Yeah, well... considering that his death is optional rather than permanent in any world state, his appearance in next installment is possible - especially that we don't really know what happens to ancient elves, and especially prominent high elves (like priests and so on) after physical death.
Plus, even in recent interview PW, when discussing optional death of Iron Bull, said that death of a character is not something that would prevent that character from ever appearing again, and mentions NPCs from Mass Effects that had still major roles and presence even though they could be killed in earlier games.
He also mentions how much it reduces their role, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.
I've read your comment. I think you misunderstand or I did a bad job explaining. There are two things we know as the "Fade". The first is what Solas knows as the Fade - this ephemeral and ever-changing feature of reality (?) that is fundamentally tied to spirits and magic, and was (seemingly) inseparable from reality before Solas separated it by raising the Veil.
The second is the place we call the Fade - the one were Corypheus went physically and we landed physically (twice, potentially!) in DAI (the second time, by way of an Eluvian, not the Anchor). The Fade was "not a place one went" (paraphrasing Solas). Yet it is very clear a place one goes now.
Yet it's Solas who exclaims in raw Fade under Adamant "I've never thought I'd find myself here physically!"
Plus, when you ask him about Arlathan he goes all wistful and mentions crystals twining between branches and palaces floating in the sky - as if he was in a place, and that place has a very specific look.
Also - the place and energy you mention... I simply don't separate those, nor I think they should be thought of as separate.
Leliana might not have been a playable character, but she helped form the Inquisition and can potentially be the next devine. That's pretty major.
Though, they just might not be in the forefront of the game
She also can't die, though. I mean, she "dies", but Bioware brings her back (then handwaves it in DA:I). I wouldn't expect that ever again. Even - absurdly - with the Architect, who actually has a reason to come back.
He also mentions how much it reduces their role, so I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Considering how much he went on how hard decision it was to make, up to a point that they've considered bending over backwards with claiming that Viddassala's team was an offshoot (only they didn't, because it cheapened the whole experience) only to avoid killing IB, or even mentions that perhaps if they knew all these years later that the story choices for IB would lead to his death perhaps they'd rewrite it... yeah, I'd say thy definitely have future plans for Bull.
And I wouldn't be at all surprised that they (currently, but that can change during development work) have plans for Abelas too, just from sheer amount of additional dialogue from Solas (when we have him in ToM and keep Abelas alive) and foreshadowing banter with Dorian.
Considering how much he went on how hard decision it was to make, up to a point that they've considered bending over backwards with claiming that Viddassala's team was an offshoot (only they didn't, because it cheapened the whole experience) only to avoid killing IB, or even mentions that perhaps if they knew all these years later that the story choices for IB would lead to his death perhaps they'd rewrite it... yeah, I'd say thy definitely have future plans for Bull.
And I wouldn't be at all surprised that they (currently, but that can change during development work) have plans for Abelas too, just from sheer amount of additional dialogue from Solas (when we have him in ToM and keep Abelas alive) and foreshadowing banter with Dorian.
I think you're fundamentally misreading what PW says. He's not saying, that they still have future plans for the IB. He's saying that they owned that choice and had the IB betray you despite how much it compromises their future plans. I'd say the take-away is the opposite: that the IB's role has suffered greatly in the future because of what they chose with Trespasser.
I very much doubt they have any plans for Abelas, because Abelas has no role or overlap with Solas. Their cross-over is non-existent. The only time Solas even speaks to Abelas is to tell him to turn that frown upside down. I'm sure Abelas would cameo, but we're talking random NPC cameo here.
Edit:
Here's the quote:
Okay, this one was tough. Because... The bad news on having a character die in the game, as a possibility means that you are inherently limiting how much they can ever appear in the future. You know. It's not a hard limition; we had Ash or Kaidan die in Mass Effect 1, and still have them as full squad mates in Mass Effect 3. So it's not like that's a hard line, but whatever you say 'hey this character can die if this happens in the game', it makes it a lot harder to bring them back in the future.
We do not know that Abelas died. We also know that it is very difficult for the Elvhen to die. That is a fact
No, the ancient elves get slaughtered in the droves during the fight in the Temple. Abelas refers to their numbers dwindling every time their awoken to defend the Temple. When Solas is talking about certain elves being hard to kill, he's clearly talking about the Evanuris.
I think you're fundamentally misreading what PW says. He's not saying, that they still have future plans for the IB. He's saying that they owned that choice and had the IB betray you despite how much it compromises their future plans. I'd say the take-away is the opposite: that the IB's role has suffered greatly in the future because of what they chose with Trespasser.
I very much doubt they have any plans for Abelas, because Abelas has no role or overlap with Solas. Their cross-over is non-existent. The only time Solas even speaks to Abelas is to tell him to turn that frown upside down. I'm sure Abelas would cameo, but we're talking random NPC cameo here.
Edit:
Here's the quote:
Okay, this one was tough. Because... The bad news on having a character die in the game, as a possibility means that you are inherently limiting how much they can ever appear in the future. You know. It's not a hard limition; we had Ash or Kaidan die in Mass Effect 1, and still have them as full squad mates in Mass Effect 3. So it's not like that's a hard line, but whatever you say 'hey this character can die if this happens in the game', it makes it a lot harder to bring them back in the future.
I am not misreading it. Just look at the quote and the part of it that you - incidentally - didn't emphasize. Then there's also the context of parts of interview I actually mentioned, namely how they've tried to write Trespasser first, apparently specifically to avoid Iron Bull's death.
Even the fact that PW mentions just how hard it is to bring character back twice speaks volumes of how relevant this death is for their future plans. He spends much less time in the interview on consequences or player reaction aspect of the choice, mostly mentioning that yeah - the choice is problematic from a perspective of bringing him back, but he likes that eventually it resulted in a choice "with teeth". It was a somewhat unforseen, but perfectly logical consequence, and not a specific aim of them writing the whole story and IB arc the way they did.
Anyway - I'm not saying that IB or Abelas will definitely appear and have a major role or something, what I'm saying is that their appearance isn't entirely off the table.
Just to add - yes, Abelas has an overlap with Solas; aside from being one of few remaining elves whom he seemed to have recruited if alive, he served Mythal, with whom Solas is tied with, whether it comes to shared history, past servitude or friendship. Plus, he's the only ancient elf (well, who doesn't hide his ancient elfiness...) we meet, and it could be even said that he owes a debt to Inquisitor (if he survives), so while he might not be deeply tied to Solas, he's certainly tied to Inquisitor. It'd be interesting to see what role Abelas could appear, if he ever did - he might be an adversary, but might as well be an ally.
I am not misreading it. Just look at the quote and the part of it that you - incidentally - didn't emphasize. Then there's also the context of parts of interview I actually mentioned, namely how they've tried to write Trespasser first, apparently specifically to avoid Iron Bull's death.
Even the fact that PW mentions just how hard it is to bring character back twice speaks volumes of how relevant this death is for their future plans. He spends much less time in the interview on consequences or player reaction aspect of the choice, mostly mentioning that yeah - the choice is problematic from a perspective of bringing him back, but he likes that eventually it resulted in a choice "with teeth". It was a somewhat unforseen, but perfectly logical consequence, and not a specific aim of them writing the whole story and IB arc the way they did.
Anyway - I'm not saying that IB or Abelas will definitely appear and have a major role or something, what I'm saying is that their appearance isn't entirely off the table.
Just to add - yes, Abelas has an overlap with Solas; aside from being one of few remaining elves whom he seemed to have recruited if alive, he served Mythal, with whom Solas is tied with, whether it comes to shared history, past servitude or friendship. Plus, he's the only ancient elf (well, who doesn't hide his ancient elfiness...) we meet, and it could be even said that he owes a debt to Inquisitor (if he survives), so while he might not be deeply tied to Solas, he's certainly tied to Inquisitor. It'd be interesting to see what role Abelas could appear, if he ever did - he might be an adversary, but might as well be an ally.
I deliberately highlighted the "it's not like that's a hard line" part. If I was going to be dishonest, I'd have cut the middle with an ellipsis. I don't appreciate the implication of selective quoting. The other parts of the quote aren't relevant - they're talking about how avoiding the death would be a cop-out. I think you're fundamentally misreading the quote. I'm not saying the IB won't be back - again, see what they say about Ashley/Kaiden - but you didn't' say that the IB's death doesn't rule him out from appearing. You specifically said they had future plans, and that's just not what PW says in his interview.
He's not talking about the IB - he's talking about character deaths and the relationship between those and future plans. And you didn't say "their appearance isn't entirely off the table". What you said was: "I'd say thy definitely have future plans for Bull". That's very different.
As to Abelas, there's no interaction with Solas. The overlap, such as we see it, is entirely speculative. I'm not sure where you're getting the fact that he was recruited by Solas - certainly nothing suggests it in their scene at the Well of Mythal. I'd also say that "Not Murdered by the Inquisitor™" isn't much of a tie.
Again, I'm not saying Abelas can't come back, and I actually do like the character. I just think there's a huge stretch between "cool NPC who should cameo" and "Bioware has plans" for this NPC. Bioware "has plans" for Morrigan, or Solas. This is the level of NPC we should reserve this type of language for, not basically a random, if interesting, character.
Yet it's Solas who exclaims in raw Fade under Adamant "I've never thought I'd find myself here physically!"
Plus, when you ask him about Arlathan he goes all wistful and mentions crystals twining between branches and palaces floating in the sky - as if he was in a place, and that place has a very specific look.
Also - the place and energy you mention... I simply don't separate those, nor I think they should be thought of as separate.
I'm going to address this with pictures. Look, this is what the pale shadow of an elf sees in Trespasser versus a human:
Now watch the Fade:
Now see how In Hushed Whispers looks (ignore the Champions of the Just stuff, couldn't find a better picture):
And now watch the showdown with Corypheus:
And now finally the Library:
It's all the same. The palaces are floating in the sky. The "crystals" we also see - the pale reflection of them on the leaves, as a pale shadow of the elves that were. The "Fade" - the place - isn't different from not just the Crossroads, but what the "real" world looks like as the Fade "leaks" into it. Note the far right of the Library scene - note the green-ish tinge of the sky.
While Bioware may recycle their background resources (e.g. statutes), the fact that the area is floating is a deliberate choice. The "Fade" we go to, and that Solas visits, is not the Fade that Solas knows.
It's all the same. The palaces are floating in the sky. The "crystals" we also see - the pale reflection of them on the leaves, as a pale shadow of the elves that were. The "Fade" - the place - isn't different from not just the Crossroads, but what the "real" world looks like as the Fade "leaks" into it. Note the far right of the Library scene - note the green-ish tinge of the sky.
While Bioware may recycle their background resources (e.g. statutes), the fact that the area is floating is a deliberate choice. The "Fade" we go to, and that Solas visits, is not the Fade that Solas knows.
What "crystals"? That's a stretch if I've ever seen one - those were not crystals but reddish leaves (btw. red and purple-ish leaves also exist IRL). There are no crystals there, and Solas most likely refers to big structures that twined between branches of giant trees - giant trees that we see featured in Temple Of Mythal and in Frostback Basin. You don't see those in the Fade anywhere.
Palaces floating in the sky also don't indicate a place, merely magic involved - we can see floating structures in concept arts in Minrathous and floating structures during Cory fight.
What "crystals"? That's a stretch if I've ever seen one - those were not crystals but reddish leaves (btw. red and purple-ish leaves also exist IRL). There are no crystals there, and Solas most likely refers to big structures that twined between branches of giant trees - giant trees that we see featured in Temple Of Mythal and in Frostback Basin. You don't see those in the Fade anywhere.
Palaces floating in the sky also don't indicate a place, merely magic involved - we can see floating structures in concept arts in Minrathous and floating structures during Cory fight.
I didn't say they were crystals. I said they were pale shadows of what Solas references as crystals. Of course red leaves exist IRL. But these are obviously special leaves - only elves can even see them. As for stretching - using structures that literally cannot be crystals to mean crystals is just as much - if not more - of a stretch.
As to the visual portrayal of all these surreal elements - I can't possibly say more than I have, and if you're entirely unwilling to see the parallels, then there isn't any hope to have a discussion. We've very clearly set out our separate positions, and you've dug in your heels on this one.
And the funny thing is, I don't actually think there's any connection between Arlathan and what we know as the Fade. But the evidence that the "Fade" that we know today is not the "Fade" in its natural state is overwhelming, as is the evidence that the physical Fade is just another elven transdimensional location.
This is a crystal, for reference:
Spoiler
And this is the definition of crystal:
a piece of a homogeneous solid substance having a natural geometrically regular form with symmetrically arranged plane faces.
I deliberately highlighted the "it's not like that's a hard line" part. If I was going to be dishonest, I'd have cut the middle with an ellipsis. I don't appreciate the implication of selective quoting. The other parts of the quote aren't relevant - they're talking about how avoiding the death would be a cop-out. I think you're fundamentally misreading the quote. I'm not saying the IB won't be back - again, see what they say about Ashley/Kaiden - but you didn't' say that the IB's death doesn't rule him out from appearing. You specifically said they had future plans, and that's just not what PW says in his interview.
He's not talking about the IB - he's talking about character deaths and the relationship between those and future plans. And you didn't say "their appearance isn't entirely off the table". What you said was: "I'd say thy definitely have future plans for Bull". That's very different.
Yet you did quite selectively, because the quite you've given simply doesn't paint a full picture. And yes, those parts are relevant.
And no, I am not the one doing the misreading. You know perfectly well, even from some other threads, that the "cop-out" referred to them possibly copping out if it turned out that Viddassala's was an offshoot. The fact remains that PW specifically mentioned that they've toyed with Viddassala's team being a rogue faction in order to avoid Iron Bull's death.
If that doesn't suggest that they don't have some plans for IB, I'm not sure what else - and I say they have plans, because they might as well drop it in the first draft. Plans =/= something concrete that will definitely materialize in the game. They've had plans to release Exalted March DLC for DA2 after all, didn't they?
As to Abelas, there's no interaction with Solas.
Er... you actually sure you remember it right? Because there are actually THREE direct interactions between Abelas and Solas near the Well Of Sorrows.
First Solas says "there are other places friend, other duties. Your people yet linger" - Abelas asks if those are elvhen such as Solas, and Solas confirms. Second one, Solas repeats that yes, there is a place for him. Third one, Solas uses elvhen to say something to Abelas, to which Abelas smiles lightly before he departs and Solas says the team that he tells Abelas that 'he hopes he'll find a new name'.
Hard to deny that those tidbits are actually somewhat suggestive. Whether it goes anywhere in the future though is anyone's guess.
Yet you did quite selectively, because the quite you've given simply doesn't paint a full picture. And yes, those parts are relevant.
And no, I am not the one doing the misreading. You know perfectly well, even from some other threads, that the "cop-out" referred to them possibly copping out if it turned out that Viddassala's was an offshoot. The fact remains that PW specifically mentioned that they've toyed with Viddassala's team being a rogue faction in order to avoid Iron Bull's death.
If that doesn't suggest that they don't have some plans for IB, I'm not sure what else - and I say they have plans, because they might as well drop it in the first draft. Plans =/= something concrete that will definitely materialize in the game. They've had plans to release Exalted March DLC for DA2 after all, didn't they?
It's not relevant. I'm well-aware the "cop-out" refers to the role of the Qunari. That's my point. The discussion has nothing to do with the role of the IB in future plots. It has to do with: (i) the difficulty in choosing to allow a character to be killed, because of the degree it limits their role in future plots; and (ii) the rationale behind making it so that the Qunari are acting in their official capacity.
PW doesn't say that the IB has a role in future plots. He talks about the greater difficulty in bringing a character back if we kill them. He references a series that Bioware freely admits they made up as they went along. And yet somehow, from this, we are supposed to take-away that Bioware has future plans for the IB (in their current storyboard). That's nonsense. There's no support for this beyond wishful thinking.
The interview is clearly about their usual hedging their bets - killing characters off limits what they can do in the future when writing plots or calling characters back, so they're hesitant to do it. Note that PW does tip his hand about a future plot - the war with the Qunari.
Er... you actually sure you remember it right? Because there are actually THREE direct interactions between Abelas and Solas near the Well Of Sorrows.
First Solas says "there are other places friend, other duties. Your people yet linger" - Abelas asks if those are elvhen such as Solas, and Solas confirms. Second one, Solas repeats that yes, there is a place for him. Third one, Solas uses elvhen to say something to Abelas, to which Abelas smiles lightly before he departs and Solas says the team that he tells Abelas that 'he hopes he'll find a new name'.
Hard to deny that those tidbits are actually somewhat suggestive. Whether it goes anywhere in the future though is anyone's guess.
We're counting it differently - this is just miscommunication on our part. When I say "interactions", I don't mean exchanges. I am thinking of separate scenes where Solas and Abelas talk. The reason I mentioned "two" is that we have two separate scenes with Abelas: the first is when we meet him (where Solas basically says that he can't speak to him just because of shared heritage) and the second is at the Well of Mythal proper. I think the dialogue is very suggestive - I just don't think it's supposed to foreshadow a future role for Abelas. It's supposed to foreshadow the Solas plot. Remember, Abelas denies the Inquisitor is an "elvhen", but admits that Solas is one. This hints at what he truly is before the reveal. The last time foreshadows his aims as well - remember, "Abelas" means "sorrow".
I didn't say they were crystals. I said they were pale shadows of what Solas references as crystals. Of course red leaves exist IRL. But these are obviously special leaves - only elves can even see them. As for stretching - using structures that literally cannot be crystals to mean crystals is just as much - if not more - of a stretch.
.... Is the sky special or crystalline as well? Because elves can see different sky in Trespasser Crossroads as well, not to mention far more colors (... and how is it that others can see floating structures, but not crystals?).
In fact, it makes sense that elves see leaves and vivid colors, purely from symbolic perspective - their aesthetics and lore is strongly tried with nature; trees in particular. It's established in story that being in Crossroads has a rejuvenating effect both on elves and Crossroads themselves, so the fact that elves still see life (in form of living trees), even though other's don't, makes sense both from meta standpoint, as well as one in-game (Fade is in many ways about symbols). Trees with leaves (life) and trees without leaves (death, stagnation) have pretty much always had strong symbolic significance. White Tree Of Gondor, anyone?
It's simply entirely unnecessary to try and position that those leaves are crystals or "pale reflections of crystals" - not to mention that the leaves on those trees look nothing like crystals or pale shadows or anything, nor they "twine between the branches" - nor we have any depictions or examples of trees with crystalline structures growing from them.
All the trees that seem important (ToM tree, JoH tree) appear entirely natural; what makes them distinct is their sheer size.
Spoiler
Solas' mural establishing a connection between Well of Sorrows (...and Titans?) and a tree growing at the very heart of Temple Of Mythal.
With trees this big, and with game establishing that they carry some yet untold significance AND that elves built entire cities and temples around such trees, it's not hard to see what Solas had in mind, when he asked us that instead of aravels and wooden ramps, we should imagine pre-Veil palaces floating in the clouds and some sort of crystals (perhaps working as street lights, or perhaps just being there because hey - magic! Personally I don't think there was anything special in them, other than it may have been a distinct aesthetic quirk of Arlathan, hence it was one of the first things that came to Solas's mind when he was wistfully reminiscing about it) twining between those enormous branches, rather than just having magickal leaves that are pale shadows of crystals that only elves can see
Also - what do you mean when you say "using structures that literally cannot be crystals is just as much of a stretch"?
... Where did I ever said anything about interpreting different structures as crystals? I never claimed we actually saw anything like crystals - it's you who claim we did and posit that those are leaves on Trespasser Crossroads trees.
The floating structures I mentioned referred to floating rocks and pieces of Vir Dirthara floating about which themselves referred to palaces in clouds, not crystals.
As to the visual portrayal of all these surreal elements - I can't possibly say more than I have, and if you're entirely unwilling to see the parallels, then there isn't any hope to have a discussion. We've very clearly set out our separate positions, and you've dug in your heels on this one.
.... I dug heels here? I'm not the one who proposes the idea that trees have pale shadows of crystals for leaves, only to make it seem as if matches Solas' description. I don't accept it simply because it's forced.
And the funny thing is, I don't actually think there's any connection between Arlathan and what we know as the Fade. But the evidence that the "Fade" that we know today is not the "Fade" in its natural state is overwhelming, as is the evidence that the physical Fade is just another elven transdimensional location.
Well then what we're arguing about? My point of contention isn't that Fade is a place - because it is, a place or a dimension as well as specific energy (magic, stuff dreaming is made off) that went through a series of changes after the Veil was crated, only that Arlathan apparently represents whole of Fade, instead of being a specific place that existed at specific time - more thank likely one that was one of the many marvels that absolutely relied on presence of the Fade, but one that in of itself was a thing separate from it as a concept and a place, and had its place mostly in Thedas, unlike Crossroads or Vir Dirthara.
And no, I also don't think it's "just" a giant pocket dimension that went into disrepair after Solas destroyed Elvenhan. Fade (place and energy) and Earth appear to be two halves of a primordial whole that have a very convoluted relationship with one another that we're yet to figure out.
...In fact, I'd say that if we're going to call something giant pocket dimensions, I'd go an entirely different direction and say that Earth/Thedas is more of a contender here.
As to Abelas, there's no interaction with Solas. The overlap, such as we see it, is entirely speculative. I'm not sure where you're getting the fact that he was recruited by Solas - certainly nothing suggests it in their scene at the Well of Mythal. I'd also say that "Not Murdered by the Inquisitor™" isn't much of a tie.
To be fair, the list of people Not Murdered by the Inquisitor is not a long one.
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