138 réponses à ce sujet

[Abyss108]

Slavery is a term that is thrown around with very little meaning in the circumstances imo.

The difference between a slave and a servant seems paper thin in Thedas. They live and die at the whim of their lords.

Varania in DA2 resents freedom over the much less hard life as a slave.

Abelas is a slave because he wears Mythal's markings but he certainly wouldn't be the image of what springs to mind to most people in regards a slave(i.e some one like Orana). If everyone wears the brand of their god it renders the notion of slavery with far less power imo. We have no knowledge what levels of freedom different strata's of elven society had but it certainly seems over the top to go everyone was a slave working at the grindstone.

 

No, there is a very clear difference between a slave and a servant. It has nothing to do with working conditions. A servant is allowed free will and has the choice to quit. A slave does not. A servant's choice may be influenced to stay in poor working conditions due to poverty etc, but at the end of the day, they still have that choice. A slave has no choice in their own life.

 

It doesn't matter whether you treat a slave "well", and give them good working conditions, or whether they enjoy the work. It's the fact that you have decided that person does not deserve free will and that you have the right to their life that is the issue.

[wright1978]

No, there is a very clear difference between a slave and a servant. It has nothing to do with working conditions. A servant is allowed free will and has the choice to quit. A slave does not. A servant's choice may be influenced to stay in poor working conditions due to poverty etc, but at the end of the day, they still have that choice. A slave has no choice in their own life.

 

It doesn't matter whether you treat a slave "well", and give them good working conditions, or whether they enjoy the work. It's the fact that you have decided that person does not deserve free will and that you have the right to their life that is the issue.

 

The reality in a medieval society doesn't seem anywhere near as clear cut. None of the societies we see(Orzammar, Qun, Ferelden, Orlais,Tevinter) offer much social or geographic mobility, all are highly stratified. They seem degrees of unpleasant in structure. Free will is going to be very narrow at the bottom and it seems perfectly possible for a slave with a fair master to potentially have more freedom than a servant with fealty to an abhorrent lord. I think much more nuance is necessary. I may not like Qun say but I think simply dismissing it with word evil is wrong.

 

As for the elven, if everyone is a slave to a demi god then I struggle to see that simplistic terminology as that useful. If there was slavery outside of markings too, Was it stratified like tevinter(with various classes above a peasant slave class), was there freedom in how those followers/slaves served their god outside of worship. We simply lack a full understanding. What we know is that the elven empire generally flourished and created unparalleled marvels whilst everyone worshipped the god like immortal rulers and wore their markings. When removed they descended into civil war, strife, suffering and demise.

[greenbrownblue]

Their powers were not based on belief. They were just very powerful mages in an age where everyone had magic.

 

For them to be released, you would have to tear down the Veil, and they would likely be as powerful as they were, albeit with fewer followers.

I know what he is referring to. I made a theory on YT and here about evanuris and Solas being connected to a spirit who gain power from  - for example - belief. If that theory is right then imo they will be quite powerful coz Dalish still worship them.

[Abyss108]

The reality in a medieval society doesn't seem anywhere near as clear cut. None of the societies we see(Orzammar, Qun, Ferelden, Orlais,Tevinter) offer much social or geographic mobility, all are highly stratified. They seem degrees of unpleasant in structure. Free will is going to be very narrow at the bottom and it seems perfectly possible for a slave with a fair master to potentially have more freedom than a servant with fealty to an abhorrent lord. I think much more nuance is necessary. I may not like Qun say but I think simply dismissing it with word evil is wrong.

 

As for the elven, if everyone is a slave to a demi god then I struggle to see that simplistic terminology as that useful. If there was slavery outside of markings too, Was it stratified like tevinter(with various classes above a peasant slave class), was there freedom in how those followers/slaves served their god outside of worship. We simply lack a full understanding. What we know is that the elven empire generally flourished and created unparalleled marvels whilst everyone worshipped the god like immortal rulers and wore their markings. When removed they descended into civil war, strife, suffering and demise.

 

... Yeah, if you ever think slavery is defendable, we're just not ever gonna agree.

[Medhia_Nox]

 

From what i remember their powers were probably based on a belief system like spirits or you tube channels,more followers more power.

In modern Thedas if Solas will release them they shouldn't be technically as powerful as they were in Arlathan.

 

"IF" they're spirits... there's nothing at all that suggests a spirit who gains power from a belief or emotion loses it afterward (they can diminish if they're killed I believe - but that's totally different).  If everyone on Thedas stopped being afraid... there's no reason to think the Fear demon would die - it might change its form, sure. 

 

I do believe they are spirits - how they became spirits (natural or somehow elves that transformed into them) I don't know, don't care. 

 

I believe (HOPE) that we are even in a position to ally with them if we're ever the ones who face Solas.  For Solas fans... maybe we ally with them to simply subdue Solas... and for Solas haters... we crush the little bald rat faced bastard.  

[Sah291]

I don't agree with the slavery of the ancient elves, I just think it would make an interesting backdrop (thematically) to whatever main plot is going on with Tevinter and the Qunari (assuming that is where the next game takes place). I see a lot of interesting stuff to explore...the idea of idea slavery, magic and god kings, etc. Tevinter took a lot from ancient elven society, and Qunari society is very reactionary and different from both.

After Tresspasser it sounds like the Evanuris were more like Pharaohs, having slaves build massive statues of them, etc, and were basically Magisters. I think, from the Andrastians point of view, one of the reasons they fear magic, is actually because they fear rulers and civilizations like that returning. Possibly the Qunari too. It will be interesting to find out if they were originally former slaves of the elven empire, as I've seen some fans speculate.

But this is Bioware, where everything isn't black and white. Despite everything, ancient Tevinter and the ancient elves contributed a lot of knowledge and technology to Thedas (The Eluvians, etc), a lot of which was lost after the Veil went up, so there was both good with the bad.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sah291:  I find it interesting that people accept slavery so long as we get technology.  

 

The reality is... that great advances in civilization and technology (science) simply cannot be made without abusing something - be it nature or the populace.  It has never happened any other way... and never will. 

 

So, the question is... what does that say about civilization and the merits of technology? 

 

Our modern culture says:  "Totally acceptable!  Abuse away so long as I am distanced from it and I get a new iPhone every year!"  

 

I happen to side with a more Robert E. Howard mentality.  

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
But those are all reasons that make it an interesting and relevant theme, don't you think? It picks up where they left off, too. So I really hope we meet some of these Evanuris.

[Abyss108]

@Sah291:  I find it interesting that people accept slavery so long as we get technology.  

 

The reality is... that great advances in civilization and technology (science) simply cannot be made without abusing something - be it nature or the populace.  It has never happened any other way... and never will. 

 

So, the question is... what does that say about civilization and the merits of technology? 

 

Our modern culture says:  "Totally acceptable!  Abuse away so long as I am distanced from it and I get a new iPhone every year!"  

 

I happen to side with a more Robert E. Howard mentality.  

 

What makes you think there could never be another way?

[Hellion Rex]

@Medhia_Nox,
But those are all reasons that make it an interesting and relevant theme, don't you think? It picks up where they left off, too. So I really hope we meet some of these Evanuris.

I want to meet June precisely for this reason. He seems like he was their engineer, pioneering new types of technology for the elven people.

[Medhia_Nox]

What makes you think there could never be another way?

 

Do I believe scientific advancement, civilization and technology could advance without egregious abuses against nature and man?  No, not the way it currently is.

 

And I believe that the zeitgeist is one of distraction from the reality behind the electronic glow.  

 

I believe any sapient species that has achieved advancement through harmony would look nothing like our own and value radically different things (and would likely not be space-faring).  

 

We ARE the orcs of Mordor - the the Shire is scheduled for paving.  

 

So... now, feel free if you want, to ask why I use a computer if I believe this? 

I'll PM it though... cause this is WAY off track.  

[Abyss108]

Do I believe scientific advancement, civilization and technology could advance without egregious abuses against nature and man?  No, not the way it currently is.

 

And I believe that the zeitgeist is one of distraction from the reality behind the electronic glow.  

 

I believe any sapient species that has achieved advancement through harmony would look nothing like our own and value radically different things (and would likely not be space-faring).  

 

We ARE the orcs of Mordor - the the Shire is scheduled for paving.  

 

So... now, feel free if you want, to ask why I use a computer if I believe this? 

I'll PM it though... cause this is WAY off track.  

 

Well it's a fact that those ways are how we got to where we are today, it just seems strange to make the claim that that is the only way and things will never get better.

[Medhia_Nox]

Well it's a fact that those ways are how we got to where we are today, it just seems strange to make the claim that that is the only way and things will never get better.

 

It derives mostly because I believe that thinking "someday thing'll get better" is exactly how most people excuse the bad things happening "now".  

 

Are you aware we're at the beginning of an extinction event?  Look up "the sixth extinction".  It's not theory... or alarmist biology. The last one took out the dinosaurs.  Nature - it seems - might have contingency plans for irresponsible sapient animals.  

 

By 2050 biologists believe 30 - 50% of all animal populations will be extinct if they (animals) continue going extinct at their currently maddeningly elevated rate. 

 

-------

 

The Evanuris and their elven slaves were very much like modern humans.  Mining Titans... killing "The Pillars of the Earth" (at least Mythal was).  

 

And Solas wants to repeat the same careless actions by just tearing the Veil down... without consideration and knowledge of what will happen.  

 

It's the same basic irresponsibility our love affair with technology has spawned in the real world. 

[In Exile]

... Yeah, if you ever think slavery is defendable, we're just not ever gonna agree.

I think the argument is less that slavery is defensible and more that it's not clear that elven slavery under the Evanuris was all that different from "freedom" for the poor in Thedas.

[Abyss108]

It derives mostly because I believe that thinking "someday thing'll get better" is exactly how most people excuse the bad things happening "now".  

 

Are you aware we're at the beginning of an extinction event?  Look up "the sixth extinction".  It's not theory... or alarmist biology. The last one took out the dinosaurs.  Nature - it seems - might have contingency plans for irresponsible sapient animals.  

 

By 2050 biologists believe 30 - 50% of all animal populations will be extinct if they (animals) continue going extinct at their currently maddeningly elevated rate. 

 

-------

 

The Evanuris and their elven slaves were very much like modern humans.  Mining Titans... killing "The Pillars of the Earth" (at least Mythal was).  

 

And Solas wants to repeat the same careless actions by just tearing the Veil down... without consideration and knowledge of what will happen.  

 

It's the same basic irresponsibility our love affair with technology has spawned in the real world. 

 

I find the exact opposite.

 

If I believe nothing can ever get better, I have no reason to try and make things better.

 

If I believe things can get better, I'm more likely to try. Even if the ideal is impossible, if I aim for that impossible standard, I'll get further than if I didn't aim for it.

[Abyss108]

I think the argument is less that slavery is defensible and more that it's not clear that elven slavery under the Evanuris was all that different from "freedom" for the poor in Thedas.

 

It's different by definition. Slavery is the literal ownership of people and the removal of free will. Just because poor people don't have the same opportunities as everyone else doesn't mean they don't still have the right to make a choice. It might be a bunch of poor choices, but you still have the right to your own life.

[Vit246]

... Yeah, if you ever think slavery is defendable, we're just not ever gonna agree.

 

Just my two cents:

People tend to think of chattel Antebellum Slavery when they hear the word "slavery". But not all slavery was the same. Example, the Ottoman Janissarys were slaves, but they also tended to be an elite military caste with rights, privileges, and political power. Mamluks, too. 

Even in historical Africa, domestic slaves could own the profits of their labor and could marry and pass on inheritances to their children. They were generally not sold to others without extreme cause.

Again, not being a slavery apologist here.

[Sah291]

@In Exile,
Yeah, Modern Thedas is not without empires too, some of which have nevertheless retained some things borrowed from the ancient ones.

When Solas says they would have destroyed the world, he might have meant the blight, though. So if the original source of the blight was a corrupted Titan they mined, that might have been the reason behind the Veil. They were likely mining it to use as a weapon.

[Medhia_Nox]

I find the exact opposite.

 

If I believe nothing can ever get better, I have no reason to try and make things better.

 

If I believe things can get better, I'm more likely to try. Even if the ideal is impossible, if I aim for that impossible standard, I'll get further than if I didn't aim for it.

 

By all means... believe away... I look forward to you turning back the clock that started at the beginning of the Age of Enlightenment and became irreversible without calamity during the Industrial Revolution.  

 

Nobody would be happier to be proven wrong than I. 

 

NOTE:  What is "better"?  

 

Solas thinks destroying Thedas is "better".

 

"I" think the collapse of modern civilization and the natural repair of the ecosystem is "better". 

 

NOTE 2:  The beginning of civilization would have been impossible without slavery - that is not hyperbole.  

 

Whether it "had" to be that way is not relevant... the fact is, it was... everywhere. 

[Abyss108]

Just my two cents:

People tend to think of chattel Antebellum Slavery when they hear the word "slavery". But not all slavery was the same. Example, the Ottoman Janissarys were slaves, but they also tended to be an elite military caste with rights, privileges, and political power. Mamluks, too. 

Even in historical Africa, domestic slaves could own the profits of their labor and could marry and pass on inheritances to their children. They were generally not sold to others without extreme cause.

Again, not being a slavery apologist here.

 

And it doesn't matter that those slaves were better treated or only sold with " extreme cause". The fact that someone had a legal right to do that under any circumstance is evil. Whether those to exercise that right is irrelevant.

[Sah291]

NOTE: What is "better"?

Solas thinks destroying Thedas is "better".

"I" think the collapse of modern civilization and the natural repair of the ecosystem is "better".

Isn't that the same thing? You can't change things without destroying what is. The only difference is how rapidly the change is happening.

Solas never says he wants to restore the empire and the Evanuris system, that's pretty big assumption.

The only problem is apparently only ancient elves will survive the Veil coming down all at once. And that's a pretty huge problem if you aren't an ancient elf.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sah291:  It's not different. 

 

Unless you consider that I can't wipe modern civilization away... and Solas can (for Thedas of course).  

[IllustriousT]

 

NOTE:  What is "better"?  

 

Solas thinks destroying Thedas is "better".

 

"I" think the collapse of modern civilization and the natural repair of the ecosystem is "better". 

 

 

 So you agree with Solas? That destroying the unnatural element that is preventing the true state of an environment should be eliminated, and the true nature restored, even if that means the end of how we perceive our world?

[wright1978]

I think the argument is less that slavery is defensible and more that it's not clear that elven slavery under the Evanuris was all that different from "freedom" for the poor in Thedas.

 

I  don't find slavery nice. In an advanced setting like ME i find it worse though as the difference to the other forms of civilisation are generally more pronounced rather than feudal fantasy.

 

As  for Elven slavery, the notion of the entire empire being enslaved(wearing slave tattoos), as you say what exactly does that mean in relation to the current freedom levels of Thedas populations. It's an alien civilisation where getting tiny nuggets of information about. Slapping the generic word slavery just seems both toxic and likely inaccurate in terms of our understanding of the terminology.

[Medhia_Nox]

 So you agree with Solas? That destroying the unnatural element that is preventing the true state of an environment should be eliminated, and the true nature restored, even if that means the end of how we perceive our world?

 

I do not agree with Solas - because I do not know for a fact that the Veil is natural.  Can we argue that the environment is not natural?  That ecosystems are not natural?  

 

I also believe that what I want for the real world says quite a few negative things about my nature - things which I have reconciled in light of finding more empathy with a tree or a squirrel than I do with humans.  I am a misanthrope in the truest sense of the word.  Fortunately for me (and for the world?) what Solas can do... I cannot.

 

It's actually why I feel very strongly about Solas' character.