all I can think of is the deluge of threads about them being toned down or made nicer by way of how the IB suggests they could see Krem (and he doesn't even say it's a positive - just watch his face and hesitation when Krem lights up at how the Qun might treat him better).

So what? That seems more like a gripe that BioWare is softening the "evil" Qunari in order to be politically correct and appease a certain minority of customers in the real world.

The Qunari would arguably make life a lot better for a lot of people - elves certainly. The poorest of Thedas probably - they would move up on the social ladder.

So what? Wouldn't make them not evil.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Whoops, thanks. I couldn't remember if Redemption took place before or after MotA.

You're welcome. Glad I could help.

[Reznore57]

The main thing I'm afraid of in DA4 is Qunari getting too mixed up with magic and high fantasy plots with ancient elves and whatever.

The way they treat their mages says it all , they'll go overboard  and no amount of Qunari philosophy will make them look good if they start maiming and butchering people left and rigght  with no thoughts given because magic is bad.

[midnight tea]

The main thing I'm afraid of in DA4 is Qunari getting too mixed up with magic and high fantasy plots with ancient elves and whatever.

The way they treat their mages says it all , they'll go overboard  and no amount of Qunari philosophy will make them look good if they start maiming and butchering people left and rigght  with no thoughts given because magic is bad.

 

Well, you can't forget that Viddassala's major focus (prior or alongside the Dragon's Breah mission) is curbing magic and researching elven past that would help the Qunari strengthen the Veil. That's why they were in places like Vir Dirthara in the first place.

 

Also - I'm not really sure why Qunari shouldn't be "mixed up" with magic and high fantasy, when they're a magical race (that might have originated form some magical experiments) from a world that was once merged with realm of pure magic, and the one who pushed it away now is hell-bent on bringing it back?

[Dai Grepher]

"Viddasala's actions and reaction to the Triumvirate's reply is proof that she was Tal-Vashoth."

"She's acting outside the Qun. She has no rank."

"Hissrad and his stupid choice to side with the failure of a Tal-Vashoth Viddasala"

"So what is Hissrad's choice when this obvious Tal-Vashoth calls on him to kill the Inquisitor?"

You're like a politician. But not even a good one, really.

Typical Baconer. Quoting things out of context from different threads and drawing all the wrong conclusions.

I would like to see these in context, please. Post links to these quotes. Looks to me that I was stating my own personal opinion about her based on her actions during Trespasser, not what her official designation was before Trespasser, which is what we are discussing here.
 

You keep saying the Viddasala went rogue. If she went rogue, she'd be a Tal-Vashot.

But you are confusing at what point she becomes Tal-Vashoth. This thread is, well... a lie. But this thread attempts to claim that Viddasala was authorized to carry out Dragon's Breath, and was therefore not rogue or Tal-Vashoth at any point.

My claim has always been that Viddasala was an official Qunari who acted without the Triumvirate's knowledge to re-purpose official Qunari to carry out her own personal hidden agendas. In doing this, and in defying the will of the Triumvirate by intercepting and destroying their letter, she became Tal-Vashoth.

Now, it's my personal opinion that her actions during Trespasser made her Tal-Vashoth. Whether she was officially Tal-Vashoth or not is up to the Triumvirate to decide, but seeing as how they disavowed her, it's likely that they declared her Tal-Vashoth off-screen after learning of all her violations.
 

Qunari = Qunari loyal to the Qun examples: Arishok, Sten, Viddasala, Saarath, Ketojan, Iron Bull (if the Chargers were sacrificed)
 
Tal-Vashot = Qunari that left the Qun examples: Salit, Iron Bull (if Dreadnaught was sacrificed)

Not correct. First, Hissrad is Iron Bull's designation. If Hissrad remains loyal to the Qun, he remains Hissrad. If not, he becomes Iron Bull.

Viddasala likewise was always Viddasala, until she decided to defy the Triumvirate. At that point I believe she became Tal-Vashoth.

Again, I'm not Qunari, so I can't determine that she was Tal-Vashoth at that point of defying the Triumvirate, but seeing as how they disavowed her, she was likely declared Tal-Vashoth by the Triumvirate.

[Reznore57]

Well, you can't forget that Viddassala's major focus (prior or alongside the Dragon's Breah mission) is curbing magic and researching elven past that would help the Qunari strengthen the Veil. That's why they were in places like Vir Dirthara in the first place.

 

Also - I'm not really sure why Qunari shouldn't be "mixed up" with magic and high fantasy, when they're a magical race (that might have originated form some magical experiments) from a world that was once merged with realm of pure magic, and the one who pushed it away now is hell-bent on bringing it back?

 

Because Qunari are cartoon villain when it comes to magic.

Remember that plot with the mage in DA2?Who killed himself because he spend 2 days away from his jailor?

Then said jailor wants to kill you just because you're a mage and dared talk to him , or because you spend 30 scd with an unwatched mage and lord knows what might have happened?

 

This is the Qun and magic.

They think people can catch demons like you catch the flu.

 

There's not even a good explanation as to why Sten and the Arishock are cool with a mage pc , if I remember correctly the best excuse one of the writer came up with was well they see you as an "unicorn".

Meaning they couldn't make some special content for a mage pc and the delicate relationship with member of the Qun.Which is fair enough.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Reznore57:  Totally disagree.  Here is the Qunari argument. 

 

- Unsafe things must be controlled. 

- Magic is an unsafe thing.

- Magic must be controlled. 

 

Followed by:

 

- Mages contain magic.

- Magic is unsafe.

- Unsafe things must be controlled.

- The magic in mages must be controlled. 

 

Continued with: 

 

- Spirits are magic.

- Magic is unsafe.

- Unsafe things must be controlled.

- Spirits must be controlled. 

 

And since spirits cannot be controlled efficiently - they must be repelled.

 

The projection of what they do to Saarebas as "evil" is simply a modern, human - probably Western - view.  Without ANY indication - we must believe that Katojen was brain washed because we cannot perceive ourselves thinking like him.  A shame - since we ask for "alien" races that don't think like humans... then demand they think like humans the moment we meet them. 

 

I personally have never read the Qunari as people fearful of magic as much as they are of spirits.  The Saarebas are used to deadly efficiency - likely thanks to them reassessing the war with the South and determining that mages were essential... and turning them into focused weapons of mass destruction.  

 

What they are "afraid" of... is uncontrolled magic.  Magic they cannot snuff out at a moment's notice if desired.  That means free mages, spirits/demons, etc.  

 

The Qunari are built on nuance... and I think it goes way beyond just:  "Horned man fear magics!" 

[Hiemoth]

But it is a question of Qunari philosophy - you even frame it that way: as being about duty and obligation.

I don't think that's true, because the Chargers simply aren't mercenaries to the IB. They're effectively the foster family of outcasts that he sorrounded himself with on what amounts to his sanctioned exile from Par Vollen and Seheron. This is a question of Qunari philosophies - because the IB would not have let his troop die for what he saw as a stupid plan. It's arguable he would have even embarked on the mission if it were up to him alone. So I think you've misframed the issue from the start - the Chargers are not just a military unit and they did not necessarily sign up to get massacred (or rather, the IB did not sign up to get them massacred separately).

The Orlesian captain example works, but not for the reason that you think. That's also a choice between loyalty, duty and, essentially, saving your friends. It's not about being a good soldier - it's about the IB being a foster father (or brother) to this group of soldiers who happen to make their living through mercenary work.

 

Except this ignores the context in which those actions happen. If Iron Bull had been forced to send the Chargers on a suicide mission because the Qun required him to remove them, then the choice would happen the way you describe. However, it didn't. The plan itself wasn't even stupid, those locations needed to be secured in order to protect the dreadnought and even there IB gave the easier location for the Chargers to take over.

 

Again, the way they structured the choice wasn't about the Qunari ideology, it was about basic military discipline and action. The problem with your argument about the Orlesian captain example I presented is that you are can't remove the point about being a good soldier. In the larger context, whenever you take a military action, there needs to be a trust that those who swore to protect your back actually protect your back. Otherwise it is an act of desertion on the battle field, which the Chargers literally do if IB withdraws them from the battle. The choice isn't about Qunari values, but rather is the worth of countless of unknown lives less than the lives of a handful of familiar lives.