84 réponses à ce sujet

[Hiemoth]

I must admit that I am slightly nervous in posing this question, not because of fear of DA2 bashing, but rather because I worry about being able to frame question correctly.

 

I am currently replaying DA2 and was again struck by how much the implications and content of Anders comments and dialogue changes once you know his end game. Now, as the same holds true for Solas, although naturally very differently compared to Anders. So I thought to ask here which character better delivered on that change of perspective during the replay? And which pieces of dialogue truly stood out in those moments?

 

For me, I have to admit it is Anders. And the piece of dialgoue that really stood out for me was a discussion he had with Varric in Act 2, I think, where Varric is telling Anders about how he is like a brooding hero from a story who dies at the end. When Anders asks why the character needs to die, Varric says that the dark hero always dies at the end. At that moment it really sold the concept of Anders being the hero of his own story.

[Vit246]

Oh great. You've brought a s**tstorm to this side.

[Hiemoth]

Oh great. You've brought a s**tstorm to this side.

 

Why? I am not asking which one was better as a twist or was one bad, but which undercurrent people thought worked better?

[vertigomez]

I can't really compare the two. There's so much for Anders, for Solas, even Blackwall. Even Sebastian has some ominous banter with Aveline where she grills him about whether or not he's loyal to Kirkwall and his answers are incredibly evasive.

It's fun to replay the game and catch the little moments you missed, though...

[In Exile]

I must admit that I am slightly nervous in posing this question, not because of fear of DA2 bashing, but rather because I worry about being able to frame question correctly.

 

I am currently replaying DA2 and was again struck by how much the implications and content of Anders comments and dialogue changes once you know his end game. Now, as the same holds true for Solas, although naturally very differently compared to Anders. So I thought to ask here which character better delivered on that change of perspective during the replay? And which pieces of dialogue truly stood out in those moments?

 

For me, I have to admit it is Anders. And the piece of dialgoue that really stood out for me was a discussion he had with Varric in Act 2, I think, where Varric is telling Anders about how he is like a brooding hero from a story who dies at the end. When Anders asks why the character needs to die, Varric says that the dark hero always dies at the end. At that moment it really sold the concept of Anders being the hero of his own story.

 

They're just not comparable. Anders hasn't made a decision at the start of the narrative. DA2 is very much a story about how Anders becomes consumed by the spirit inside him and the abuses that surround him. The Anders we speak to in Act I is not the same person as Act III Anders.

 

Solas, however, very much is planning the same thing throughout the game. He doesn't have an awakening as to his means. It's almost the reverse - he realizes that the truth of the world is so much more complicated that he would like to believe (he learns the world is more "real" than he'd like to think it). Everything he says cuts with the double-meaning of his own moral struggle. Like his question after the Well of Mythal. 

 

Much of what we see about Solas isn't about how he sees himself as the hero of his own story - it's about how he would actually be the hero of the story if we just started from his perspective. It's really easy to write a narrative (one of the those "hard decisions" fan-wanking narratives we see, where the magnitude of collateral death you cause in an ends-justifies-the-means plot is just a measure of how much of an ubermensch you really are in the endgame) where Solas is just the hero throughout. All it takes is adopting his perspective about 1) what the natural state of the world is truly and 2) what beings are 'entitled' to exist.

[Master Warder Z_]

 Like his question after the Well of Mythal. 

 

Who is Mythal?

[Qun00]

Solas still goes further because it isn't just about his secret goal. It is his real identity.

[Master Warder Z_]

Solas still goes further because it isn't just about his secret goal. It is his real identity.

 

It really isn't all that big a deal.

 

I mean so what he has a couple of old stories, some fancy magic and a bald head.

 

He's still going to die at the edge of a sword just like every other DA antagonist.

[Addictress]

It really isn't all that big a deal.

I mean so what he has a couple of old stories, some fancy magic and a bald head.

He's still going to die at the edge of a sword just like every other DA antagonist.

No. He will EITHER die OR be redeemed.

[Master Warder Z_]

No. He will EITHER die OR be redeemed.

 

I will honestly be disappointed in that guy if he allows himself to be talked down.

 

He's hyped up his convictions and what he has sacrificed to do this, to throw that all way at the end?

 

Yeah, I'd be disappointed.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I will honestly be disappointed in that guy if he allows himself to be talked down.

 

He's hyped up his convictions and what he has sacrificed to do this, to throw that all way at the end?

 

Yeah, I'd be disappointed.

He could be talked down, so to speak, while keeping entirely with his principles. He's in a crisis right now b/c he's both acting for and against his principles at the same time. He's for freedom and the innocent being protected/helped. So on the one hand, he's got the innocent people he's "condemned" to this "world of tranquil" that he feels obligated to help (for both principle and out of guilt). On the other hand, he's now recognized that those inhabiting modern Thedas are people who are ALSO deserving of freedom and such. Currently he's assuaging his conscience and compromising by making his plans as supposedly painless as possible. Its a crap compromise and he clearly knows it, but its the best he thinks he can do to fulfill both obligations.

 

To talk him down, we'd have to find a third path that he currently can't see, a path that would allow him to follow his principles fully in other words. So, if we can find that, he absolutely should be talked out of his current plan. If we find that and he still refused to be dissuaded, then *I'd* be disappointed. lol

[Addictress]

I will honestly be disappointed in that guy if he allows himself to be talked down.

He's hyped up his convictions and what he has sacrificed to do this, to throw that all way at the end?

Yeah, I'd be disappointed.

Well it doesn't have to be weak like that. It's not like "meow, neverminddd" and then he slumps away. There could be some alternatives. For instance it can be very dramatic when a super villain, right when he is about to do something, instead kills himself. Or, he raises his hand to push that final button, or raises the weapon to slay someone at his mercy, only to drop the weapon at the last minute. If done right with enough suspense, it can be very dramatic. ie Russell Crowe in Gladiator (not a villain but a force of ruthlessness nonetheless in this particular scene) sparing the life of one of his biggest opponents, while Caesar sits amused and the crowd boos him with disappointment . Imagine some elves and other Elvehn are outwardly disgusted and angry with Solas for suddenly changing his mind at a critical juncture, and then you have a massive battle alongside Solas against all the elves and Elvehn.

[Hiemoth]

They're just not comparable. Anders hasn't made a decision at the start of the narrative. DA2 is very much a story about how Anders becomes consumed by the spirit inside him and the abuses that surround him. The Anders we speak to in Act I is not the same person as Act III Anders.

 

Solas, however, very much is planning the same thing throughout the game. He doesn't have an awakening as to his means. It's almost the reverse - he realizes that the truth of the world is so much more complicated that he would like to believe (he learns the world is more "real" than he'd like to think it). Everything he says cuts with the double-meaning of his own moral struggle. Like his question after the Well of Mythal. 

 

Much of what we see about Solas isn't about how he sees himself as the hero of his own story - it's about how he would actually be the hero of the story if we just started from his perspective. It's really easy to write a narrative (one of the those "hard decisions" fan-wanking narratives we see, where the magnitude of collateral death you cause in an ends-justifies-the-means plot is just a measure of how much of an ubermensch you really are in the endgame) where Solas is just the hero throughout. All it takes is adopting his perspective about 1) what the natural state of the world is truly and 2) what beings are 'entitled' to exist.

 

While I mostly agree with what was written, although I would argue that Solas and Anders are more alike than indicated here, the response does also indicate that I failed in my wording of the question.

 

Even though Anders does not know at the beginning of the story what he will do at the end, the writers do and there are discussions which have a different tone when you know Anders will do. Hence my Varric example. When it first happened, I probably didn't pay much attention to it as it just seemed like one more Varric joke. However, when you hear that banter about Varric's broody hero based on Anders needs to die at the end as that's what heroes do, it comes across very differently within the larger story when you know that Anders will end up on his knees in front of the destruction he has caused and willing to die as the hero.

 

That was my question. When you know the larger narrative, the larger story, which character has their banter and dialogue impacted more by that change in perspective.

[Qun00]

I will honestly be disappointed in that guy if he allows himself to be talked down.

He's hyped up his convictions and what he has sacrificed to do this, to throw that all way at the end?

Yeah, I'd be disappointed.

You can only be disappointed if it is unexpected.

What does the line "I would treasure the chance to be wrong once again, my friend" tell you?

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Well it doesn't have to be weak like that. It's not like "meow, neverminddd" and then he slumps away. There could be some alternatives. For instance it can be very dramatic when a super villain, right when he is about to do something, instead kills himself. Or, he raises his hand to push that final button, or raises the weapon to slay someone at his mercy, only to drop the weapon at the last minute. If done right with enough suspense, it can be very dramatic. ie Russell Crowe in Gladiator (not a villain but a force of ruthlessness nonetheless in this particular scene) sparing the life of one of his biggest opponents, while Caesar sits amused and the crowd boos him with disappointment . Imagine some elves and other Elvehn are outwardly disgusted and angry with Solas for suddenly changing his mind at a critical juncture, and then you have a massive battle alongside Solas against all the elves and Elvehn.

I would honestly love to see this kind of scenario for Solas. As much as he talks of his plans, I still have a hard time believing that, when push comes to shove, he'll actually do it in that critical moment. He's already responsible, in his mind, for untold suffering. Will he really cause more? Before Inquisition, I think the answer was a simple yes. Before Inquisition, modern Thedas was barely real in his eyes. But not now. I think he's already been too exposed to the current world and its people to destroy them all. He's posturing, he's got himself convinced he'll do it, but I'd like to think that, in the end, he won't be able to push the button.

 

But I am a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" kinda gal, as is my Lavellan, so I'll still have to be ready to persuade or stab him if need be. lol

 

On topic, I found reviewing Solas' comments after having completed the game more interesting than examining Anders' b/c, like others have said, Solas is actually hiding something the whole time. There are a lot more aha! moments and extra shades of meaning for him than for Anders once events happen. Anders you basically have to wait till Act 3 or so to start getting that.

[Addictress]

Anyways, I freaking love Anders as well. Anders and Solas. Mmm. My duality of angsty baes. My favorites.

I am indeed crazy.

[Master Warder Z_]

You can only be disappointed if it is unexpected.

What does the line "I would treasure the chance to be wrong once again, my friend" tell you?

 

That he has assured himself that it is the only way, he's freaking ego made flesh.

 

If he believes it to be the only way, he should stand by that conviction, I am so sick of the whole villain getting talked down trope in modern fiction. What happened to the days when if offered a chance to surrender, you merely stand up straight, stare straight ahead, repeat your creed and then die.

 

Honestly I respect how Loghain met his end more then anyone who falters from belief, especially belief that was convincing enough in the first place to lead to planned global holocaust.

 

._. Even if he can be talked down, tis sort of messed up you'd let the guy who was going to end all life in Thedas, if not beyond walk away into the sunset cus he's your waifu.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

._. Even if he can be talked down, tis sort of messed up you'd let the guy who was going to end all life in Thedas, if not beyond walk away into the sunset cus he's your waifu.

1) Planning to do something and actually doing it are different things. If he doesn't end up doing it, then he doesn't end up doing it. There's no moral culpability for something you consider doing and then decide against and he should be treated accordingly. 

 

2) I'm not sure if just letting him walk away would be the outcome of convincing him to change his plans. He might die as a result. He might stand and fight the Evanuris with you and die then. He might be still be judged for his involvement with Corypheus. Though I do admit it is likely our options will be kill or let him go, cus video game. 

 

3) You don't have to have romanced Solas to want to redeem/spare him if its a possiblity. And you know that.

[Reznore57]

1) Planning to do something and actually doing it are different things. If he doesn't end up doing it, then he doesn't end up doing it. There's no moral culpability for something you consider doing and then decide against and he should be treated accordingly. 

 

2) I'm not sure if just letting him walk away would be the outcome of convincing him to change his plans. He might die as a result. He might stand and fight the Evanuris with you and die then. He might be still be judged for his involvement with Corypheus. Though I do admit it is likely our options will be kill or let him go, cus video game. 

 

3) You don't have to have romanced Solas to want to redeem/spare him if its a possiblity. And you know that.

 

Problem is he already put his plan in motion and tons of people died.

Cory and the orb blowing up at Haven?It's Solas doing.

He was also chilling nearby Haven , following Cory when the drama happened.And As far as I know he did nothing to stop Cory when he saw the darkspawn getting in an area with a dense population.

[Master Warder Z_]

Problem is he already put his plan in motion and tons of people died.

Cory and the orb blowing up at Haven?It's Solas doing.

He was also chilling nearby Haven , following Cory when the drama happened.And As far as I know he did nothing to stop Cory when he saw the darkspawn getting in an area with a dense population.

 

Indeed.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Problem is he already put his plan in motion and tons of people died.

Cory and the orb blowing up at Haven?It's Solas doing.

He was also chilling nearby Haven , following Cory when the drama happened.And As far as I know he did nothing to stop Cory when he saw the darkspawn getting in an area with a dense population.

That is true. I was saying he shouldn't be held responsible for the end the world plans if he changes his mind before he does them.

 

But his involvement with Corypheus you mentioned needs to be addressed, imo. In the real world, I'd say a court of law would need to decide his punishment for being an accessory to the crime. In Thedas I'm not sure any one group has the authority to decide, so I think it would end up having to fall to the Inquisitor/whoever the new protag is. And then it will come down to circumstances at the time of judgement: is he repentant, is he willing to atone, does that matter to you, etc.

[Xilizhra]

That is true. I was saying he shouldn't be held responsible for the end the world plans if he changes his mind before he does them.

 

But his involvement with Corypheus you mentioned needs to be addressed, imo. In the real world, I'd say a court of law would need to decide his punishment for being an accessory to the crime. In Thedas I'm not sure any one group has the authority to decide, so I think it would end up having to fall to the Inquisitor/whoever the new protag is. And then it will come down to circumstances at the time of judgement: is he repentant, is he willing to atone, does that matter to you, etc.

Problematically, legitimate courts are effectively nonexistent in Thedas. So, yes, it'll need to be another protagonist decision.

[Master Warder Z_]

 In the real world, I'd say a court of law would need to decide his punishment for being an accessory to the crime.

 

Either the Monarchs of Orlais, Fereldan or the Divine would have authority and reason to prosecute Solas. The conclave was in Fereldan, a decent portion of the people at the conclave were Orlesian, and it effected the Chantry most of all.

 

Also, those three individuals have the ability to decree something and for it to effectively be law, so yeah that would work assuming a decapitation at the hands of the PC's sword wouldn't. I can't see anyone involved letting him live with that truth be told, even the Chantry has a limit to its mercy.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Either the Monarchs of Orlais, Fereldan or the Divine would have authority and reason to prosecute Solas. The conclave was in Fereldan, a decent portion of the people at the conclave were Orlesian, and it effected the Chantry most of all.

 

Also, those three individuals have the ability to decree something and for it to effectively be law, so yeah that would work assuming a decapitation at the hands of the PC's sword wouldn't. I can't see anyone involved letting him live with that truth be told, even the Chantry has a limit to its mercy.

 

And I can easily see Fereldan and Orlais fighting over who gets to have him, meaning in the end that neither will. It might default to the Divine, but then the Divine doesn't render judgement in criminal trials, as far as we've ever seen. Even the Exalted Council was more about facilitation of negotiations than issuing a decree, as far as the Divine's role in it went. In real life, the worst the Pope could ever do to someone was excommunicate them. Its the same with the Divine from what I can tell. Solas' crimes with Corypheus are not in her purview.

 

If he's truly repentant about his methods and there's a more dire threat that we can have him atone by helping eliminate (Evanuris, the Forgotten Ones, the dual archdemon blight some people are expecting), I can see reason to let him live. Its like how Loghain's fate is for a lot of people at that point.

 

I'm not saying this is definitely what will happen. In fact, I'm fairly certain the fact that he stood by, knowing what Corypheus was planning to do with the orb, won't be brought up in-game again. I'm just saying there are ways for him to be held accountable for that crime and still live.

[Master Warder Z_]

as far as the Divine's role in it went. In real life, the worst the Pope could ever do to someone was excommunicate them. 

 

._.

 

Never heard of Arnold of Brescia have you?

 

History lesson then.

 

He was ordered, and put to death by the Pope in 12th century. The Pope doesn't order executions modernly is what you should say, back a few centuries ago? Uh if you were labeled a malcontent or defaming the church? You could and would be put to death for it, have your remains cremated and then tossed into a river.