284 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

I'd prefer it if the devs gave their undivided attention to stuff like the addition of new animations, more dialogue options, improved gameplay mechanics, AI, and HAIR.

[Mistic]

As fun as it would be to play as an alien character, it's better to have a set human protagonist with a somewhat defined backstory than a nearly blank slate like DA:I's Inquisitor. The Inquisitor was by far, the least interesting of Bioware's recent protagonists. Needing to account for large variances in background just resulted in a rather bland protagonist whose differences from one background to the next were primarily cosmetic. 

 

I don't think that's an issue of having different races or not. Thanks to the origins, the Warden in DA:O wasn't a blankslate, while any character presented in the same way as the Inquisitor in DA:I would have been blander, human or not.

 

And Shepard wasn't really more developed than the Inquisitor, to be honest.

 

Changing topics, I don't understand why some people believe that cutting off race options will mean better options in other areas. So far, we've got only one example of that experiment being made (from DA:O to DA2, then from DA2 to DA:I) to compare, and the end result of the game without races was... Well, we know how it was. There are more variables than just race selection to judge how well other areas will improve.

[Killroy]

While increasing player choices and roleplaying opportunities. I guess different players value different things though.

That's not a guarantee. In fact, it's not likely. DAI shows that. What is guaranteed is that adding race selection takes resources from other things.

Blue and orange morality is another tvtropes thing. It means that the morality in question is so foreign to the human experience that it doesn't fit in any traditional human concept of right and wrong.

But that goes back to my point: if a human thought of it then it isn't alien, it's just a human pretending to be alien. If all it comes down to is your imagination then why not simply imagine your character is an alien?
 

Geth (non heretical version) are an example of blue and orange morality, because their consensus type of "society" means that they deal with concepts like free will from a radically different perspective.

That's not particularly alien. It's like a perfected communism. The society is equal in all things and decisions are made as a united society because the greater good is more important than individuals.

[Killroy]

I don't think that's an issue of having different races or not. Thanks to the origins, the Warden in DA:O wasn't a blankslate, while any character presented in the same way as the Inquisitor in DA:I would have been blander, human or not.
 
And Shepard wasn't really more developed than the Inquisitor, to be honest.
 
Changing topics, I don't understand why some people believe that cutting off race options will mean better options in other areas. So far, we've got only one example of that experiment being made (from DA:O to DA2, then from DA2 to DA:I) to compare, and the end result of the game without races was... Well, we know how it was. There are more variables than just race selection to judge how well other areas will improve.

DA2 was made in less than a year. DAI had 4 times as much time and it sucks harder than DA2 IMO. DA2 tried to do some interesting things, whereas DAI just tried to ape every other RPG and failed.

[Lady Artifice]

But that goes back to my point: if a human thought of it then it isn't alien, it's just a human pretending to be alien. If all it comes down to is your imagination then why not simply imagine your character is an alien?

 

 

Hey, I'm all for sticking to human protagonists in ME. Having to code that many different animations sounds like a logistical nightmare for the developers, and completely impractical from both a story telling and game design perspective. Besides, I prefer playing humans anyway. 

 

That said, I think you're over harsh when it comes to what that meant for DAI. Overall, the DA species are way less varied than the ME ones--so there's fewer hurdles to code different body animations, and I did feel like my elf play through was a very different experience from my human one. People recognized it in dialogue pretty often, and it effected certain bonuses and perks throughout the game. That counts for something.

 

 

That's not particularly alien. It's like a perfected communism. The society is equal in all things and decisions are made as a united society because the greater good is more important than individuals.

 

 

I think you're splitting hairs. There are certain concepts that simply don't apply to humans but that we can still imagine readily enough, like immortality or telepathy. We use fantastical concepts to apply to fictional aliens because it's one of the most effective ways to make them distinct from us. We could theoretically RP as a fictional alien, just like I RPed as a fictional Elf in DAI. "Roleplaying" isn't such a rigid term that it only applies to plausible scenarios. 

[Mistic]

I think you're splitting hairs. There are certain concepts that simply don't apply to humans but that we can still imagine readily enough, like immortality or telepathy. We use fantastical concepts to apply to fictional aliens because it's one of the most effective ways to make them distinct from us. We could theoretically RP as a fictional alien, just like I RPed as a fictional Elf in DAI. "Roleplaying" isn't such a rigid term that it only applies to plausible scenarios. 

 

You are right. Also, even if it were impossible to put ourselves in a real alien's position, in the end it wouldn't matter to the matter at hand. Krogans or turians aren't real aliens, but narrative constructs. If some humans created them, other humans should be able to roleplay them (unless we suddenly discover that Bioware writers are actually an extra-terrestrial hive mind or something, in which case I'll shut up).

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

As fun as it would be to play as an alien character, it's better to have a set human protagonist with a somewhat defined backstory than a nearly blank slate like DA:I's Inquisitor. The Inquisitor was by far, the least interesting of Bioware's recent protagonists. Needing to account for large variances in background just resulted in a rather bland protagonist whose differences from one background to the next were primarily cosmetic.

Multiple playable species also isn't worth reduced cinematic dialogue.

That said, the Bioware devs really need to stop with the Humans Are Special trope. You can have a human protagonist without the story being a circle jerk for narcissists.

I hope they don't repeat that same mistake with the trilogy too. But I think they will since they're flipping us the bird and do whatever they want and that's a goddamn shame that they do.

[MichaelN7]

As someone who prefers playing as a human when other options are present, I note my bias.

 

Prior to the discovery of humanity, the Council races as they were had been doing things more-or-less the same way for hundreds (if not thousands) of years.

Then suddenly their premier military forces (Turians) come across these strange "simian-like" creatures who are (from their perspective) running around willy-nilly pressing all the big red buttons on what are clearly *not* something to be messed around with.  (Remember, that's from the Council's perspective; here are theses pests that if left unchecked will destroy us all.)

 

So, in a perfectly reasonable reaction along the lines of pest control, the Turians invade Shanxi.

Now remember, these are the Turians, a species that is so militaristic that the concept of "civilian" and "soldier" are one and the same, and they are invading a planet populated by a species that has less than 5% of the civilian population in active military service.

 

From any point of view, it should be a curb-stomp.  But not only do the human soldiers manage to defeat the Turian invasion force, they actually make the Turians consider bringing the brunt of their military to stop the humans.

 

Put that in perspective; you don't commit the bulk of your forces into an aggressive tactic unless you NEED to, since just getting something that like that "up in the air" is very expensive and logistically taxing.

 

Being the military geniuses that they are, they felt that a force that massive was necessary to stop humanity.

In their defense, they DID think that the token forces stationed there was the entirety of the human fleet.

A krogan saying: "The biggest insult to give to your enemy is to tell them they're not worth fighting."

 

Obviously, the Turians felt humanity was worth fighting.

 

-------------

 

Not only that, but the humans ferocious response caught the attention of the Council as a whole.

Turians = military masters; who had actually been fought off.

Salarians = information/spies who try to win before it begins; are virtually clueless.

Asari = (meta-knowledge: they've had Prothean tech for centuries) "ageless" and wise; told the Turians to stand down.

 

So here's a bunch of hairless monkeys armed with the equivalent of pointy sticks going up against one of the greatest militaries in the galaxy and GIVING THEM PAUSE.

The Salarians are no help, because humans are unpredictable enough that any information gathered is quickly made irrelevant, and the Asari recognize that fighting these creatures will NOT be in everyone's best interest.

 

Now lets jump ahead a few years, the Human Ambassador is Anita Goyle, and there's been a discovery of a human black-research facility (studying A.I., which is illegal).

The newly-formed Systems Alliance is threatened with sanction so massive, that it would basically render humanity into the Stone Age on a permanent basis.

 

Ms. Goyle counters with a threat to declare war on the Council as a whole, knowing that humanity would eventually lose such a war.

But the Council recognizes that even though a war like that could be won, it would leave the galaxy in ruins.

So basically, the Systems Alliance told the Council to "BITE ME" and GOT AWAY WITH IT, to a degree.

 

-------------

 

To summarize, the Council species had been doing things the same ways for a LONG time, but Humanity comes along and questions all of it, sometimes belligerently.

The Reapers up and conquered the Protheans relatively easily because of such homogenization.

When the Reapers show up again, it's a lot harder for them because there are a whole bunch of new variables in play now, and all of them human in origin.

 

What makes humanity special is that we won't accept the status quo "just because", and if something's wrong, we WILL NOT STOP until it's either fixed or dead.

We don't take crap from those who say we can't, and instead we either do it anyway or find out who won't let us then kick them into next week.

 

And that terrifies our peers, that we will not acquiesce, we will not falter, and we will not stop until we've made things right again.

 

There's power in having heart, and no species has more heart than humanity.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I'm curious why they think the protagonist needs to be relatable, as Aaron Flynn put it.

[wright1978]

What they've done is make the sane and pragmatic decision imo. They can create personal ties in the story easier based on backgrounds if they've at least got the anchor of a fixed species.

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Humans in science fiction are usually:

 

(1) Better than anyone else at everything.

 

(2) Worse than anyone else at everything.

 

I'm fine with playing a human, but I'd like the alien squadmates to play a little differently and have different strengths and weaknesses.

[Killroy]

Hey, I'm all for sticking to human protagonists in ME. Having to code that many different animations sounds like a logistical nightmare for the developers, and completely impractical from both a story telling and game design perspective. Besides, I prefer playing humans anyway.

In fantasy RPGs, when given the choice I always pick an elf. Why? Why not. But I know that is never really amounts to anything.
 

That said, I think you're over harsh when it comes to what that meant for DAI. Overall, the DA species are way less varied than the ME ones--so there's fewer hurdles to code different body animations, and I did feel like my elf play through was a very different experience from my human one. People recognized it in dialogue pretty often, and it effected certain bonuses and perks throughout the game. That counts for something.

 
I've only finished DAI with an elf(couldn't bring myself to get more than halfway through subsequent playthroughs) but as an elf I didn't notice much at all in the way of unique dialogue and nothing of any significance in way of stat bonuses or perks. A few people here and there prefaces the things they were always going to say with "Hey, you're an elf" and I got an extremely minor penalty to my Court approval bar at the beginning of the Orlesian ball, but that's all being an elf equated to. I played a Dalish elf but I seemed to know less about Dalish culture than every shem around me. Every time one of those Elf-specific dialogue options popped up, instead of my character explaining something elfy to my crew it was me asking my non-Dalish, non-elf crew to explain Dalish culture to me. In the half-playthrough I did as a Tal-Vashoth I didn't even have those moments. And I had no unique armor/clothing to wear.
And adding races to MEA would require WAY more work. It's not worth it, as evidenced by DAI's thoroughly lacking narrative and gameworld.
 

I think you're splitting hairs. There are certain concepts that simply don't apply to humans but that we can still imagine readily enough, like immortality or telepathy. We use fantastical concepts to apply to fictional aliens because it's one of the most effective ways to make them distinct from us. We could theoretically RP as a fictional alien, just like I RPed as a fictional Elf in DAI. "Roleplaying" isn't such a rigid term that it only applies to plausible scenarios.

Those are concepts that are almost universal to humans. When I was a kid, before I read X-Men or anything like that I would pretend to be able to move stuff with my mind. Same goes for being immortal. Who wouldn't want superpowers/to be immortal? And again, anything we can come up with won't be particularly alien so what's the point of throwing good resources at it? Even Hanako is going to buy the game, despite constant protest over this, so what's the benefit?

[Mdizzletr0n]

The "humans are special snowflakes" stories are already too cliche within the sci-fi genre. BW could've stood out by doing something differently. I think they're playing it safe. Maybe TOO safe. Especially after ME3.

[Killroy]

The "humans are special snowflakes" stories are already too cliche within the sci-fi genre. BW could've stood out by doing something differently. I think they're playing it safe. Maybe TOO safe. Especially after ME3.

 

Oh wow, you've already played the game? Tell us all about it.

[Mdizzletr0n]

Oh wow, you've already played the game? Tell us all about it.

"Looking for a new home for humanity." = Humans are special and no one else needs to find a new home because they're not special.

7.1/10 Too much human

[Mistic]

What makes humanity special is that we won't accept the status quo "just because", and if something's wrong, we WILL NOT STOP until it's either fixed or dead.

We don't take crap from those who say we can't, and instead we either do it anyway or find out who won't let us then kick them into next week.

 

And that terrifies our peers, that we will not acquiesce, we will not falter, and we will not stop until we've made things right again.

 

There's power in having heart, and no species has more heart than humanity.

 

I think the main problem is not the humans' attitude. After all, we have a history full of haughty self-centered bullies. The main problem, from a writing perspective, is that the humans get away with it every single time because Bioware says so. We have to take the writers' word for it and we have to believe the reasons they give make sense. Once or twice can be, but it all becomes too much. The best equivalent would be CKII's Sunset Invasion happening in real life. Unbelievable, isn't it?

 

And not only that, it's also sold as a positive value. When a human complains about the limits imposed to them, we are always given the option to sympathize. When it's aliens complaining, they are either weak, bitter, obstructive, out-dated or outright terrorists. Ok, ME1 tended to be more nuanced in that regard, with more options for Shepard to express their views regarding the issue. After all, however, the story gets more and more human-centric.

 

I realized the extent of it when I played Thane's loyality mission for the first time. When you think that a corrupt crook like Joram Talid has a point (trope!), it means that the writing team may not be sending such a convincing message as they think.

[Silvos]

"Looking for a new home for humanity." = Humans are special and no one else needs to find a new home because they're not special.

7.1/10 Too much human

 

The leak that quote comes from also refers to Krogan colonies, so if you believe the one part of the leak you have to believe the other.

[Mdizzletr0n]

Could've sworn that I made a comment on that. Seems to be missing.

My reply was "I wonder who decides the locale of those colonies? Or will they choose on their own volition?"

[Mdizzletr0n]

I think the main problem is not the humans' attitude. After all, we have a history full of haughty self-centered bullies. The main problem, from a writing perspective, is that the humans get away with it every single time because Bioware says so. We have to take the writers' word for it and we have to believe the reasons they give make sense. Once or twice can be, but it all becomes too much. The best equivalent would be CKII's Sunset Invasion happening in real life. Unbelievable, isn't it?

And not only that, it's also sold as a positive value. When a human complains about the limits imposed to them, we are always given the option to sympathize. When it's aliens complaining, they are either weak, bitter, obstructive, out-dated or outright terrorists. Ok, ME1 tended to be more nuanced in that regard, with more options for Shepard to express their views regarding the issue. After all, however, the story gets more and more human-centric.

I realized the extent of it when I played Thane's loyality mission for the first time. When you think that a corrupt crook like Joram Talid has a point (trope!), it means that the writing team may not be sending such a convincing message as they think.

Also, humans have a history of violence and war. That's reason enough to worry.

You'd think if anything we'd relate to the Krogan. Lol

[Silvos]

Could've sworn that I made a comment on that. Seems to be missing.

My reply was "I wonder who decides the locale of those colonies? Or will they choose on their own volition?"

 

I can't imagine there are options for where specific species will make their colonies. That's too many variables and too much development for things that only have, at best, a 50/50 chance of being experienced by players. And it doesn't even make sense from a lore or storytelling perspective. If the races are segregated or largely segregated why would a human soldier decide where they'll make their homes? And why would a human soldier be making such decisions for anyone? That's the work of scientists, not pewpew experts.

[Shechinah]

Could've sworn that I made a comment on that. Seems to be missing.

My reply was "I wonder who decides the locale of those colonies? Or will they choose on their own volition?"

 

I'd see it as potentially happening this way; data is gathered, studied and discussed by different Groups composed of different races since I imaging the teams might be multiracial before being discussed by a multiracial coalition of some sort that might settle on a decision since it would mean funding resources and manpower that is used by the Ark.

 

Some colonies might be joint, some might not be and their purpose might be different since you'd have a mining colony, an agriculture colony and so forth in places where one race might fare better than another might.
 

[Mistic]

Could've sworn that I made a comment on that. Seems to be missing.

My reply was "I wonder who decides the locale of those colonies? Or will they choose on their own volition?"

 

Good question. In the Milky Way, it was the Council who decided who was granted colonization rights. Who will decide this in ME:A is something the game will have to answer somehow.

 

You'd think if anything we'd relate to the Krogan. Lol

 

Indeed, for all the reasons humans are said to be special, didn't the krogans did all of that in the past? Impressing the Council with their military ability, saving them from a Reaper-controled enemy, being granted colonies after colonies, but that was never enough, they always wanted more. Heck, even Harbinger said they had potential, although in their case it was wasted because of their sterilisation.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Good question. In the Milky Way, it was the Council who decided who was granted colonization rights. Who will decide this in ME:A is something the game will have to answer somehow.

I'm certain we'll have some sort of governing body on that main ship. They will probably be who the Pathfinders report to. 

[Sartoz]

I hope they don't repeat that same mistake with the trilogy too. But I think they will since they're flipping us the bird and do whatever they want and that's a goddamn shame that they do.

                                                                                      <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>

 

Giving us the Bird?

Look, the Bio studio's main responsibility, as a game developer, is to be a successful one. EA, as a publisher, is to to sell the game and make money. If these two goals are opposite of your "wants", then that too bad because their goals take priority.

[Hazegurl]

I wouldn't mind it if we got rid of the human snowflake trope but I wouldn't want it to be exchanged with the "humans suck and all non humans are better for ...reasons." trope either.  Fact remains is that humans aren't gonna take being held down lightly and we'll most likely fight any alien species who tries to do so.  This idea that humans should be subservient to "insert alien race you want to role play as" is just as ridiculous as the human snowflake trope.  If they can provide a good balance I'm all for it.