152 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

But Dragon Age also seems to remember that at its heart, it's a game, meant to be enjoyed.  The concepts you mentioned, faith and security vs freedom are not shown to have simple, pat answers.  Mass Effect seems more determined to be right about...whatever deep concept it's trying to convey.  Thy say "This is true and we'll make it true even if we have to take a hammer to that puzzle piece and MAKE IT FIT!!!"

That's what I meant with presenting different perspectives on the story's themes. Though I'm still missing a differentiated view on things like the attempt to get into the Golden City, all in all DA is *way* superior to ME in this.

[Iakus]

That's what I meant with presenting different perspectives on the story's themes. Though I'm still missing a differentiated view on things like the attempt to get into the Golden City, all in all DA is *way* superior to ME in this.

What we have there is an established fact:  the attempt to enter the Golden City.  But what is not truly explained is what was encountered there, what they did exactly.  In essence we are the blind men trying to identify an elephant.  The information we have is simply incomplete.

 

That actually feeds into the matter of faith in DAI.  Do you believe the Chantry version?  Tevinter's?  Corypheus'?  Is it all BS?  All seem to be on some level "true" yet they all contradict each other too.  

 

Far more interesting than "the Reapers were the good guys all along"

[Erstus]

Mass Effect but I prefer the setting of Dragon Age - The Mass Effect series was solid with the climax being disappointing. Still, the series was quite a journey.

Dragon Age: Origins was great! Unfortunately, DA 2 was mediocre and Inquisition was literal garbage. A failed MMO/Open-world hybrid. The whole title felt like a fan service and pandering to certain aspects. The story was lazy and generic, and the combat felt like pla Ying WoW with the cartoony animations, huge weapons, and ridiculous bright magic effects.

[Loyal Tevinter]

I enjoy both. In Dragon Age games I love playing as a mage and in Mass Effect I love playing Renegade characters.

[DebatableBubble]

Neither. Kotor 1 and 2 (and Old Republic).

Kinda burnt out on both series, tbh. I pay more attention to their flaws rather than their strengths. The fandom being the way it is doesn't help.

[Toasted Llama]

That's funny, technology and civilization make me feel at home and relaxed, just life real life. I hate camping, and I would hate to live in Thedas I would love to live in the ME universe, though.

 

Different strokes for different folks and all that. Not gonna lie though; I'd love to live in the ME universe as well!

 

 

Exactly because it's closer to RL, the standards of the plausible should be stricter in SF than in fantasy. Good SF extends science and technology into the unknown but keeps the known intact wherever possible.

 

This is why I find old Sci-Fi interesting; it's quite funny to see how people back in the days would've thought the future would be like, limited by their level of technology at the time (and what was considered plausible). Take Alien Absolution for example; it's set in the future, but feels so "old" because it follows the idea of the future during the time of the original Alien movie.

[Ieldra]

What we have there is an established fact:  the attempt to enter the Golden City.  But what is not truly explained is what was encountered there, what they did exactly.  In essence we are the blind men trying to identify an elephant.  The information we have is simply incomplete.

 

That actually feeds into the matter of faith in DAI.  Do you believe the Chantry version?  Tevinter's?  Corypheus'?  Is it all BS?  All seem to be on some level "true" yet they all contradict each other too.  

 

Far more interesting than "the Reapers were the good guys all along"

The thing is, everyone seems to think that this attempt was a bad idea from the start, regardless of means or motivation, and that's where I strongly disagree. I wish there was a non-villain character who thinks likewise.

[Mistic]

But Dragon Age also seems to remember that at its heart, it's a game, meant to be enjoyed.  The concepts you mentioned, faith and security vs freedom are not shown to have simple, pat answers.  Mass Effect seems more determined to be right about...whatever deep concept it's trying to convey.  Thy say "This is true and we'll make it true even if we have to take a hammer to that puzzle piece and MAKE IT FIT!!!"

 

It's typical in science-fiction stories, especially in literature. It seems many writers are tempted to include a twist, a big reveal, a secret about the past or the future of civilization/humanity, a lesson for future generations, a political, technological or philosophical agenda that proves how right it is at the end of the story, etc.

 

This is why I find old Sci-Fi interesting; it's quite funny to see how people back in the days would've thought the future would be like, limited by their level of technology at the time (and what was considered plausible). Take Alien Absolution for example; it's set in the future, but feels so "old" because it follows the idea of the future during the time of the original Alien movie.

 

The good old Zeerust. Between science marching on and changing social trends, old sci-fi can become fantasy, so far it is from the future they imagined.

 

At least Mass Effect had the good idea of including a "this changes everything" moment with the discovery of alien technology in Mars. From that moment onward, the writers can always justify that the ME setting evolved in a completely different way without looking too outdated.

[Hrungr]

No question - I like Mass Effect, but Dragon Age is easily my favorite of all the BioWare franchises...

 

With ME, the story is there, many of the companions are interesting, the combat is at least pretty fun, but certain gameplay elements keep it's replayability down for me. The Mako (poor PC controls/boring planets/dubious terrain/repetitive/the fact we even have a wheeled vehicle in a universe full of flying vehicles), the hacking (neither version was KB&M friendly), the planet scanning (repetitive/etc.).

 

Dragon Age (Origins), oddly enough, didn't hook me the first playthough. I never followed the development, only picking it up on the cheap after hearing all the good reviews it was getting. I thought it was fun, I had my heroic sacrifice, but had no plans to play it again. It was only after Awakenings came out that I was tempted to try another playthough, with a different Origin. And I think that's what hooked me. I played it again and again with different Origins and getting a little more immersed in the lore and the characters each time. And before you know it, you have over 1,000 hours invested the game and you're just playing it to try out different mods.

[AlanC9]

Mass Effect but I prefer the setting of Dragon Age - The Mass Effect series was solid with the climax being disappointing. Still, the series was quite a journey.
Dragon Age: Origins was great! Unfortunately, DA 2 was mediocre and Inquisition was literal garbage. A failed MMO/Open-world hybrid. The whole title felt like a fan service and pandering to certain aspects. The story was lazy and generic, and the combat felt like pla Ying WoW with the cartoony animations, huge weapons, and ridiculous bright magic effects.

I get not liking the open world design and the animations, and such. But what are these mysterious "aspects" that are being pandered to?

[Ieldra]

It's typical in science-fiction stories, especially in literature. It seems many writers are tempted to include a twist, a big reveal, a secret about the past or the future of civilization/humanity, a lesson for future generations, a political, technological or philosophical agenda that proves how right it is at the end of the story, etc.

In my experience, it's not typical in the way Iakus meant it. Even the not-so-good SF stories rarely put in a twist that doesn't fit the story's themes. I have a preference for written SF because it's less common for SF writers, as opposed to SF screenwriters, to put nonsense in just because it's cool or sexy.   

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  Might I suggest that your problem is in thinking that the Golden City is an actual "place"?  

 

==============

 

As for me... DA hands down. 

 

I do enjoy them both - but, for me, Mass Effect represents what I call "The Clean Future Myth" - where space buccaneers scoot around a really small solar system/galaxy/universe in their totally safe, self-sufficient, hyper-clean, environmentally friendly, impossible tech-ship - while mostly lounging about and discussing their next planetary invasion.  

 

DA has fallen several degrees since DA:I... not because I disliked the game at all, but the direction DA is taking is - for me - very similar to ME where it is bludgeoning the world with magic for the sake of "cool".  

 

If you can't tell your story after taking away sci-tech or magic... then your story is crap - and I feel DA is moving closer and closer to that.  

[Ieldra]

@Ieldra:  Might I suggest that your problem is in thinking that the Golden City is an actual "place"?

It doesn't matter if it is, or not. It matters what it, and the attempt to get there, represents.
 
For me, the idea of stealing power from the gods is rather attractive. Humans should do it and gain autonomy from their gods (for this, it doesn't matter if they're real or not either). For the Chantry, it represents the sin of pride, an attempt to go beyond your station and take power that isn't meant for you.
 
Not that I'm denying the Seven were full of hubris, I just deny their goal alone qualifies them as that. As I see it, the Seven disqualified themselves by their means and motivations, not their goal as such, and I'd rather see a character who sees it in the same light.

As for the Golden City being a place, well, you can travel physically into the Fade, as opposed to with your mind, so the Fade is a place in some way. You probably agree with me that this takes away some of the thematic impact it might've had were it strictly a realm of ideas and dreams, but such is the lore and it has been so since DAO. I would be surprised if the Black City didn't turn out to be a place in the same way.

Edit:
I disagree with your statement about SF-tech and magic. There are fantasy stories with no magic and SF stories with no advanced technology, and they're not any better or worse for that, but if you remove those elements from a story that has them it will be a different story. Technology is a theme in ME and magic a theme in DA, it's not just there for coolness' sake.

[Medhia_Nox]

As for the Golden City being a place, well, you can travel physically into the Fade, as opposed to with your mind, so the Fade is a place in some way. You probably agree with me that this takes away some of the thematic impact it might've had were it strictly a realm of ideas and dreams, but such is the lore and it has been so since DAO. I would be surprised if the Black City didn't turn out to be a place in the same way.

 

Oh, you have no idea - biggest pet peeve with DA. 

 

But I'll leave it at that as to not derail this particular thread. 

[dragonflight288]

For me, it can be summed up by quoting the protagonists.

 

Shepard: Yeah, I was only mostly dead. Try finding that on a government form. 

 

Hero of Ferelden: Sten, tear his arms off. 

[Bfler]

Mass Effect but I prefer the setting of Dragon Age - The Mass Effect series was solid with the climax being disappointing. Still, the series was quite a journey.
Dragon Age: Origins was great! Unfortunately, DA 2 was mediocre and Inquisition was literal garbage.

This, if you switch DA 2 with Inquisition.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Dragon Age.

 

Don't get me wrong, Mass Effect is good and probably more iconic, and its characters are often great. ME3 also has really fun gameplay, in contrast to the boring ME1 and overly simplified ME2. 

 

But Dragon Age has overall better writing and continuity, a more interesting setting (as of DA:I), more replayability, and party-based gameplay that I prefer. On top of the myriad of little things I prefer like the lack of karma meter or the way it handles romance.

 

Mass Effect does have better DLC overall however.

[BansheeOwnage]

In a general sense, I prefer SF to fantasy, but I don't agree with the prevailing attitude of SF screenwriters of "anything goes regardless how nonsensical, if it's only cool or sexy". Exactly because it's closer to RL, the standards of the plausible should be stricter in SF than in fantasy. Good SF extends science and technology into the unknown but keeps the known intact wherever possible. Bad SF doesn't care. According to that standard, ME is really bad SF, and no, writer's ignorance is no excuse. You should know about stuff if it's a major aspect of your story. Also, from a worldbuilding perspective, Thedas is way better-crafted than the MEU.  

Well I definitely prefer hard or fairly hard scifi as well. That's part of the reason why ME1 is my favourite game of the ME trilogy. It got a lot less hard after that.

 

And for people who don't know, "hard" or "soft" scifi refers to how grounded in reality the work is, basically.

[BansheeOwnage]

What we have there is an established fact:  the attempt to enter the Golden City.  But what is not truly explained is what was encountered there, what they did exactly.  In essence we are the blind men trying to identify an elephant.  The information we have is simply incomplete.

 

That actually feeds into the matter of faith in DAI.  Do you believe the Chantry version?  Tevinter's?  Corypheus'?  Is it all BS?  All seem to be on some level "true" yet they all contradict each other too.  

 

Far more interesting than "the Reapers were the good guys all along"

Not saying this is what you think, but no one is ever going to convince me that they were anywhere near "the good guys"    Ugh.
 Anderson was right.

 

"We destroy them, or they destroy us."

It's as simple as that.

[Eckswhyzed]

I get not liking the open world design and the animations, and such. But what are these mysterious "aspects" that are being pandered to?

 

Any aspects that aren't in line with their own tastes, of course.

 

Using the word "pandering" in a serious manner is a red flag for me not to take your opinions seriously. It's just another way to slag off any feature you don't like. No one complains when their preferences are "pandered" to, it's always someone else's.

Modifié par Eckswhyzed, 22 mars 2016 - 10:50 .

[rapscallioness]

Using the word "pandering" in a serious manner is a red flag for me not to take your opinions seriously. It's just another way to slag off any feature you don't like. No one complains when their preferences are "pandered" to, it's always someone else's.

 

In this case, Alan was responding to a post that used the verbiage "pandering".

 

Other than that, I agree with your sentiments in general.

 

edit: ....or maybe you were speaking generally? If so, my apologies.

[rapscallioness]

I like them both. It was the ME series that really hooked me into BW games, but these days I'm more excited about DA4 than MEA. I think that's because I have at least a vague idea about what may be going on in DA4 and that's interesting to me.

 

ME3 and DAI were both nice and slick looking, and they were both OK games. They're decent games. I enjoy them...overall. However, for me, they were both the weakest installments in their respective series despite being "slick".

 

Lessee..something more specific...okay, I like the companions better in DAO and DA2 than the ME games. The DA companions just seem more complicated. They will challenge and turn on you. They surprise you. The ME squad never did anything that surprised me, except for that one time with Wrex on Virmire. Although, I love my ME squad, I just feel like the DA companions are more....interesting.

 

Not so much with the DAI companions. They're alright, but I don't really care about any of them.

 

I love the space faring sci-fi. I think the ME combat is better than DA in that the ME series seems to have improved over the 3 games. DA combat feels a bit more confused. It doesn't feel like DA combat is improving as much as its kind of flailing about in the water.

 

I think DA2 physical animations of both the AI/npc and the main characters were the most fluid and responsive of any of the ME or other DA games. ME characters have a certain stiffness to them that I don't care for.

 

Uh, DLC, the DLC is always good. I mean, mostly, My favs were Legacy for DA2; Leviathan and Citadel for ME..oh, LotSB was good. I also liked Descent, JoH and Trespasser for DA.

 

Eh, they're both about equal at this point. Those are a couple things I like and dislike about each franchise.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Any aspects that aren't in line with their own tastes, of course.

 

Using the word "pandering" in a serious manner is a red flag for me not to take your opinions seriously. It's just another way to slag off any feature you don't like. No one complains when their preferences are "pandered" to, it's always someone else's.

 

Agreed. When someone ''panders'' to the ''right'' people, it's usually known as ''knowing their audience'' instead and viewed as a positive, suddenly. It's just not a complaint I can take seriously.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

 the impact and consequences of power and the inevitable desire we humans have for at least some measure of it, 

Inevitable Desire? A rather strong word from whom  your bias shine

You are inappropriately extending your own vision of the matter to all humanity when it is clear that persons who don't care for power do exist.

[In Exile]

Not saying this is what you think, but no one is ever going to convince me that they were anywhere near "the good guys"    Ugh.
 Anderson was right.

 

"We destroy them, or they destroy us."

 

It's as simple as that.

 

They have industrialized death camps. I cannot fathom the thought process that starts with "our villains are basically worse than the Nazis" and ends up "... and so they were the good guys all along!"