284 réponses à ce sujet

[10K]

I am not saying that the Illusive Man was a bit excessive in the way he conducted the operations. I am saying that the Illusive Man and his organization of Cerberus commited crimes against humanity. To name a few that they commited majorly against the civilian populace of humanity;
 
- Murder
- Imprisonment
- Torture
- enforced disappearance of persons
- other inhumane acts of similar character unintentionally causing great suffering or serious bodily or mental injury.
 
Regardless of whether the results came to be useful in some capacity, it still stands that Cerberus is guilty of crimes against humanity.

And you act as if the alliance has done nothing awful against humanity as well. BAaT, and intentional Eezo exposures to create biotics which leads to millions with cancer and other diseases. The alliance are not innocent in all of this, they are a military organization you act as if they don't have demons of their own. But war crimes aside, Cerberus has still done more to combat the greatest threat of the Galaxy than the alliance will ever hope to. If a few thousand over here must die to save a million over there, so be it.

[Shechinah]

And you act like as if the alliance has done nothing awful against humanity as well. BAaT, and intentional Eezo exposures to create biotics which leads to millions with cancer and other diseases. The alliance are not innocent in all of this, they are a military organization you act as if they don't have demons of their own.

 

When did I do that?
 

[10K]

When did I do that?

Link for BAat: http://masseffect.wi...erance_Training which the allience supported

Links for exposure: http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Biotics under human biotics. though it is said it is rumor, i still believe it as fact. Also in the timeline it is also stated that a series of starship drive failures are Orchestrated over populated colony areas around 2163 CE link http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline note this is after BAat and after humans learn the significance of biotics and during shanxi. coincidence? I think not.

[BioFan (Official)]

I'm sure fans aren't going to want to hear this, but Mass Effect was always a niche game, and it's even more so since ME3 when they alienated most of what little audience they had. Andromeda has to draw in new fans, and a lot of them, or it will flop. To draw in new fans it has to be accessible. This audience is not going to be interested in playing as some weird space monster, and they only think of "milky way" as a candy bar.

 

It's an unfortunate truth, but yes, the majority of players given the option still just play as human. 

[Shechinah]

...

 

That's sources, yes, but not to what I asked.
 

[Jaison1986]

It's an unfortunate truth, but yes, the majority of players given the option still just play as human. 

 

Isn't it obvious though? I mean, players want to play things that they identify with. That's the reason we can choose the protagonist race, sexuality, religion, etc. But what would we identify with an alien? Not to mention it would be hard to roleplay an alien protagonist, since we know little about their culture and customs. It would just end up an human/alien protagonist due to our RL views.

[BioFan (Official)]

I'd prefer it if the devs gave their undivided attention to stuff like the addition of new animations, more dialogue options, improved gameplay mechanics, AI, and HAIR.

 

 

I second the hair thing lol. That was a big critique from both the main trilogy, and especially Inquisition. I'd like to see more options, and less nearly bald/buzzcut. Adding braids could put in the appearance of length, sense longer hairs are harder to construct. 

[10K]

That's sources, yes, but not to what I asked.

Really does it matter, I know you didn't say alliance hasn't done anything to humanity? I was showing you they are just as bad as Cerberus. You list every act that Cerberus has done, but what does it matter? We know Cerberus has done awful things, all three games have showed examples of their war crimes. But the fact that they have done more to help combat the greatest threat ever to the galaxy, and help to try and save human colonies in ME2, is just prof of their goal to help humanity no matter what they have done. The alliance and council have done things to humanity as well, but when the reapers were taking human colonies and Shepard was screaming the reapers were coming for three games it seemed only Cerberus was listening and came to the aide of humanity.

The only reason Cerberus failed was because of aliens. If Illusive man would have never implanted himself with alien tech, he would have been the man he once was in ME: Evolution.

[Fuenf789]

I was gonna oppose but I would NEVERRR dare oppose you Fuen, I don't wanna live in a small world, so okay I agree as well

You have my vote!

You are just having fun- I guess, like me -> I think some  lot here are just forgetting the technicalities - ie explosion of story script options such different race/species might introduce, anyway.
i.e. say for example that your story line have 10000 steps and each step might have 3 different outcomes. To compact the storyline variations a bit we funnel them at dramatic points/ combination points to 2500 critical path decisions. That still leaves 15606255000 outcome nodes I have to anticipate/develop in the MEA storyline (voice-over/interaction/new alternatives/loopback).
Following that  -of course -somebody getting some special alien wouldn't accept responses/actions/options 100% similiar/symmetric to human options. I need not explain further... Some threads here should get listed in a turkey of the year award.

[Shechinah]

Really does it matter? I know you didn't say alliance hasn't done anything to humanity?

 
Evidentally it did since you found it necessary make the claim in the first place and now I admit I am curious as to where I supposedly acted like you said. If you knew I hadn't said anything like that then why did you claim I had?

"And you act like as if the alliance has done nothing awful against humanity as well. BAaT, and intentional Eezo exposures to create biotics which leads to millions with cancer and other diseases. The alliance are not innocent in all of this, they are a military organization you act as if they don't have demons of their own." - 10K, post 176.

[Onewomanarmy]

You are just making fun- I guess like me - I think some  lot here are just forgetting the explosion of script options such different race might introduce, anyway. Ie say for example that your story line have 10000 steps and each step might have 3 different outcomes. To compact the storyline variations a bit we funnel them at dramatic points/ combination points to 2500 critical paths. That still leaves 15606255000 nodes I have to cover for (voice-over/interaction/new alternatives). Now -of course -somebody getting some special alien wouldn't accept responses/actions/options 100% similiar/symmetric to human options. I need not explain further...

 

You're hurting my head with all these advanced explanations, I haven't had enough coffee yet 

[Derrame]

it's easier for the players to identify with a human protagonist,  just imagine if the protagonist was a hanar or an elcor...it's boring

[Sartoz]

That's not how business works. If you are in a video game industry you are supposed to cater to gamers and give what they want, and it's the video game designers job to create a game what people crave for and to create ways to make their video games better than their previous games. It's never about what BioWare or EA wants and if that's the case they going to ****** a whole lot of people off and go to someone else who can meet their demands and making better games than BioWare. Believe it or not BioWare is challenged by developers like CD Projeckt Red and Bethesda and other devs that can make better RPGs than them, if BioWare wants to stay relevant they have to listen to fans and listen to critics so they can be consistent of making games and learn from their mistakes and fix them. But we'll wait and see what they can offer to the table.

                                                                                      <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>

 

We just said the same thing.

EA must satisfy their investors by increase revenues on a year-by-year basis. That is their "wants"... actual it's a must have for a publicly traded company.  SP games are much more expensive than MP ones. Therefore, any game design with a SP campaign must be looked at through a cost analysis vs projected sales. I'm of the opinion that Bio / EA knows more about their target market than we do. That knowledge + what the competition is doing determines their game designs paths.

 

Like you, I will wait. Still, the focus on exploration is puzzling. Unless, exploration is key to resources, combat, tech blueprints, allies, colony worlds, solid story arc, side quests and keeping it fun, exciting, interesting and made to be a Mass Effect game.  How Bio will do all of that remains to be seen.

[10K]

Evidentally it did since you found it necessary make the claim in the first place and now I admit I am curious as to where I supposedly acted like you said. If you knew I hadn't said anything like that then why did you claim I had?

"And you act like as if the alliance has done nothing awful against humanity as well. BAaT, and intentional Eezo exposures to create biotics which leads to millions with cancer and other diseases. The alliance are not innocent in all of this, they are a military organization you act as if they don't have demons of their own." - 10K, post 176.

And here is where this discussion will end because you do not wish to stick to the main point which was about Cerberus and their agency to humanity. What I assumed you said is not relevant at all. It will just turn into a circular argument.

[Shechinah]

1. You list every act that Cerberus has done, but what does it matter?

 

2. We know Cerberus has done awful things, all three games have showed examples of their war crimes.  But the fact that they have done more to help combat the greatest threat ever to the galaxy, and help to try and save human colonies in ME2, is just prof of their goal to help humanity no matter what they have done. The alliance and council have done things to humanity as well, but when the reapers were taking human colonies and Shepard was screaming the reapers were coming for three games it seemed only Cerberus was listening and came to the aide of humanity.

The only reason Cerberus failed was because of aliens. If Illusive man would have never implanted himself with alien tech, he would have been the man he once was in ME: Evolution.

 

1. It most certainly does since I was stating that Cerberus were guilty of crimes against humanity. I was provided evidence to support my claim by listing what Cerberus had done that qualified as crimes.

 

2.  Regardless of their well-meaning motive and however beneficial the results from their experiments might have been, their methods and actions still constituted crimes against humanity because of what they were and how they were carried out.

 

You seem to be considering the means justified by the ends in regards to Cerberus but that is a different discussion.

[Shechinah]

And here is where this discussion will end

 

Yes, it seems so but I must disagree with the reasons you list as being why this discussion seems like it must end.

[Vortex13]

it's easier for the players to identify with a human protagonist,  just imagine if the protagonist was a hanar or an elcor...it's boring

 

Not necessarily. Human audiences were able to identify extremely well with a wheeled trash can that beeped and whistled in a certain science fantasy, so much so that said character is one of the most iconic parts of that setting. Well written, and well thought out 'alien' characters can be interesting, sometimes they can be more interesting than the human characters.  

 

 

 

Now with that being said, I do agree with the one side of the discussion here, that having a human only protagonist for ME:A will work in the game's favor. I detest the "Humans are special" trope as much as the next guy, and I don't want to see another human centric story, but keeping the PC limited to one specific species will allow the writers to better craft the narrative around them. I would love to play as Salarian, or heck even a Rachni or Elcor in a campaign, but that is not something that BioWare has shown that they are capable of doing any sort of justice judging by all their previous attempts at it.

 

I am not saying that they couldn't add in a racial slider for Mass Effect: Andromeda, but I am saying that diluting the player character that much will lead to the homogenization of the narrative, and I don't really want another DA:I scenario, where my Dwarf Inquisitor was just a short human with a beard, and had to have the basics of dwarven culture explained to him... by the human characters. Unless BioWare is willing to go back to a silent protagonist (they won't) we will never see the appropriate reactivity required to have a believable multi species PC. I mean, how many people really want their Asari character to overhear an Asari NPC go: "By the Goddess" only to stand there dumbfounded and then ask the NPC what she meant by that phrase. 

 

 

Now multiplayer on the other hand, that has absolutely no excuse for skimping on the various playable aliens, including the more exotic ones like the Rachni and Elcor.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not necessarily. 

 

[Vortex13]

And being able to identify the gender of a kitten helps you identify with it better how exactly?

[Master Warder Z_]

And being able to identify the gender of a kitten helps you identify with it better how exactly?

 

It doesn't?

 

I just found your chosen method of phrasing amusing.

[Hazegurl]

 

 

Good for you. As I said in my post, that doesn't apply to everyone.

However the assertion that being human only leads to the benefits described is wrong since not everyone experiences that and instead see no difference or experience the opposite.

 

I don't see how anyone could say that with Hawke. He had the most personal story out of all the BW protags. He had a mother, uncle, sister/brother who had been a part of his life for years. An entire family story. His brother or sister could be a warden or mage, his mother dies, his uncle is a shyt who gambled away their family fortune, and they were former nobility.  Hawke's story would not have worked if Hawke was an elf or a dwarf.

 

-His brother wouldn't have fought in the army with Aveline.

-An elf would have no reason to remain in Kirkwall after making their money because there is no way they would be able to buy a home in the noble quarter.  I would argue that even a human Hawke should have left but at least it's understandable why he doesn't. He's a noble, he reclaimed his family home for his mother's sake blah blah.

-A dwarf family can't have mages in it so there goes the entire Malcolm Hawke background, Bethany, and an entire DLC about Cory's connection to the Hawkes.

 

If a person doesn't like his story, fine, but to claim that there would have been no difference if Hawke was another race is just stretching it.  Sure they could have written Hawke as a another race or added additional races with different surnames but then the trade off is to remove everything that made Hawke' story personal in favor of a John Q Everyman protag....like the Inquisitor. Because there is no way they would have invested the resources into creating situations that is unique to an elf or dwarf PC. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't see how anyone could say that with Hawke. He had the most personal story out of all the BW protags.

I never said it wasn't personal. I said him being human only didn't ensure the story would be more engaging and immersive than if Hawke was able to be any of the races. 

[Hazegurl]

it's easier for the players to identify with a human protagonist,  just imagine if the protagonist was a hanar or an elcor...it's boring

True, but then again BW would never even pick these most alien type races to play because maybe less than 1% would play them. Instead it would be the more human-centric races chosen such as Turian, Quarian or Asari. 

 

 

I never said it wasn't personal. I said him being human only didn't ensure the story would be more engaging and immersive than if Hawke was able to be any of the races.

 

Ah, well you're right about that.  It doesn't matter what species a character is, there is always the potential for a bad story. But I believe what a lot of people are saying, myself mostly, is that multiple races almost ensures a less engaging and immersive experience due to preserving resources.  Too many small details get lost or discarded in favor of broad strokes.  I'd rather have a more solid and personal story throughout the game, even if it wasn't the greatest story ever told, than the blank PC who relies solely on headcanon and a few dialogue snippets.

[wright1978]

I don't see how anyone could say that with Hawke. He had the most personal story out of all the BW protags. He had a mother, uncle, sister/brother who had been a part of his life for years. An entire family story. His brother or sister could be a warden or mage, his mother dies, his uncle is a shyt who gambled away their family fortune, and they were former nobility.  Hawke's story would not have worked if Hawke was an elf or a dwarf.

...

If a person doesn't like his story, fine, but to claim that there would have been no difference if Hawke was another race is just stretching it.  Sure they could have written Hawke as a another race or added additional races with different surnames but then the trade off is to remove everything that made Hawke' story personal in favor of a John Q Everyman protag....like the Inquisitor. Because there is no way they would have invested the resources into creating situations that is unique to an elf or dwarf PC. 

 

Yeah basically there is a cost in terms of personal engaging storytelling. They could do lots of interesting things with Hawke that wouldn't be possible if his race was fluid rather than fixed. I don't have any issue with someone preferring the benefit of having fluidity over said cost, even if i don't agree but its reasonable to acknowledge the cost in relation as to why they'd want a fixed position.

[Kabooooom]

You're missing the point. "Special" is a comparative descriptor. It makes no sense to talk about it without a reference. Ignoring the anthropocentric assumption that alien species cannot naturally be space-faring, the point is that "special" is not about some manifest or divine destiny.

On Earth, humanity is arguably "special" compared to other species. Yet even within our own species, individuals are potentially "special". That humanity happens to be better than most species is no different form Einstein happening to be "better" than most of his contemporaries.

Sure, there could be better aliens. Or they could all be dumber, less capable, and we could be better. In reality, there's no moral or agency behind ability - it's just circumstance.

I can appreciate that you don't favour the literary point made in a "Humans are Special' story. It very much sounds like you want to make an entirely different point about the human condition. That's fair.

But otherwise, there's no point to this beyond the literary. The coincidental fact of whether humans are better (or worse) than other space-faring species - if such a thing is even ultimately possible - is nothing more than an accident of nature, no different than the very fact of our existence.

It's reasoning backwards from probability to reality, which is one of my biggest pet peeves.

We are arguably "special" compared to other species, sure. But Han's point, as I understood his reasoning (and I agree), is that there is nothing which makes us uniquely special, specifically.

To use your own example of comparing us to other species on Earth - every single thing that we have ever considered to be unique to the human mind has been demonstrated to exist to some degree in other species, with multiple species overlapping us in intellect or even surpassing us in some other feature. This is the field I specialize in - comparative neurology. I literally cannot think of a single thing that we have which another species does not (with the exception of culturally derived things like religion, which is irrelevant as culture itself exists in other species) - that said, it all exists on a gradation. We have sophisticated language, sophisticated reasoning, etc., and although I can point to a dozen species that overlap us in intellectual ability, we still ultimately surpass them. That makes us special, indeed. At this point in time, we are likely the most intelligent species that has ever existed on this world. But it doesn't necessarily make us unique. Other species come close, and if we went extinct I have no doubt that given sufficient time, another species would rise to take our place.