284 réponses à ce sujet

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

It's the video game designers job to CREATE a game that's original and engaging to people.  Your tenet limits game designers to being merely reactionary, not creative.  When they only respond to the demands of fans, we get the same game being made over and over and over again, just with different skins.  Nothing really new comes out.  Whereas, when fans give developers the latitude to be creative and imaginative, we get new innovative games that engage us in ways we never dreamed they could.
 
Do you honestly think that the fans and critics of ME:A are "consistent."  I see a lot of people arguing here... which means they are divided in their opinions.  If they listened to every fan/critic... their work would be anything but consistent... but of course, you are really saying they should only listen to the fans/critics who happen to agree with you and ignore all the other fans/critics who are in disagreement with you... which is BS, IMO.
 
As for their competition, I'm sure they know that they have competition in this industry... but that doesn't mean they should be limited to copying that competition.  I really don't want ME:A to be a carbon copy of Fallout 4.
 
What I want is something new and different... something that comes from their creative minds... minds more creative than my own.  And, if that means forfeiting some consistency from a different story written 10 years ago... I'll happily just make that leap of faith with them.
 
OP:  Your title implies that this thread is asking what is means to be human in Andromeda... I found it disappointing that your video really only explored AGAIN what it meant to be human in the Milky Way Galaxy of ME1 to 3.  There is absolutely nothing that says humans will be viewed in the same ways they were viewed in ME1-3.

So you think I want people to agree with me just by stating my own opinion? No I don't and I never expected people to agree with me anyways and don't jump to conclusions. And they should listen to fans and feedback from critics to learn from in order to make better games and staying ahead of the competition, I never said that ME:A should be like Fallout 4 but make it better than Fallout 4. My problem with BioWare is repetition they put the same tropes of their games like hero worshipping, humanity is special than any other race (which is a bunch of egotistical bullshit) and big threat/survival/hero saving the day cliché trope. And the video about humans is not appealing to make me play just human just because we're "special". Everybody is special and we all have a place in this universe, not just one species and screw everyone just because we self claimed to be special than everybody.

[Barquiel]

I honestly don't see how DA2 or the Mass Effect games have more compelling story arcs than the Bioware games which have race selection. Dragon Age 2 has been the target of a great deal of criticism and is generally considered to be inferior to Dragon Age: Origins/Inquisition. And Mass Effect? I really enjoy many NPCs, the lore and setting of the games...and feel that as long as that foundation exists, the same people who created it have the potential for some truly amazing things. But the overall plot narrative of the Shepard triology....I guess mediocre would be the right word (DA:I was certainly not a pinnacle of game writing either, but it wasn't worse than ME, imo).

And I don't see how Shepard has far more interesting qualities or is a more compelling character than the the inquisitor for example. I thought the Inquisitor offered more variance than most other Bioware protagonists in the past, and there are various conversations throughout the game which expand on your background (something I couldn't really do as Shepard)

[Hazegurl]

DA2 is hated not because of lack of race selection but because the design of Kirkwall was weak, we stay in one location and some weak outer areas,  the pacing of the timeline is a bit off, the combat was terrible, BW felt the need to get rid of most of the tactics from the first game when no one ever complained about it, being a Mage/Blood Mage or Templar spec in a game with a heavy Mage/Templar story meant nothing and the list goes on.  And of course some people hate it who have never even played it because they are just sheeps.  Origins was good, perhaps the best DA game and a lot of people have stated that Inquisition didn't even deserve it's GOTY award. Proof that race selection doesn't factor into whether or not a DA game is good.

 

What makes Shepard far more interesting than the Inquisitor is that he actually has a personality, real friends and a life.  His dynamic and romances with his squad mates over the course of three games will always hold far more depth than the IQ's few months spent with his companions.  There is no way a Citadel type of DLC would work with the Inquisition cast, heck that card game scene barely worked. It was jump cuts to awkward laughs, and "funny" stories that went nowhere.

 

My Shepard grew up on the streets of Earth, joined the military to leave his criminal life behind, killed a shyt ton of Batarians, became known as The Butcher of Torfan, When they thought he died they placed a flame on Torfan in his honor to which protestors tried to put out because of his actions there, He can't dance, but he can cook, he loves animals, and he and Kaidan finally got together after knowing each other for several years.

 

None of this is headcanon, it comes straight from the game itself.

 

My IQ. Was a noble mage who grew up in a devout family but isn't religious himself. Visited home by bribing the Templars, and his family is kinda ghetto, he stumbles into a room and gets the anchor. He meets a man named Dorian and they start a relationship after he becomes Inquisitor.

 

IMO, one story is far more richer than the other. Saying goodbye to the squad mates in ME3, telling Kaidan he'll always love him before sending him away, sabotaging the Genophage, shooting Mordin, and having a shootout with Wrex, two companions who saw Shepard as their friend for years, meeting up with Kelly Chambers and getting my fish back, then finding my lil Hamster lol!...I may have hated the ending but that game had some great moments.  So yes, Shepard is a far more compelling character than the IQ could ever hope to be and playing a renegade is just plain fun.

[Inkvisiittori]

DA2 is hated not because of lack of race selection

 

I hated it mostly because of lack of race selection (and my Inquisitor is much more interesting than Shepard ever was. Opinions!)

 

But that's Dragon Age. I love DAO & DAI and I will absolutely want every future DA game to have race selection. It's what makes those games interesting for me.

 

Mass Effect is completely different, however. I'm happy with human only for that game series (same with SWTOR where most of my characters are also human). I like the human story and the alien races we have seen so far haven't really been... that interesting? I have no interest in playing a krogan or turian or whatever... The original trilogy was all about humans and their place in the galaxy. I liked that. So I'm very happy with MEA having human protagonist... I hope the story will be even better than in the original trilogy. ME1 was interesting because the humans were like the underdogs who could become leaders of the new council at the end of the game. The sequels mostly focused on the reaper war (though I really liked Cerberus!) and the story of the humanity was kind of left in it's shadow. I hope this time it will not be forgotten. 

[Shechinah]

DA2 is hated not because of lack of race selection

 

People had different reasons as to why they disliked or downright hated some aspects or the entirety of the game. A lack of racial options was one of the reasons or even the reason for some of them. I know some people were unhappy about it before and after the game.
 

[wright1978]

People had different reasons as to why they disliked or downright hated some aspects or the entirety of the game. A lack of racial options was one of the reasons or even the reason for some of them. I know some people were unhappy about it before and after the game.
 

 

Lack of racial choice was in the gripes just its return implementation is in the gripes about DAI. 

The environmentals were the primary reason DA2 got such bad press more widely.

[Panda]

Different things for different folks. DAI was weak game for me, but race selection was pretty much best part of the whole game especially when they even added Qunaris as options. I think I'd be even more enthusiastic about race selection in ME, I don't think I have played scifi game before where you can chose to be alien. So there is nothing I could wish more from ME game at the moment.

 

So in terms of DAI being weak, I think it was open worldliness that brought lack of cinematic dialogues and important side quests-> tons of fetch one's. DA- or Bioware games in general- work better in tighter more story-driven package for me, focus on characters, relationships and story instead of exploring. DAI felt like Bioware tried to make Skyrim and sacrificed Bioware things in process. It's not bad game, but just different from first two and bad way for me. Of course people might disagree though, either love DAI most from series or not like it for different reasons.

 

I think DA2 was better without race selection. Very tight story with almost set protagonist- like protagonist- you can decide many things, but not that lot in the end- I don't think race selection would have worked. Though of course tight story could be told with dwarf, elf or qunari protagonist also without letting people to choose.

 

But then, is that tight story and protagonist always best choice? Not that lot role-playing opportunities if your choices are limited from the start and I think it lessens replay value of the game as well.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Why should humanity be special in that respect?

The other species would have had to overcome similar environmental challenges as our ancient ancestors, and would not have become masters of their own planet, let alone reach the stars...without the same intellectual curiosity, adaptability, resiliency, or determination.

Every time throughout human history when we've thought ourselves special, the universe has proven us wrong. The geocentric model of the universe went down in flames, as did the idea that we were created fully formed and separate from the animal kingdom by a divine being. The safe money is on that trend continuing if and when we ever find alien life.

The Humans Are Special trope is objectively stupid.

I do agree that that humans are special trope is pretty stupid and overrated, if they keep repeating the same tropes like they always do the game loses value. I would suggest that they should write a story about exploration and adventure in Andromeda like meeting and interacting with new species, explore planets, and make it adventurous and thrilling. It doesn't have to be "To get resources and build colonies for humanity to survive" or a "Human hero to save humanity by finding planets to colonize" Mass Effect is a huge series to make countless of different stories!

[Gothfather]

Hasn't been the case with Hawke or Shepard. Despite being human-only, they didn't have more engaging stories or immersive interactions with NPCs compared to the Warden or Inquisitor. It was either the same and more often than not it was the opposite. At least for some players.

And I would argue the opposite. The Warden is the worst protagonist of the last 10 years for bioware in arguably their best game in the last 10 years (I say arguably because many people hold this position even though I don't. I think it is their second best game of the last 10 years.) The protagonist writing was so poor for the Warden that it literally doesn't matter if the warden is Human, city elf, Dalish or Dwarven in the story once you leave the origin prologue story. You are never given an 'alien' perspective to the warden's character for being non human, you are in fact given the exact same perspective in the game regardless of race once you get to Ostagar, with a sprinkling of racial acknowledgement. I am sorry but people commenting I am an elf doesn't count for providing an elven perspective to the character. There is almost no changes to the warden's dialogue responses based on race. You would think being a different species would oh i don't know require writing that actually acknowledges that fact, but it hardly does in Origins and you are even less likely to actually say something different because of your 'alien' perspective as the protagonist.

 

There are real reason why this is the case, it requires a lot more effort which requires more resources in terms of money and man hours as much as player seem to think games should just be how they want they are finite creations that require practice skills to make and wishing doesn't make games or solve problems in development.

 

I personally think the the best protagonist bioware ever made was Hawke in their worse game DA2. More than any of the other games your personality was shaped by the actual writing and acting for the protagonist. There is a reason why Hawke scores high in polls for best protagonist even though DA2 is almost universally panned as Bioware's worse game.

 

Now because gamers are not a monolith demographic but rather many fractured demographics that like different thing many people will have varied opinions about what they like in a protagonist, one thing is clear from the data most people play human when given a choice and there isn't much evidence at all that suggests that racial choice is vital at all, in fact most data suggest it isn't. It makes a MINORITY of players happy but the cost has been high. Even Gaider has said in the past that hindsight being 20/20 perhaps they should have taken the resources used to add in Dwarves to origins and spent it else where given how few people actually bothered to play a dwarf.

 

I would argue also that most of the complaints about DAI can be traced back to too much player choice that is fluff and not enough substance. Doubling the cost of voicing the protagonist could be argued has a direct link to racial choice as humans and elves have European accents while Dwarves and Qunari have north American accents. Giving us racial choice all cost money and frankly would have hardly impacted sales at all if they were removed. The only meaningful racial choice was female elven mage but that is only meaningful because of the restrictions put onto an NPC, solas. And even then you are no given an alien perspective to the character because of this choice you simply open up a gender and race gate to a romance that opens allows for information about elven history to be revealed, but the Inquisitors' perspective is one of ignorance. This means that any race could be ignorant of the information so any race could have been written in to these scenes as there is no insight unique to the inquisitor's  perspective required.

 

Gamer want isn't sufficient in and of itself to warrant inclusion into a game. I know people have a hard time admitting that their wants are not paramount but just because people 'want' something doesn't mean it should be included nor that including said 'want' is the best thing for a game. Hell this could be applied to just about anything 'want' isn't synonymous with good, truth, or what is best for anything. It has been my experience that 'want' is more likely to be worse for a situation than better because want is emotional based and people think with their emotions more than their minds. 

[prosthetic soul]

It means we are vicariously living through a programmed conceptualization of a fictional character. 

[UpUpAway]

So you think I want people to agree with me just by stating my own opinion? No I don't and I never expected people to agree with me anyways and don't jump to conclusions. And they should listen to fans and feedback from critics to learn from in order to make better games and staying ahead of the competition, I never said that ME:A should be like Fallout 4 but make it better than Fallout 4. My problem with BioWare is repetition they put the same tropes of their games like hero worshipping, humanity is special than any other race (which is a bunch of egotistical bullshit) and big threat/survival/hero saving the day cliché trope. And the video about humans is not appealing to make me play just human just because we're "special". Everybody is special and we all have a place in this universe, not just one species and screw everyone just because we self claimed to be special than everybody.

 

So, which would you prefer - that Bioware made the game "better" by doing something to it you want... or that Bioware made the game "better" by doing something to it that someone else wants but you don't.  If you're like most people... you would probably only see the change as an "improvement" if it agrees with what you want to see done in the first place... otherwise, you would probably decry it as a "dumb move" on Bioware's part.

 

At this stage, I'm giving ME:A about a snowball's chance in a VERY warm place of pleasing anybody here.

 

Stats show that most people play as humans (even when given the opportunity to play as non-humans).  Most people like their player character to win at the game and most like to play while feeling someone "superior" to the enemies and, often, the NPCs in the game... otherwise they feel like they're losing the game.  But people don't want humans to be portrayed as being special in any way.  Add in the reality that, in order to relate to an alien, the tendency is to give them "human" characteristics and/or feelings and/or moralities, etc. because none of us are actually aliens.  How is Bioware supposed to reconcile both ideas to please everyone?

[Barquiel]

DA2 is hated not because of lack of race selection but because the design of Kirkwall was weak, we stay in one location and some weak outer areas,  the pacing of the timeline is a bit off, the combat was terrible, BW felt the need to get rid of most of the tactics from the first game when no one ever complained about it, being a Mage/Blood Mage or Templar spec in a game with a heavy Mage/Templar story meant nothing and the list goes on.  And of course some people hate it who have never even played it because they are just sheeps.  Origins was good, perhaps the best DA game and a lot of people have stated that Inquisition didn't even deserve it's GOTY award. Proof that race selection doesn't factor into whether or not a DA game is good.

Of course Hawke isn't the only reason why DA2 is disliked. But some people seem to think that a human protagonist means a better story, or better characters...and I couldn't disagree more.

I prefer the inquisitor because the game at least gives me the opportunity to expand her as a character as I see fit. Like with Josephine I can state how well my character got on with his family...or if she believes in the maker, I can mention that my mage inquisitor had a massive crush on a Templar when she was back in the Ostwick circle but never acted on it, I can state to Cassandra whether I consider the circle my home and would gladly go back to the free marches, even a conversation with Vivienne about what my relationship was with the First Enchanter at the Ostwick Circle...and so on. On the other hand, I always thought the lack of content and details regarding Shepard's background to be quite disappointing (and the writers had three games to expand her as a character!).

I agree that a citadel DLC wouldn't have worked in any Dragon Age game (I think Inquisition has excellent characters btw. Whether I love or hate them, by the end of the game I had strong feelings on all of them)...but I don't see how this has anything to do with Shepard being human. I mean, the only reason it worked so well with ME3 was because we had 3 whole games to bond with some of these characters while we move into every new DA game with a new cast.

[KaiserShep]

I'd be curious to see how much of the game and characters would have to be rewritten or removed if race options were added in the original Mass Effect trilogy. After all, you wouldn't start off on the Normandy with a turian or asari, which instantly removes Anderson, Chakwas, Kaidan, Joker and our good pal Pressly. Considering that the dialogue of ME1 seemed unfinished despite having just a human PC, I can't imagine what would have happened if they actually twice the number of vocal recordings. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

So, which would you prefer - that Bioware made the game "better" by doing something to it you want... or that Bioware made the game "better" by doing something to it that someone else wants but you don't. If you're like most people... you would probably only see the change as an "improvement" if it agrees with what you want to see done in the first place... otherwise, you would probably decry it as a "dumb move" on Bioware's part.

At this stage, I'm giving ME:A about a snowball's chance in a VERY warm place of pleasing anybody here.

Stats show that most people play as humans (even when given the opportunity to play as non-humans). Most people like their player character to win at the game and most like to play while feeling someone "superior" to the enemies and, often, the NPCs in the game... otherwise they feel like they're losing the game. But people don't want humans to be portrayed as being special in any way. Add in the reality that, in order to relate to an alien, the tendency is to give them "human" characteristics and/or feelings and/or moralities, etc. because none of us are actually aliens. How is Bioware supposed to reconcile both ideas to please everyone?

What I want from them is to have a balance of great story, great gameplay, superior environment/level designing, and make them fun and more engaging not just strongly focus on story only and leave everything else weak. And why not have playable races? They did a good job with that on Origins like I played a city elf and I like it how my character come from a society that oppresses elves and rise up to become something greater regardless of your race in the game. They can put playable races from Origins to good use on Mass Effect franchise to create diversity and they done a good job of creating alien cultures, beliefs, and other qualities, but when we're going to play just human I don't want to be another Space Jesus I just want to be an adventurer.

[mopotter]

Only DAO did it right. DAI is tacky.

I like DAI.  A lot.  But it would have been a bit more interesting if my character had been somewhere before everything went up in green wonder.  spend a day or two wondering around, then coming to in prison being told everyone is dead and not remembering.  Yeah, that would have been an added character developer for me.

[wright1978]

I like DAI.  A lot.  But it would have been a bit more interesting if my character had been somewhere before everything went up in green wonder.  spend a day or two wondering around, then coming to in prison being told everyone is dead and not remembering.  Yeah, that would have been an added character developer for me.

I've just recently started a new elven playthrough and I just thoroughly felt through the whole intro that the whole race thing was weakly tacked on to a entry point that really makes far more sense for the human origin.

[dragonflight288]

It doesn't matter to me if we play as a human and don't have race selection. This allows Bioware to alocate more resources to story, characters, gameplay and other features. Unless EA offered them extra resources to include playable whatever else race we may play as, it allows Bioware to more focus on the content of a character and how they interact with the world, and how the world in turn reacts to them, or galaxy in this case. 

 

Besides, I'm sure race selection will be part of multiplayer. 

[dragonflight288]

I've just recently started a new elven playthrough and I just thoroughly felt through the whole intro that the whole race thing was weakly tacked on to a entry point that really makes far more sense for the human origin.

 

Or even the Qunari origin as hired muscle meant to keep the peace. 

 

Human and Qunari are really the only ones that make perfect sense to be at the conclave. 

[mopotter]

Oh look, another pointless video. Just what I've been wanting!
 

You always say this, like race selection would always be an amazing feature. BioWare has never implemented race selection in a meaningful way. The closest they've come is with DAO, but race stopped mattering after the origin story. And in DAI race entirely irrelevant to the story and the people around the Inquisitor. Race selection also seems to have taken resources away from other things in DAI, like armor selection and a proper character creator. It also forced BioWare to change the story and cut story content in DAI. I know I would traded the pointless race selection for more/better story content. 

 

And pro-tip: you cannot RP an alien. You can only RP a human pretending to be an alien. If the aliens were so similar to humans that you could slip right into their shoes then there wouldn't be any point to adding race selection in the first place.

OK, the pro-tip - made me laugh. It's so true. 

 

I admit, I played 1 qunari in DAI and 2 elves.  All other times it's human.  Usually human female but I do have a couple of males. I loved all of my Shepards and liked my different Hawks.  As long as we have some kind of differences, sex, class, background, something, I can make it work.

[mopotter]

So you let your dog eat at your table? Do you let your dog use your toilet, or do you take it outside so it can urinate on a tree? I imagine you keep it on a leash as well. As much as you may think you treat your dog as a human you don't

I have seen Cats that use the toilet.  But Cats are in the 1% group.   Sorry, just felt the need to add this.  Doesn't happen often.

[mopotter]

I'd prefer it if the devs gave their undivided attention to stuff like the addition of new animations, more dialogue options, improved gameplay mechanics, AI, and HAIR.

YES.  It would be nice to have all of this in the game especially cool hair before mods are available. 

[mopotter]

I've just recently started a new elven playthrough and I just thoroughly felt through the whole intro that the whole race thing was weakly tacked on to a entry point that really makes far more sense for the human origin.

 

Yeah.  I think the others were just tacked on.  But have to admit I liked the idea that you had to be elf to romance Solas.  They did a good job with that. I know it's not a popular idea, but having one romance restricted to one of the races and having it be a well developed story line would have made a big difference in the way it feels, at least for me. 

[Cyberstrike nTo]

One of the worst choices they could have made. The franchise was in a position where all the races of the Milky Way that we know and love are in the same position both literally and metaphorically so is the perfect time to introduce race options and explore other stories, but instead it's going to be yet another game of human-centric ego stroking nonsense.

 

Also, half the facts in there are ridiculous. I'm not saying that about you BioFan, just that the 'facts' Bioware created like for example red and blond hair becoming rare are absolute nonsense. 

 

Go read Mass Effect: Revelation it states very clearly that natural blondes are extremely rare.

[UpUpAway]

What I want from them is to have a balance of great story, great gameplay, superior environment/level designing, and make them fun and more engaging not just strongly focus on story only and leave everything else weak. And why not have playable races? They did a good job with that on Origins like I played a city elf and I like it how my character come from a society that oppresses elves and rise up to become something greater regardless of your race in the game. They can put playable races from Origins to good use on Mass Effect franchise to create diversity and they done a good job of creating alien cultures, beliefs, and other qualities, but when we're going to play just human I don't want to be another Space Jesus I just want to be an adventurer.

 

As I said... my point is that BioWare seems to be in an impossible position... no matter what they do, no matter how they write this game, they have very little chance of actually pleasing almost anyone here.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Go read Mass Effect: Revelation it states very clearly that natural blondes are extremely rare.

I know where they say it. Doesn't change the fact that that 'fact' is absolute nonsense and is not based anywhere in actual scientific fact. There will still be plenty of people with blond and red hair by the time Mass Effect occurs, and long afterwords.