138 réponses à ce sujet

[Abyss108]

By all means... believe away... I look forward to you turning back the clock that started at the beginning of the Age of Enlightenment and became irreversible without calamity during the Industrial Revolution.  

 

Nobody would be happier to be proven wrong than I. 

 

NOTE:  What is "better"?  

 

Solas thinks destroying Thedas is "better".

 

"I" think the collapse of modern civilization and the natural repair of the ecosystem is "better". 

 

NOTE 2:  The beginning of civilization would have been impossible without slavery - that is not hyperbole.  

 

Whether it "had" to be that way is not relevant... the fact is, it was... everywhere. 

 

 

On your first note - I never commented on what "better" is, merely your assumption that becoming better is impossible, and it's better to be pessimistic about it. Which no matter what you believe in, seems the most flawed way to think/act on it. 

 

On your second note - I agreed that it was, I just question that it had and has to be.

[Abyss108]

I do not agree with Solas - because I do not know for a fact that the Veil is natural.  Can we argue that the environment is not natural?  That ecosystems are not natural?  

 

I also believe that what I want for the real world says quite a few negative things about my nature - things which I have reconciled in light of finding more empathy with a tree or a squirrel than I do with humans.  I am a misanthrope in the truest sense of the word.  Fortunately for me (and for the world?) what Solas can do... I cannot.

 

It's actually why I feel very strongly about Solas' character.

 

 

Depends on what your definition of "natural" is? The term has never made a great deal of sense to me.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Abyss108:  And it is an excellent question if we ever get a chance to start again.  

 

Fortunately - there are hints that nature actually does have a "do over" button and it's been pressed. 

 

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So, does Solas "have" to do what he's doing? 

Is there another way that he might approach this?  

We don't know about the Evanuris... perhaps they were not like Mythal and Solas... perhaps only Mythal killed a Pillar of the Earth and had her slaves mining it.  

 

We do know that humans proved to be mostly as degenerate as the elves... and the dwarves and Qunari aren't much better. 

 

Though... I WOULD say... that I'd like to see Qunari civilization practices as I think they "could" be more harmonious with the environment than more human models. 

 

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I would say that "natural" implies naturally occurring.  

 

Was the Veil in existence before Solas - or did he "invent" it? 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The dimension is - I expect - that the pre-Veil world is not the utopia that Solas experienced. Instead, it poses constant threat from spirits and the Titans to a degree that tyrant god kings and queens do not seem do bad just by comparison.

 

Well, ok, even assuming that is true, that likely still wouldn't make said tyrant god kings any more favorably predisposed towards the current people and nations of Thedas. 

[Abyss108]

 

I would say that "natural" implies naturally occurring.  

 

 

 

This has never made sense to me - the idea that something humanity creates isn't natural. If a bird creates a nest, it's natural. If a human builds a house, it's not natural.  And it can't be because a house destroys the environment, whilst a nest doesn't, because the environment has been destroyed by "naturally" occurring events numerous times in the past. Humans naturally occurred. Thus, things humans create are naturally occurring to me in the same way that anything created by a naturally occurring animal is natural. Why are humans different from every other species?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Abyss108:  Did I say a nest was natural?  It is not naturally occurring. 

 

But if we're going to pretend that the level of impact on a biodegradeable nest and a McMansion are the same... we really can't have a conversation.

 

Humans in the 1st World don't live in efficiency dwellings... 

 

And birds don't live in opulence. 

 

How is the difference not obvious?

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
Yeah I think it's possible there might be another way, but that's probably meant for the DA4 protagonist to figure out, since Solas is so tight lipped when you contront him about why his plan involves destroying Thedas. I don't think they wanted to give away too much. But I guess we'll (hopefully) find out. When he says he "has" to though, I think he literally means he doesn't have a choice, or simply cannot choose not to for whatever reason.

[Abyss108]

@Abyss108:  Did I say a nest was natural?  It is not naturally occurring. 

 

But if we're going to pretend that the level of impact on a biodegradeable nest and a McMansion are the same... we really can't have a conversation.

 

Humans in the 1st World don't live in efficiency dwellings... 

 

And birds don't live in opulence. 

 

How is the difference not obvious?

 

 

I thought you were arguing that the natural world was better? So, if bird nests are not natural, they should be destroyed too? And some natural events have completely destroyed ecosystems. What about a natural forest fire? Or a meteor? Or just natural changes in the environment due to species evolving to use up different resources? 

 

A bird would live in opulence if it were capable. It would not think to leave resources for other birds if it found more than it needed. Humans live in opulence because they are at the top of the food chain. If we didn't exist, another species would take that place and the environment would be changed in a different way.

[wright1978]

@Medhia_Nox,
Yeah I think it's possible there might be another way, but that's probably meant for the DA4 protagonist to figure out, since Solas is so tight lipped when you contront him about why his plan involves destroying Thedas. I don't think they wanted to give away too much. But I guess we'll (hopefully) find out.

 

I'm interested in how Sandal's prophecy will play into this. It seems to imply success but as you say it may be a case of success but just not with the terrible cost Solas anticipates and is willing to pay. I'm hoping that Evanuris and Mythal are the joker's in the pack.

 

 

I don't really buy into the anti technology, pro natural notion. Human population growth needs to be checked somehow but i don't see abandoning science and technology getting us anywhere desirable.

[sim-ran]

Nature has a do over button is a really poor expression. It gives the impression that nature is some sort of entity with a will and a purpose, which is absolutely not the case.

The things you are talking about are cause and effect. If we are destructive to the point that we make our own habitat unlivable for even ourselves that's not nature pronouncing a judgement upon us, it's just causality at its most basic.

[IllustriousT]

I don't really buy into the anti technology, pro natural notion. Human population growth needs to be checked somehow but i don't see abandoning science and technology getting us anywhere desirable.

 

 I can't live without my games 

 

 

I mean...I can...but, I really really don't want to.

[Sah291]

I'm interested in how Sandal's prophecy will play into this. It seems to imply success but as you say it may be a case of success but just not with the terrible cost Solas anticipates and is willing to pay. I'm hoping that Evanuris and Mythal are the joker's in the pack.
 
 
I don't really buy into the anti technology, pro natural notion. Human population growth needs to be checked somehow but i don't see abandoning science and technology getting us anywhere desirable.

Yeah I think Sandal's prophecy was about Solas not Cory.

Everyone has a different definition of what is natural. But even so, it can't necessarily always be a basis on which to live... A lot of things exist in nature that aren't necessarily beneficial or good. On the other hand, the unintended consequences of technology can be just as bad. I think aiming for balance and using technology wisely, is a better goal than simply aiming to be natural... But easier said than done, since that rarely happens.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Abyss108:  I'm going to try to relate this to the game and the thread because we're way off track.

 

Ancient elven civilization was like our modern one... they manipulated the natural environment without consideration.  However, for the ancient elves... they finally reached a tipping point (according to Solas) - when they started killing the Pillars of the Earth.  

 

That their civilization collapsed was a good thing for the sake of all of Thedas.  

 

Now, we don't know if ALL the Evanuris were part of this... or just Mythal (we can only confirm that she killed one I believe). 

 

It isn't about the act or whether it's "natural" - you're using natural as a substitute for "right" while I'm using it as a substitute for sustainable.  

 

Mining Titans?  Unsustainable.  

 

Creating the Veil?   Well - we don't know anything about the world before or whether Solas really created it.  We do know that afterward it did not inhibit life to continue in any way - and we're told that destroying it will cause calamity.  Did it cause spirits to be severed and seek to possess people?  Did it cause most everyone to lose magic?  We simply cannot know.  

 

Let's look at slavery - also unsustainable.  Sapient populations cannot be indefinitely controlled in such a fashion.  At least as far as the only sapient population we can study shows (that would be humans).  This has required real humans to come up with increasingly ingenious ways to enslave their populations without their populations considering it slavery (example:  the debt slavery culture of first world nations).  

 

So... we know that the Evanuris were practicing increasingly unsustainable (and to me, unnatural) acts.  Disaster was inevitable for them. 

 

All I see with Solas is someone from that time still thinking in the same way and looking to do more damage to the world through his "unnatural" thinking.

 

@sim-ran:  Calm down cause-head... I wasn't talking about "God" or "intelligent design".

 

EDIT:  

wright1978:  Climate change and the sixth extinction event don't care how we feel about what we've done.

 

I'd like a fairy tale world where humans learn to live sustainably as well - but I know that for what it is.  

[Abyss108]

@Abyss108:  I'm going to try to relate this to the game and the thread because we're way off track.

 

Ancient elven civilization was like our modern one... they manipulated the natural environment without consideration.  However, for the ancient elves... they finally reached a tipping point (according to Solas) - when they started killing the Pillars of the Earth.  

 

That their civilization collapsed was a good thing for the sake of all of Thedas.  

 

Now, we don't know if ALL the Evanuris were part of this... or just Mythal (we can only confirm that she killed one I believe). 

 

It isn't about the act or whether it's "natural" - you're using natural as a substitute for "right" while I'm using it as a substitute for sustainable.  

 

Mining Titans?  Unsustainable.  

 

Creating the Veil?   Well - we don't know anything about the world before or whether Solas really created it.  We do know that afterward it did not inhibit life to continue in any way - and we're told that destroying it will cause calamity.  Did it cause spirits to be severed and seek to possess people?  Did it cause most everyone to lose magic?  We simply cannot know.  

 

Let's look at slavery - also unsustainable.  Sapient populations cannot be indefinitely controlled in such a fashion.  At least as far as the only sapient population we can study shows (that would be humans).  This has required real humans to come up with increasingly ingenious ways to enslave their populations without their populations considering it slavery (example:  the debt slavery culture of first world nations).  

 

So... we know that the Evanuris were practicing increasingly unsustainable (and to me, unnatural) acts.  Disaster was inevitable for them. 

 

All I see with Solas is someone from that time still thinking in the same way and looking to do more damage to the world through his "unnatural" thinking.

 

@sim-ran:  Calm down cause-head... I wasn't talking about "God" or "intelligent design".

 

 

I am not using "natural" as a substitute for right, as I don't believe it is in general any better or worse than anything else. That was how I was reading your posts, as you were referring to how things should return to a more natural state. 

 

Anyway, if we are actually talking about whether is sustainable instead - how do you know that their state was/was not sustainable? For the sake of argument, how do we know the Evanuris wouldn't have figured out slavery = bad eventually and used their magic/technology in a better, non-destructive way? Why is the only option to wipe them out? And if Solas put the Veil there (which is what the game has told us), how is removing it "unnatural"? Modern Thedas seems to be evolving the same way our culture did - so it would follow they will end up where we are now - so wouldn't it actually be good to wipe out modern Thedas before it gets to that point? How do you know any other state is more sustainable than what we have now?

[wright1978]

Creating the Veil?   Well - we don't know anything about the world before or whether Solas really created it.  We do know that afterward it did not inhibit life to continue in any way - and we're told that destroying it will cause calamity.  Did it cause spirits to be severed and seek to possess people?  Did it cause most everyone to lose magic?  We simply cannot know.  

 

 

It did inhibit the connection of mortals to the fade, which is something Solas refers to as being natural beforehand.

As far as  i recall its only the destruction of the orb that makes Solas believe destroying artificial veil to cause calamity.

[Hellion Rex]

Nature has a do over button is a really poor expression. It gives the impression that nature is some sort of entity with a will and a purpose, which is absolutely not the case.

The things you are talking about are cause and effect. If we are destructive to the point that we make our own habitat unlivable for even ourselves that's not nature pronouncing a judgement upon us, it's just causality at its most basic.

Perhaps in the real world, but I don't think Thedas, a world rife and rampant with magic, necessarily plays by the same rules, so to speak. I don't think that it's much of a stretch to assume that what you dub to be "nature" can exist as a being or force that can exert its will and purpose on events.

 

Hell, to be honest, I've wondered if the Blight is nature's attempt at a "do over" button.

[Hellion Rex]

As far as  i recall its only the destruction of the orb that makes Solas believe destroying artificial veil to cause calamity.

Not necessarily. When he talks about his original plan to the Inquisitor, he mentions that if he had gotten the Anchor and had brought down the Veil like planned, the world would have burned "in the raw chaos".

[Medhia_Nox]

It did inhibit the connection of mortals to the fade, which is something Solas refers to as being natural beforehand.

As far as  i recall its only the destruction of the orb that makes Solas believe destroying artificial veil to cause calamity.

 

We don't know that... we have no examples except for Solas from before the Fade (and Abelas doesn't seem disoriented in any way). 

 

And Solas lies to you from the moment you meet him... so using him as an authority on anything is foolish at best in my eyes. 

 

It's curious... why do people just instantly believe Solas... 

[In Exile]

It's different by definition. Slavery is the literal ownership of people and the removal of free will. Just because poor people don't have the same opportunities as everyone else doesn't mean they don't still have the right to make a choice. It might be a bunch of poor choices, but you still have the right to your own life.

Slavery isn't the removal of free will. That doesn't make sense. You can't take away free will. What you can take away is the choice indirectly, by creating serious penalties for making them. That's how ownership of people works - you get to coerce people into doing what you want by e.g. lawfully being entitled to beat them etc. and their having no recourse in law.

It's very clear Abelas isn't a slave in that sense. Slavery is being used as far as we can tell partly metaphorically by Solas.

This is why the parallel to modern Thedas works. The fact that a person is "owned" is only part of what makes slavery so odious, because with ownership comes a series of rights on the part of the owner. If without calling it ownership you give the rich those same right over the poor you create the same system.

Anyway, I don't agree with the overall point because the difference isn't about choice but about your recourse in the case of abuse.

[Hellion Rex]

Side note, I wonder if bringing down the Veil might also bestow magic (or even return it) to random people, causing them to manifest raw power, contributing to the chaos. Newly born mages of any age suddenly gaining powers and hearing the whispers of spirits is bound to cause a little bit of chaos.

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
If something is unsustainable, it should, naturally, collapse. Unless someone is proping it up. Don't you think that's what we did in DAI, when we repaired the Veil? I guess a better question would be, is the Veil sustainable? Or was it ever meant to be permanent? The way Solas seems to be in a race against time makes me think it might have been on the verge of collapse anyway, and might still be. In fact it was when Cory showed up, and was already starting to weaken by the events of DA2. What if Solas is trying to make sure elves are on top before that happens.

[Hellion Rex]

We don't know that... we have no examples except for Solas from before the Fade (and Abelas doesn't seem disoriented in any way). 

 

And Solas lies to you from the moment you meet him... so using him as an authority on anything is foolish at best in my eyes. 

 

It's curious... why do people just instantly believe Solas... 

It's not necessarily that people instantly believe him, it's that he's been the only first hand source of the Evanuris that we've had so far, short of our very brief knowing Flemeth to be Mythal. So in that regard, while we should take his word with a whole lot of salt, neither do I think it right to automatically dismiss every word out of his mouth.

[wright1978]

We don't know that... we have no examples except for Solas from before the Fade (and Abelas doesn't seem disoriented in any way). 

 

And Solas lies to you from the moment you meet him... so using him as an authority on anything is foolish at best in my eyes. 

 

If you refuse to take Solas word then you can't take his claim of the destruction from removal of the veil as valid either.

 

Regarding climate change/extinction. Technology is likely the only means of avoiding complete extinction at this point.

[Abyss108]

Slavery isn't the removal of free will. That doesn't make sense. You can't take away free will. What you can take away is the choice indirectly, by creating serious penalties for making them. That's how ownership of people works - you get to coerce people into doing what you want by e.g. lawfully being entitled to beat them etc. and their having no recourse in law.

It's very clear Abelas isn't a slave in that sense. Slavery is being used as far as we can tell partly metaphorically by Solas.

This is why the parallel to modern Thedas works. The fact that a person is "owned" is only part of what makes slavery so odious, because with ownership comes a series of rights on the part of the owner. If without calling it ownership you give the rich those same right over the poor you create the same system.

Anyway, I don't agree with the overall point because the difference isn't about choice but about your recourse in the case of abuse.

 

 

It's the legal removal of free will. You obviously (without magic or whatever) can not actually remove it, but you can make it illegal to exercise that free will. Abelas is probably under a geas, in which case it has been decided that another person has the right to override his free will. Whether Mythal is the type to exercise that right or not, does not mean her having that right in the first place is less evil. 

 

If you give the rich that right over the poor without using the term "ownership"... Then you are talking about ownership without saying the word. But that's not the case in modern Thedas. Everyone has a legal right. It might be a legal right that is ignored or abused in certain cases, but just because that law is broken does not mean we should go back to a period where that isn't the law in the first place.

[Hellion Rex]

 In fact it was when Cory showed up, and was already starting to weaken by the events of DA2. 

How do you know that though? What evidence was there that the entire Veil's intergrity was failing? Kirkwall was certainly a soft spot in the Veil, but what about the rest?