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[Mistic]

._.

 

Never heard of Arnold of Brescia have you?

 

History lesson then.

 

He was ordered, and put to death by the Pope in 12th century. The Pope doesn't order executions modernly is what you should say, back a few centuries ago? Uh if you were labeled a malcontent or defaming the church? You could and would be put to death for it, have your remains cremated and then tossed into a river.

 

You forget to mention that he was arrested in Rome, that is, in territory directly ruled by the Pope. It would be like comitting a crime in the Vatican and being arrested and judged in it. Outside Papal states, however, the actual power of the Pope plummets.

 

For all we know, the Divine doesn't have a territory that only she can administer. Maybe the Circles could be considered something like that, although we know from Asunder and DA:I that it was a signed accord between the former Inquisition and the Chantry which set the rules, not the Chantry alone. And we know that shared jurisdiction was not in theory, but in practice too, as Seeker Lambert proved with his rebellion.

[Master Warder Z_]

You forget to mention that he was arrested in Rome

 

And? That has no barring on the primary wounded party in this affair being the Chantry.

 

It was their divine that was killed, it was everyone in line to succeed her, the conclave was a incident that gutted them, and I doubt anyone would really object to the Divine basically having dibs on what is to be done with Solas Al Zawahiri.

[Forsythia77]

Anyways, I freaking love Anders as well. Anders and Solas. Mmm. My duality of angsty baes. My favorites.

I am indeed crazy.

 

I don't think this is crazy at all.  You like what you like.  I really like Anders and almost always have my Hawkes romance him.  Solas on the other hand makes me irrationally angry.  They both do horrible things but for some reason I can give Anders a pass since possession has shaped and consumed him (although, honestly Justice got killed off in my last Awakenings PT.  He totes shouldn't even be in Anders!  He's dead!).  Solas just has elven guilt.  Or something.

[Mistic]

And? That has no barring on the primary wounded party in this affair being the Chantry.

 

It was their divine that was killed, it was everyone in line to succeed her, the conclave was a incident that gutted them, and I doubt anyone would really object to the Divine basically having dibs on what is to be done with Solas Al Zawahiri.

 

The Chantry being the most injured party is not the issue here, but jurisdiction. It happens even with countries that do have jurisdiction in their own territories: if the criminal isn't in their country, they can only hope that the country where they appear again has signed an extradition treaty with them and that the crime has an equivalent there.

 

It's not impossible, however, that the Chantry has some kind of internal jurisdiction, not unlike canon law in the Catholic church. If it's recognized by other countries and the crime is accepted as such, they might ask for the prisoner to be handed to them.

 

Issues of jurisdiction appeared in DA:I too. Orlais was said to defer to the Inquisition's jurisdiction in several matters (most notably, in the case of Grand Duchess Florianne), Samson is claimed by several parties, and the Inquisitor themselves can claim lack of jurisdiction to refuse to judge Ser Ruth. So it's a concept Thedosians are familiar with.

[Reznore57]

Well Solas is a mage , judging mages is often left to the Chantry device.

With him having a hand in the death of the Divine , blowing up a peace talk and a holy ground ,he would be screwed if he faced any trial.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Well Solas is a mage , judging mages is often left to the Chantry device.
With him having a hand in the death of the Divine , blowing up a peace talk and a holy ground ,he would be screwed if he faced any trial.

Technically judgement would have fallen to the Templars, who in turn were under jurisdiction of the seekers, who were under jurisdiction of the divine. I think. Templars and seekers might be gone so still not sure who'd have jurisdiction there.

I suppose by this logic Cassandra might have the last word.

[The Ascendant]

Having trials would be an awesome addition for the next game. In order to legitimise your position you have to legally discredit your defeated enemies so you don't appear as an uncivilised thug. Especially in a country Tevinter.

[Master Warder Z_]

Basically I'm hoping Solas dies regardless of PC action.

They can either ship him to people who will kill or themselves with no middle ground. Also to hell with Tevinter, they should have no say with Solas.

It's a Thedosian problem, they were content to sit on their asses with Cory and they probably will do the same for the bald headed rat.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

They are not comparable

Anders likes kittens Solas like wolves 

[Colonelkillabee]

I'd say Solas sold it better, because Solas' plan seemed as though it had an actual end game. It may not be good for humans and the like, but it could very well achieve change in the world that could possibly help elves (though probably not, will likely blow up in everyone's face).

 

Anders' plan did not seem like a plan. Even if in hindsight I must admit what he did turned out to be for the best, and I always said **** the chantry anyway, when he did what he did, it was purely out of frustration and desperation. It didn't seem like he'd calculated anything, like it was something born from emotion, and it was.

 

Solas no matter what you think of him knows exactly what it is he's doing, risks and all. Anders may have as well, but Solas was clear minded in his decision.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I actually think it was highly calculated. He wanted open warfare between mages and templars, so he assassinated the Grand Cleric so the mad Knight Commander would try to murder the entire Circle, so the mages would be forced to fight for their lives. Ultimately he hoped the mages would win and be free, but he mainly wanted a war because he would rather mages die fighting templars than live under Chantry control. And he doesn't care how many people die in the process. 

[Hiemoth]

I actually think it was highly calculated. He wanted open warfare between mages and templars, so he assassinated the Grand Cleric so the mad Knight Commander would try to murder the entire Circle, so the mages would be forced to fight for their lives. Ultimately he hoped the mages would win and be free, but he mainly wanted a war because he would rather mages die fighting templars than live under Chantry control. And he doesn't care how many people die in the process. 

 

Anders's plan went even beyond that. He committed the act as an apostate from another circle who offered himself to the Knight-Commander right after the attack knowing both that Orsino would try to find a compromise to appease Meredith and that Meredith would still wipe out the Kirkwall Circle which had nothing to do with the attack.

[vbibbi]

My thoughts: I think both character arcs had potential but both were lacking in different ways.

 

I think Anders was overall more successful in demonstrating his spiral to the end with his personality changing between acts. But I think he needed to be more like DAA Anders in Act I and only increase the angst in Acts II and III. The game didn't use the time jumps as effectively as it could have. But looking from when we meet Anders to when the Chantry explodes, I can see the path taken to get to this point.

 

For Solas, I think there were hints sprinkled through the game, but all that we know for sure is that he's hiding something from us. There's not enough information available for a first time player to accurately predict his identity/later actions. I'm sure people predicted his true identity, but in hindsight looking at DAI I would not say it was clearly plotted as an "of course, why didn't I see this before?" moment as much as an "aha! so that's what he's up to!" moment.

 

I think one of the reasons I'm not really keen on Solas as a character (though as an antagonist I like him) is because he doesn't get much characterization other than "likes the Fade" and "likes history and is elfy" and "clearly has a separate hidden agenda". If we become friends with him he does say that he keeps being surprised by the PC and the modern world. But he never showed anything but politeness and a willingness to answer questions when we first talk with him in Haven. He doesn't treat the PC and companions as inferior beings or with pity, and the way he interacts with people doesn't really change throughout the game.

 

So it seems like he's more of a mouthpiece for the Fade and ancient elves than a fully independent character who just happens to be from a different world.

[Medhia_Nox]

I will honestly be disappointed in that guy if he allows himself to be talked down.

 

He's hyped up his convictions and what he has sacrificed to do this, to throw that all way at the end?

 

Yeah, I'd be disappointed.

 

I will consider him such a poorly written character if he can be talked down.  

 

Everything that has been written about him has shown him to be a genuine megalomaniac... that those who are friends/romances can get through that for a time is fine... it happens with crazy folks plenty.  But he should never be written to simply give up on what he "knows" is right because some modern elf trick tickled his fancy for a while.  

 

Anyway... I look forward to killing him.

 

@OP:  I think your question is actually an excellent one.  However, I am too far removed from DA2 to really compare them well.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I think one of the reasons I'm not really keen on Solas as a character (though as an antagonist I like him) is because he doesn't get much characterization other than "likes the Fade" and "likes history and is elfy" and "clearly has a separate hidden agenda". If we become friends with him he does say that he keeps being surprised by the PC and the modern world. But he never showed anything but politeness and a willingness to answer questions when we first talk with him in Haven. He doesn't treat the PC and companions as inferior beings or with pity, and the way he interacts with people doesn't really change throughout the game.

I disagree to an extent. He's polite in Haven sure, but he's also distant and very controlled, one could say cold (and I don't just mean cus he had no shoes lol). Then you get moments from him like those throughout "All New Faded for Her", his drunk-on-intrigue attitude slip in the Winter Palace, his curt and decidedly less polite attitude with Morrigan in the Temple of Mythal,  and his banter evolving his relationships with the rest of the inner circle and you see him basically thaw out. He was never a mean kind of cold, but there were walls and there was emotional distance and it lessens a lot over the course of the game. 

 

I will consider him such a poorly written character if he can be talked down.  

 

Everything that has been written about him has shown him to be a genuine megalomaniac... that those who are friends/romances can get through that for a time is fine... it happens with crazy folks plenty.  But he should never be written to simply give up on what he "knows" is right because some modern elf trick tickled his fancy for a while.  

 

Anyway... I look forward to killing him.

 

@OP:  I think your question is actually an excellent one.  However, I am too far removed from DA2 to really compare them well.

I think considering him a megalomaniac is a step too far for the moment. I see where you are coming from with it, but I don't think he qualifies just yet. He may in the future, depending on his actions. But right now I think he's someone who is genuinely trying to do something necessary for the greater good, rather than his intent being to exert his ego/power over others. He can easily slip into the latter in the future, of course. It'll come down to whether he really cares about what's right or not in the end. If you show him another path, will he be humble/willing enough to take it? Or will he not, and show in the process that it really is about ego?

 

See, one of the main differences btwn Solas and Anders is that Solas says he wants to be proven wrong. He leaves that door open. By Act 3, Vengeance/Anders moved well past that, to the point where he says there is no way he can be wrong. There is hope for the former. There wasn't any for the latter in the end.

[Xilizhra]

Basically I'm hoping Solas dies regardless of PC action.

They can either ship him to people who will kill or themselves with no middle ground. Also to hell with Tevinter, they should have no say with Solas.

It's a Thedosian problem, they were content to sit on their asses with Cory and they probably will do the same for the bald headed rat.

That seems improbable. No one with sympathetic qualities has been killed regardless of PC action in the series (as an antagonist) except for Orsino, and plenty of people complained about that. And I doubt Bioware would dare to do it for a love interest.

 

I will consider him such a poorly written character if he can be talked down.  

 

Everything that has been written about him has shown him to be a genuine megalomaniac... that those who are friends/romances can get through that for a time is fine... it happens with crazy folks plenty.  But he should never be written to simply give up on what he "knows" is right because some modern elf trick tickled his fancy for a while.  

 

Anyway... I look forward to killing him.

 

@OP:  I think your question is actually an excellent one.  However, I am too far removed from DA2 to really compare them well.

I strongly doubt that romancing him would be necessary for talking him down, so it wouldn't be romance that sways him.

[Shechinah]

I strongly doubt that romancing him would be necessary for talking him down, so it wouldn't be romance that sways him.

 

I would find it odd if a romance is necessary since he is shown to be prepared to sacrifice the woman he loves for what he believes might be the greater good.

 

It would make the most sense for it, in my opinion, to be dependent upon whether or not he was coming to see modern Thedas and it's people as alive since I think that is the criteria for him saying that he'll cherish the chance to be proven wrong.

 

One of my guesses is that Solas may wind up sacrificing himself to save modern Thedas. To be honest, I would not mind that terribly much and I am saying this as someone whose favorite romance in all of the games has been Solas. I feel the romance has properly introduced the element of tragedy so I do not feel like it would be a sudden thing to spring on the people who romanced him.

 

I would prefer him to be alive, however, and another of my guesses is that he may wind up depowered. 
 

[vbibbi]

I disagree to an extent. He's polite in Haven sure, but he's also distant and very controlled, one could say cold (and I don't just mean cus he had no shoes lol). Then you get moments from him like those throughout "All New Faded for Her", his drunk-on-intrigue attitude slip in the Winter Palace, his curt and decidedly less polite attitude with Morrigan in the Temple of Mythal,  and his banter evolving his relationships with the rest of the inner circle and you see him basically thaw out. He was never a mean kind of cold, but there were walls and there was emotional distance and it lessens a lot over the course of the game.

 

I do see what you're saying and can agree. I guess for me, in hindsight, his distant politeness doesn't necessarily equate to him speaking to people he considers Tranquil. Given that the most interaction he's had in the past few centuries are with spirits, I don't know that he would be able to conceal his disdain so well. This is the guy who killed a lieutenant because Felassan was sympathizing with modern elves. Yes, Solas needs to thaw his views by Trespasser if we're going to have a chance to convince him to stop his plans in DA4, but I never had the impression that he had any dislike for his surroundings. If anything, his dialogue with Varric seems like he's trying to convince Varric to reexamine traditional dwarven culture and try to reinvigorate it. He doesn't push too hard and it's more idle chatter than a heated debate, but his stance is "why don't you try to fix things?" rather than "things are botched beyond repair, no wonder you're on the surface."

[Qun00]

My thoughts: I think both character arcs had potential but both were lacking in different ways.

I think Anders was overall more successful in demonstrating his spiral to the end with his personality changing between acts. But I think he needed to be more like DAA Anders in Act I and only increase the angst in Acts II and III. The game didn't use the time jumps as effectively as it could have. But looking from when we meet Anders to when the Chantry explodes, I can see the path taken to get to this point.

For Solas, I think there were hints sprinkled through the game, but all that we know for sure is that he's hiding something from us. There's not enough information available for a first time player to accurately predict his identity/later actions. I'm sure people predicted his true identity, but in hindsight looking at DAI I would not say it was clearly plotted as an "of course, why didn't I see this before?" moment as much as an "aha! so that's what he's up to!" moment.

I think one of the reasons I'm not really keen on Solas as a character (though as an antagonist I like him) is because he doesn't get much characterization other than "likes the Fade" and "likes history and is elfy" and "clearly has a separate hidden agenda". If we become friends with him he does say that he keeps being surprised by the PC and the modern world. But he never showed anything but politeness and a willingness to answer questions when we first talk with him in Haven. He doesn't treat the PC and companions as inferior beings or with pity, and the way he interacts with people doesn't really change throughout the game.

So it seems like he's more of a mouthpiece for the Fade and ancient elves than a fully independent character who just happens to be from a different world.

I've thought so too. For a guy who supposedly didn't see modern people as worthy in the beginning, he shows genuine interest in the other companions and what they have to say.

No sign of cold indifference and contempt.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I do see what you're saying and can agree. I guess for me, in hindsight, his distant politeness doesn't necessarily equate to him speaking to people he considers Tranquil. Given that the most interaction he's had in the past few centuries are with spirits, I don't know that he would be able to conceal his disdain so well. This is the guy who killed a lieutenant because Felassan was sympathizing with modern elves. Yes, Solas needs to thaw his views by Trespasser if we're going to have a chance to convince him to stop his plans in DA4, but I never had the impression that he had any dislike for his surroundings. If anything, his dialogue with Varric seems like he's trying to convince Varric to reexamine traditional dwarven culture and try to reinvigorate it. He doesn't push too hard and it's more idle chatter than a heated debate, but his stance is "why don't you try to fix things?" rather than "things are botched beyond repair, no wonder you're on the surface."

 

I've thought so too. For a guy who supposedly didn't see modern people as worthy in the beginning, he shows genuine interest in the other companions and what they have to say.

No sign of cold indifference and contempt.

I think that's his natural compassion at play there. And his natural curiosity.

 

He saw a world of "tranquil" instead of people(which rankles me anyway cus dammit, Solas, Tranquil are still people, but w/e), but that doesn't mean he hated them. In Haven, he only shows disdain for the Dalish, really, when pressed. And that's not b/c they're Not-People, but b/c they're close-minded as far as what he wanted to tell them and likely tried to shoot him when he approached. Its more a personal annoyance at them there than anything else. Even when he talks about this "world of tranquil" he woke up to in Trespasser, I never got the impression he had contempt for the supposed tranquil of this new world. He had pity and he had guilt cus it was his fault. He doesn't blame those in modern Thedas for their "situation", he blames himself.

 

So you're not going to see contempt b/c there isn't any. You'll see emotional distance. He pities them, but he doesn't want to get attached, basically. He's seen that getting attached to these modern Thedosians can sway loyalties and derail plans, as was the result of Felassan's attachment to Briala.

And then his plans go boom and he *has* to get in close proximity and, while he's very closed off about himself in most ways that are meaningful at first, its both strategic and within his curious nature to understand those he's allying himself with. So he asks them questions, tries to understand their motivations and why they act how they do. I think his aim there was to able to predict how they'll act in a given scenario. It was strategic, at first. But by later banters (most of which have to take place post-Haven), he's giving comfort to Cassandra, playing mental chess with Bull, and exchanging snark with Dorian. He has a natural compassionate streak (its why he fought his slave rebellion in the first place, after all) and despite himself, he's now gotten attached.

 

As to the specific case with Varric, Solas is indeed asking him to examine dwarven culture. He sees parallels btwn what's happened with his own people and what is currently happening with the dwarves's civilization on the brink of collapse. And he likely remembers what they were back in the day, when they were "whole", according to his mind. I don't understand what the confusion is on why he's asking Varric about that? I think he's seeing someone who should in theory understand the desire to reclaim the past of his people and instead is very focused on the here and now/future. Its a parallels/contrast thing btwn his own attitude and Varric's and he debates that with him, such as in the old fisherman with the fermented fruit juice story he brings up. Their disagreement over the direction Cole should take is another example. Solas and Varric are very similar men in many respects, but they end up at different places philosophically. I think a lot of his banter with Varric is Solas feeling that out and then trying to understand it.

[In Exile]

I strongly doubt that romancing him would be necessary for talking him down, so it wouldn't be romance that sways him.

 

I don't think Bioware ultimately goes that route, but the romance route indicates that Solas is much further along on the path to seeing modern people as "real" and so grasping the magnitude of what he intends to do.

 

I've thought so too. For a guy who supposedly didn't see modern people as worthy in the beginning, he shows genuine interest in the other companions and what they have to say.

No sign of cold indifference and contempt.

 

People really misunderstand his Tranquil analogy. What Solas is trying to do is explain to the Inquisitor how fundamentally limited modern people are - they are essentially missing something to him so fundamental to being a fully realized person that he initially couldn't conceive of them as whole. 

 

The other thing is that Solas, unlike most antagonists, isn't actually someone who wants to hurt people. He's very aversive to it, apart from the moments where he totally loses his cool (and even then). He might not see modern people as people (as one might not see Tranquil as people) but that doesn't mean he thinks it right to mistreat them. 

[Xilizhra]

He saw a world of "tranquil" instead of people(which rankles me anyway cus dammit, Solas, Tranquil are still people, but w/e)

They're people like coma patients are people. They retain personhood status, but saying that they're people like anyone else is to drastically understate the amount of harm done to them.

 

 

I don't think Bioware ultimately goes that route, but the romance route indicates that Solas is much further along on the path to seeing modern people as "real" and so grasping the magnitude of what he intends to do.

You really think that Bioware won't give an option to save Solas?

[Steelcan]

 

You really think that Bioware won't give an option to save Solas?

save maybe, but certainly not aid

[Addictress]

*Completes Trespasser again*

 

Honestly

 

The final line in Trespasser, like at theee veeerryy end, is

 

"We will try to save our friend from himself... if we can."

 

That's literally out of the Inquisitor's mouth. So yes, I don't think it should even be an argument on whether attempting to redeem Solas in DA4 is a possibility.

[Master Warder Z_]

*Completes Trespasser again*

Honestly

The final line in Trespasser, like at theee veeerryy end, is

"We will try to save our friend from himself... if we can."

That's literally out of the Inquisitor's mouth. So yes, I don't think it should even be an argument on whether attempting to redeem Solas in DA4 is a possibility.

I hope he gets the TIM treatment... At least this time it's deserved.