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The Evanuris are weak?


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#101
Abyss108

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We don't know that... we have no examples except for Solas from before the Fade (and Abelas doesn't seem disoriented in any way). 

 

And Solas lies to you from the moment you meet him... so using him as an authority on anything is foolish at best in my eyes. 

 

It's curious... why do people just instantly believe Solas... 

 

There are very few situations where he lies, it's a last resort. He usually just omits very important things. 

 

It would be easier for him to just lie. The fact that he goes to the effort of not outright lying makes what he does say more believable. Just making things up contradicts the way he acts throughout the entire game. He also has nothing to gain from lying to you here.



#102
wright1978

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It's the legal removal of free will. You obviously (without magic or whatever) can not actually remove it, but you can make it illegal to exercise that free will. Abelas is probably under a geas, in which case it has been decided that another person has the right to override his free will. Whether Mythal is the type to exercise that right or not, does not mean her having that right in the first place is less evil. 

 

There's nothing evil about the notion of the overriding of free will. Our free will is regularly overriden(say jury service), that's the very nature of society.



#103
Sah291

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How do you know that though? What evidence was there that the entire Veil's intergrity was failing? Kirkwall was certainly a soft spot in the Veil, but what about the rest?


I don't, but if it was happening in Kirkwall, it could have been weakening in other hot spots where there is high enough magical energy. And as we saw after Kirkwall, and the Conclave explosion, there was a dominio effect with the chaos created by the war, with many rips/tears. We travel the map systematically repairing tears and calibrating orbs to strengthen it.

#104
Abyss108

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There's nothing evil about the notion of the overriding of free will. Our free will is regularly overriden(say jury service), that's the very nature of society.

 

 

We're just gonna have to disagree on that one. 



#105
Medhia_Nox

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There are very few situations where he lies, it's a last resort. He usually just omits very important things. 

 

It would be easier for him to just lie. The fact that he goes to the effort of not outright lying makes what he does say more believable. Just making things up contradicts the way he acts throughout the entire game. He also has nothing to gain from lying to you here.

@Abyss108:  So, you believe him because... "Why not."

 

I don't believe people who "omit very important things" - you are free to.



#106
Hellion Rex

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There are very few situations where he lies, it's a last resort. He usually just omits very important things. 

 

It would be easier for him to just lie. The fact that he goes to the effort of not outright lying makes what he does say more believable. Just making things up contradicts the way he acts throughout the entire game. He also has nothing to gain from lying to you here.

Well, while he does tend to omit rather than outright speak a falsehood, I honestly don't think it makes a real difference in the actions he has committed. He's still done many a terrible thing, all the while omitting rather than straight out lying.

 

 

And he certainly has everything to gain by not telling the truth, or at least all of it. He knows how tenacious we are by this point, seen the things we've done. He damn well knows (at least in the case of my Inquisitor) that I'm gunning for him, and it would be best not to give everything away.



#107
Medhia_Nox

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@Sah291:  Gotta say... I believe you're seeing what you want to with the Veil (that does NOT make me right).

 

Let's not forget that IF he made the Veil it was AT LEAST 3000 years ago - and I don't believe that there was any indication it was failing.

 

It grows weaker where there is a ton of bloodshed... that's what was happening in Kirkwall. 

 

So... even if that:  "Violence = Weaker Veil"  How could a weak veil be desirabe? 

Because the death of everyone might be exactly how he destroys it (it IS how Corypheus bunches a hole in it).



#108
Abyss108

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Well, while he does tend to omit rather than outright speak a falsehood, I honestly don't think it makes a real difference in the actions he has committed. He's still done many a terrible thing, all the while omitting rather than straight out lying.

 

 

And he certainly has everything to gain by not telling the truth, or at least all of it. He knows how tenacious we are by this point, seen the things we've done. He damn well knows (at least in the case of my Inquisitor) that I'm gunning for him, and it would be best not to give everything away.

 

I'm not talking about whether what he did was terrible or not. That's a completely different debate. If Solas believed you could affect him in any possible way, he would have killed you at the end of Trespasser, not simply lied and hope you didn't figure out the truth.

 

@Abyss108:  So, you believe him because... "Why not."

 

I don't believe people who "omit very important things" - you are free to.

 

 

No, I do not believe him because "why not", good job ignoring what I actually wrote. I believe him because if someone goes to the actual effort of figuring out how to phrase things so they are not outright lies for a full year, they are likely to continue acting in such a way. Anything else is inconsistent with his character.



#109
Medhia_Nox

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@abyss108:  Yes, and not being lied to outright is good enough for you to believe in someone. 

 

Once again... you are free to, but I decline. 

 

Until someone corroborates ANYTHING Solas says... I will not take what he says as anything more than manipulation.



#110
Abyss108

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@abyss108:  Yes, and not being lied to outright is good enough for you to believe in someone. 

 

Once again... you are free to, but I decline. 

 

Until someone corroborates ANYTHING Solas says... I will not take what he says as anything more than manipulation.

 

 

No, believing people generally act in a consistent way causes me to believe him. 



#111
Hellion Rex

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@abyss108:  Yes, and not being lied to outright is good enough for you to believe in someone. 

 

Once again... you are free to, but I decline. 

 

Until someone corroborates ANYTHING Solas says... I will not take what he says as anything more than manipulation.

What would you consider to be a valid source? Information perhaps gathered from one such as Mythal?



#112
German Soldier

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@Abyss108

Varterrals attacks everyone included modern elves, their duty is to protect their people the Ancien elves.
Codex are most of the time just an half truth.
Mythal was not banished by the Dread wolf yet the Dalish don't know this, same can be for another Evanuris.

#113
Abyss108

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@Abyss108

Varterrals attacks everyone included modern elves, their duty is to protect their people the Ancien elves.
Codex are most of the time just an half truth.
Mythal was not banished by the Dread wolf yet the Dalish don't know this, same can be for another Evanuris.

 

 

I'm going to need something more than a codex to accept this as truth. The codex is written from an in-game perspective and thus contains all the mistaken myths from the Dalish. 



#114
German Soldier

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There are very few situations where he lies, it's a last resort. He usually just omits very important things.

It would be easier for him to just lie. The fact that he goes to the effort of not outright lying makes what he does say more believable. Just making things up contradicts the way he acts throughout the entire game. He also has nothing to gain from lying to you here.

Solas act in a similar way of others DA characters,through deception (Like Morrigan, Isabela and Anders in ACTIII)
These kind of persons are for my perspective undeserving of trust.
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#115
German Soldier

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I'm going to need something more than a codex to accept this as truth. The codex is written from an in-game perspective and thus contains all the mistaken myths from the Dalish.

That was my point codex means nothing and they say in DAO that all the creators were banished by the dread wolf but this is false because Mythal wasn' t.
Solas never said to have banished all the Evanuris.

#116
Abyss108

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Solas act in a similar way of others DA chatacters,through deception (Like Morrigan, Isabela and Anders in ACTIII)
These kind of persons are for my perspective undeserving of trust.

 

 

I don't see what it has to do with "deserving" anything. 

 

People generally act in a similar way. If you are just going to throw away everything your enemy said simply because they are your enemy, you are just throwing away information you can use against them out of petty spite. 

 

Solas has consistently gone out his way not to outright lie to you. I have seen nothing to suggest his behaviour has changed, thus I will believe what he says, until we get to a situation where he feels threatened by you and may feel the need to change that behaviour.



#117
Abyss108

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That was my point codex means nothing and they say in DAO that all the creators were banished by the dread wolf but this is false because Mythal wasn' t.
Solas never said to have banished all the Evanuris.

 

Yes he did. He said he sealed them all away after they killed Mythal. You are directly contradicting what the game tells you now.


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#118
Medhia_Nox

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What would you consider to be a valid source? Information perhaps gathered from one such as Mythal?

 

Mythal would help, but someone who opposed Solas would be even better.

 

Let's see what the Evanuris have to say.  Let's see what we can glean from the Titans... or the Shaperate perhaps (though we know those documents have been terribly altered). 

 

Let's go to all the Dalish clans Solas hasn't yet polluted and gather everything.

 

Let's go to Minrathous.

 

Let's go speak with the Qunari... determine what they've discovered.

 

THIS should be the role of the Inquisitor now... and I'd rather play that.  Perhaps we even get to be an agent of the Inquisition next time.

 

But my point is... I simply cannot form a real opinion off one mad elf's testimony.  Especially when everything else I've read of that ancient world is absolutely horrible. 


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#119
German Soldier

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Yes he did. He said he sealed them all away after they killed Mythal. You are directly contradicting what the game tells you now.

I'm not contradicting anything but merely pointed out that your source for thy claim is Solas in Tresspasser and he doesn't know everything,just as he did not know that Mythal was still around ,he don't know if all the Evanuris are caged.

#120
Medhia_Nox

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Solas is also that guy that didn't know the Veil would destroy elven civilization and that Corpyheus wouldn't die from activating his sphere.

 

Whether he thinks he's telling the truth is irrelevant to me... at the very best he is an "unreliable narrator" - but I see him more as a deranged megalomaniac who's willing to believe anything that supports what he wants.


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#121
Jedi Master of Orion

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I think he did know that the Veil would destroy the Elvhenan, but was willing to pay that price. I get the sense he didn't know how it would affect the elves themselves though.



#122
wright1978

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I think he did know that the Veil would destroy the Elvhenan, but was willing to pay that price. I get the sense he didn't know how it would affect the elves themselves though.


This is a bloke who spent years fermenting a revolution. That sort of person generally thinks once x has gone it'll be a glorious golden age for the elven. so I'd guess he was equally surprised when the reality of civil war.

#123
dawnstone

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From what i remember their powers were probably based on a belief system like spirits or you tube channels,more followers more power.
In modern Thedas if Solas will release them they shouldn't be technically as powerful as they were in Arlathan.

 

I don't believe that they derived their power directly from belief, though with Thedean magic it's already kind of weird. It seems that magic there requires manipulating reality by force of will, so perhaps each Evanuris is a particularly strong-willed mage, and when exerting that will upon the magical world they lived in (including the elves in it) it more naturally bent itself to their desires.

 

As far as if/when they are released, whether they will be as powerful, it kind of depends on what exactly Solas did to them to be able to entrap them in the first place.

 

Did he weaken them? Were they already compromised by the taint/the Blight? Did he simply trick them into going into a room behind an Eluvian they could not break out of, where they've each been building up power for thousands of years? Are they the ones "asleep, masked in a mirror" that Cole refers to? Perhaps Solas tricked them into putting on some sort of device (mask) that would nullify their powers temporarily, and then quickly locked them behind an eluvian before they could figure it out. I personally believe that this last theory is very likely, and that this mural in Trespasser is Solas' (very self-congratulatory) commemoration of his deed, and each of the seven large panels, represents a trapped Evanuris, faceless, powerless, behind a dark mask.

 

Since we don't know the specifics, but Solas seems concerned about them, and Mythal/Flemeth believes she can still get her heaven-shaking revenge on them, and Abelas in the ToM says they must prepare for the ones who cast Mythal down, I believe they are still a credible threat, with abilities on par with those Mythal/Flemeth and Trespasser!Solas have demonstrated.

 

 

How do you know that though? What evidence was there that the entire Veil's intergrity was failing? Kirkwall was certainly a soft spot in the Veil, but what about the rest?

It may or may not have been failing before the Breach, but once a big enough hole is torn in it, it does begin to disintegrate, or shatter in a very horrific manner, as seen in the future world that you jump to in "In Hushed Whispers".

 

We do not know what method of the Veil's removal is worse, whether if letting it disintegrate naturally would be worse than, say if it is ripped off quickly like a band-aid as Solas wants to do. But it is known, because of "In Hushed Whispers", that if it is left damaged enough and allowed to degrade, it can completely fail. So, if there is, as you say, a "soft spot", and it is left unchecked, it may eventually become like a worn out patch in the knees of a pair of pants, threadbare, or non-existent, and the less integrity there is to the whole, the more likely it is for the whole thing to fail and break down completely.

 

And to add a little tinfoil, I am personally of the belief/opinion, that to remove the Veil in the manner he wants to, there is something in the Fade that Solas has to get to, perhaps some sort of device in the Black City, which generates the vibration that maintains the construct that people in Thedas call the Veil, as well as the Evanuris' little eluvian pocket prisons. Mostly because I don't believe something that big and that world-altering, could maintain itself for that long without a power source. Why he hasn't just gone and shut it down already, since he can ostensibly enter the Fade at will like Flemeth/Mythal could (as shown by her dragging Morrigan's son into the Fade via eluvian, in the worldstates that allow for it) probably has to do with his orb being part of the mechanism, so he has to find another orb or another means. Anyway, tinfoil over.


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#124
Abyss108

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I think Solas knew exactly what would happen. When you ask him why he did it, he says "every alternative was worse", not "I didn't think this would happen".  

 

There seems to be a lot of arguments made here that rely of everything we find out being a lie, simply for the sake of being a lie, rather than for any actual narrative reason.


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#125
Almostfaceman

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We don't know that... we have no examples except for Solas from before the Fade (and Abelas doesn't seem disoriented in any way). 

 

And Solas lies to you from the moment you meet him... so using him as an authority on anything is foolish at best in my eyes. 

 

It's curious... why do people just instantly believe Solas... 

 

Because a person tells a lie, that means everything they say is a lie? That's patently ridiculous. 

 

The reason people "believe" certain things about Solas is because the game is not that subtle. There are obvious "let's look into the mind-set of Solas" moments where he has private conversations with us, with our squad, with the denizens of Thedas. Bioware wants us to see that Solas may have looked at the world one way when he awoke, but through exposure to us and the Inquisition, saw that things weren't all that simple. 

 

In the end, Solas totally has you within his power. He can kill you and get rid of the possibility of you ever messing with his plans. He doesn't. He's conflicted for the reasons revealed throughout the game. 


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