28 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerrai]

Ok, I normally don't so this...but I have to know. In Dragon Age: The Stolen Throne, it was put forth that despite magic basically being theoretically limitless in its effects, its application by mages does have to follow at least one universal rule in order for magic to be applied on Thedas. Namely, that mages have to have a direct line of sight to a target in order for the magic to apply (if magic is being used without the aid of an artifact).

 

Now normally I would be like "ok" and take it with a grain of salt until the writers decided to change the rules again. But as far as I know, this is rule that has been upheld all the way up to Inquisition. Even in gameplay on my Xbox One, my Inquisitor will do a full 180 degree turn in order to apply a barrier on a companion that is behind me. In all of the cut scenes I remember, every mage I've seen has also been abiding by this "direct line of sight" rule (though it could be coincidence).

 

Yet in Trespasser, Solas is shown petrifying a qunari without even glancing in at her. It's not even from a weird angle either, we are shown Solas petrifying the Vidasalla  behind him with but a thought while looking dead ahead at the scenery.

 

So my first question: Is Dragon Age: The Stolen throne still canon? If so, is the "mage must have direct line of sight rule" still canon as well?

 

If the answer is "no" then this is a post worth forgetting about. My bad for wasting everyone's time. Let this thread be banished to page 2 and beyond.

If the answer to the above is "yes", then let's go on my second question: Why the hell is Solas able to break that rule?

[Melbella]

Maybe he saw her reflection in the mirror, a la Perseus and the gorgon?  

 

Seriously, though, that's a good question. I don't think you'd need it for AoE spells since those just cover a general area (I'm thinking back to DAO and casting blizzard behind a closed door) but in order to target a specific individual, I would think you'd have to be able to see where they are.

 

As for Solas, he is the Dread Wolf and a master of the Fade. I think he can do pretty much anything he wants, at least until we need to stop him.

[In Exile]

That rule didn't really work in DAO as you could cast through walls.

[thats1evildude]

That rule didn't really work in DAO as you could cast through walls.

Are you saying that Solas is now at least as broken as a DAO mage?

My God. We're really in trouble.

[Dai Grepher]

Are you saying that Solas is now at least as broken as a DAO mage?

My God. We're really in trouble.

That's why we need the Hero of Ferelden!

[Caritas_Lavellan]

Solas has eyes in the back of his head.

[thats1evildude]

That's why we need the Hero of Ferelden!

The dead one? I suppose we could fling his rotting corpse at Solas, but I'm not sure what that will accomplish.

[Chiramu]

That rule didn't really work in DAO as you could cast through walls.

 

And homing fireballs from dragons. 

 

OP, gameplay and lore are not equal . Lore sometimes suffers for gameplay, although I would like to be rid of the homing magic.

[Big I]

The dead one? I suppose we could fling his rotting corpse at Solas, but I'm not sure what that will accomplish.

 

Comedy.

[IllustriousT]

I would believe that if Solas has a different connection to the fade and is, at least in Trespasser and supposedly beyond, different in the amount of power and type of power than Thedosian mages, it is plausible that he does not need to follow the same rules. 

 

After his encounter with Flemeth/Mythal, I believe he now carries a source of magic that goes beyond what traditional mages would be able to conjure. 

[Big I]

What I've wondered about is how are mages held captive? You can sentence Alexius, Erimond and (I think) the Venatori from the Western Approach to imprisonment under Skyhold. What's to stop them using magic to escape? I think in Leliana's Song the mage Leliana works with is threatened with dismemberment to stop his magic, but would that even work? At the beginning of Inquisitor a MageQuisitor can say they don't need a staff to use magic.

[IllustriousT]

What I've wondered about is how are mages held captive? You can sentence Alexius, Erimond and (I think) the Venatori from the Western Approach to imprisonment under Skyhold. What's to stop them using magic to escape? I think in Leliana's Song the mage Leliana works with is threatened with dismemberment to stop his magic, but would that even work? At the beginning of Inquisitor a MageQuisitor can say they don't need a staff to use magic.

 

 That is true. In DA:O my mage often didn't use a staff. It should have been explained how Skyhold can imprison powerful mages. A special type of metal like dimeritium in Witcher (not to get into that, just using it for an example). Is there anything like that in DA?

[Ieldra]

@OP:

That assertion made by the book is wrong. While gameplay isn't a good indicator for lore and I discount arguments based on how mages work in gameplay, WoTI states, among other things, that a phylactery allows spells to be cast on a mage from any distance. So it is possible to cast spells at someone or something you can't see, likely by using some anchor connected to the target by the rule of contagion, a law implicit in most magical systems that says "once in contact, always in contact".  

[Iakus]

What I've wondered about is how are mages held captive? You can sentence Alexius, Erimond and (I think) the Venatori from the Western Approach to imprisonment under Skyhold. What's to stop them using magic to escape? I think in Leliana's Song the mage Leliana works with is threatened with dismemberment to stop his magic, but would that even work? At the beginning of Inquisitor a MageQuisitor can say they don't need a staff to use magic.

Well, no matter whether you recruit mages or templars, you still have some of each with the Inquisition from survivors of the conclave.  It's entirely possible the Inquisition uses some templars as jailers for mage prisoners.

[Medhia_Nox]

@OP:

That assertion made by the book is wrong. While gameplay isn't a good indicator for lore and I discount arguments based on how mages work in gameplay, WoTI states, among other things, that a phylactery allows spells to be cast on a mage from any distance. So it is possible to cast spells at someone or something you can't see, likely by using some anchor connected to the target by the rule of contagion, a law implicit in most magical systems that says "once in contact, always in contact".  

 

@Ieldra:  One would wonder why such a "terribly oppressive" system like the Circles wouldn't just kill any mage that escapes through their phylactery... 

 

If I were a group of religious fascists... that's what I'd do.  Spare the rod... spoil the child.  

 

@OP:  Honestly - don't think too hard about DA's magical system.  People, including myself, have basically fallen into the trap of finding patterns that simply aren't there.  DA's system is most arbitrary by convenience. 

 

Magical Law:  The Rule of Cool

[vertigomez]

Doesn't some mook or something in one of the games say they heard mages can't cast spells if you cut off their hands? Maybe it's a common assumption (like the line of sight thing) to ease the fears of non-mages, but rly I can't imagine it making a difference. Isn't magic mostly willpower?

Are you saying that Solas is now at least as broken as a DAO mage?

My God. We're really in trouble.

*reminisces about Storm of the Century*

[LightningPoodle]

It could be chalked up to him being an Ancient Elf and therefore, a master of magic.

 

Edit:

 

Not only an Ancient Elf, but one deemed worthy enough by his peers to be called a God.

[Dai Grepher]

The dead one? I suppose we could fling his rotting corpse at Solas, but I'm not sure what that will accomplish.

If you didn't keep your Hero, then you get a "Game Over" at the Solas fight every time.

[Mistic]

The dead one? I suppose we could fling his rotting corpse at Solas, but I'm not sure what that will accomplish.

 

Remember that we have necromancy now. If you didn't save your Warden, you'll get a Zombie Warden. Everybody wins!

 

As for the rules of magic, we have what was said in The Stolen Throne and in a codex entry. A closer look at them reveal that they are not so absolute as we may think.

 

First, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my impression that TST was talking specifically about Wilhelm and his role in a battle. Maybe he needed to see his targets for the spells he wanted to use, but lore about phylacteries or gameplay suggest that it's a limit that can be overcome with some creativity. It wouldn't be different from archers having to see their target in theory, but still being able to kill a target out of sight if their arrows travel in a parabola over their barricades, for example.

 

Second, the cardinal rules in the codex are stated to be serious and universal, yet we have broken one of them in DA:I with no ill results: entering the Fade with our bodies. Compared to that, Solas using a spell against an enemy right behind him looks easy.

[Lazarillo]

That's why we need the Hero of Ferelden!

Seriously, with the kind of spells Solas is flinging out willy-nilly, he just needs a good Mana Clash to the face. Problem solved.

[vertigomez]

If you didn't keep your Hero, then you get a "Game Over" at the Solas fight every time.

Turns out the only way to defeat Solas is to give him an impassioned speech about friendship and love. HoF can't do that 'cause they're mute.

[IllustriousT]

Turns out the only way to defeat Solas is to give him an impassioned speech about friendship and love. HoF can't do that 'cause they're mute.

 

  Maybe the silent hero would drive him crazy to the point where he starts screaming out his plans...you know, since no one asked him. His reaction to someone just staring at him would have been priceless. 

[thepiebaker]

While I don't dive into the codex or novels wouldn't those be from the point of view of a non god level being and therefore as Solas is so powerful he's able to circumvent. He is also looking at an eluvian so reflection? It is also years past him losing his orb... he could have found another or reforged it.

[thats1evildude]

Seriously, with the kind of spells Solas is flinging out willy-nilly, he just needs a good Mana Clash to the face. Problem solved.

 

There were enemies immune to Mana Clash in DAO.

 

  Maybe the silent hero would drive him crazy to the point where he starts screaming out his plans...you know, since no one asked him. His reaction to someone just staring at him would have been priceless. 

 

Maybe the Hero of Ferelden could distract Solas with hand signals while the Inquisitor slipped up and stuck a dagger in him.

[RoseLawliet]

@OP:

That assertion made by the book is wrong. While gameplay isn't a good indicator for lore and I discount arguments based on how mages work in gameplay, WoTI states, among other things, that a phylactery allows spells to be cast on a mage from any distance. So it is possible to cast spells at someone or something you can't see, likely by using some anchor connected to the target by the rule of contagion, a law implicit in most magical systems that says "once in contact, always in contact".  

 

Wait, wait. What? The templars had voodoo dolls all this time and didn't do anything?