993 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

I prefer bad writing over willingly taking a new type of lyrium (just look at it, what could possible go wrong   ). Taking red Lyrium was a choice. It's what the commanders did, and it's what the rank-and-file were abiding by to "clean the disease" of mages. I have very little sympathy for them.

Not to mention that some of the templars when you are lifting the banners openly complain that they aren't killing mages. This plus that templar complaining that the Inquisition isn't punishing mages and the Silver Shield pretty much confirm that they are still the same mage haters I've always hated.

 

If the templars were to be reformed, better to side with the mages so that the bad templars get killed and the good templars that left the order before can help mentor the next generation of templars into hopefully being better people. 

 

Too bad for them in my canon the templars are dead and the Inquisition has pretty much taken up their role under Divine Leliana.

 

 

I also find it funny that being completely supportive of the old order winds up putting a tyrannical mage in power, the very same thing the templar supporters were trying to fight against. Irony is so funny

[Steelcan]

Not to mention that some of the templars when you are lifting the banners openly complain that they aren't killing mages. This plus that templar complaining that the Inquisition isn't punishing mages and the Silver Shield pretty much confirm that they are still the same mage haters I've always hated.

 

If the templars were to be reformed, better to side with the mages so that the bad templars get killed and the good templars that left the order before can help mentor the next generation of templars into hopefully being better people. 

 

Too bad for them in my canon the templars are dead and the Inquisition has pretty much taken up their role under Divine Leliana.

 

 

I also find it funny that being completely supportive of the old order winds up putting a tyrannical mage in power, the very same thing the templar supporters were trying to fight against. Irony is so funny

Not punishing mages who are known to be guilty of crimes?!  The horror, wanting mages held accountable for their actions.  I know some mage supporters seem to think that the mages deserve a free pass for resembling whatever real life parallel they want them to, but saying they should immune to the law...

 

If you want to reform the Templars its best to do it while working with the best the templars have to offer, ie the likes of Ser Barris.  There's no reason to think that the rank and file of the templars are by definition worse than those who left the order.  They are proven to just as capable of helping mages and the smallfolk in war table missions.

 

If you think the Templars are gone even under Divine Leliana, boy have I got news for you...  Not only does Tresspasser bring back the status quo back for all the world states it goes out of its way to show that there's precious little change.  Even in my allied Templar game there are two rival organizations for mages.

[Silcron]

Not punishing mages who are known to be guilty of crimes?!  The horror, wanting mages held accountable for their actions.  I know some mage supporters seem to think that the mages deserve a free pass for resembling whatever real life parallel they want them to, but saying they should immune to the law...

 

If you want to reform the Templars its best to do it while working with the best the templars have to offer, ie the likes of Ser Barris.  There's no reason to think that the rank and file of the templars are by definition worse than those who left the order.  They are proven to just as capable of helping mages and the smallfolk in war table missions.

 

If you think the Templars are gone even under Divine Leliana, boy have I got news for you...  Not only does Tresspasser bring back the status quo back for all the world states it goes out of its way to show that there's precious little change.  Even in my allied Templar game there are two rival organizations for mages.

 

 

That's the thing isn't it? It seems that no matter what in the grim darkness of the far future there is always war...sorry, been reading up on 40k lore. *ahem* In the inclusive fantasy of TheDAS there will always be templars and mages, fighting to a degree. Can't go around making any kind of big change now, can we?

 

I mean, it's not like we ever went in a sort of academic expedition and discovered something as unimportant as the origin of lyrium and dwarf culture, right? And even if we had, what sort of reason could we ever had to share that kind of knowledge with anybody? Preposterous.

 

Think about it. Kept the Anvil of the Void? Curious we never hear of dwarves having more golems. The Ashes of Andraste? If there were any left curious how no one wonders what became of them. A Mage-Templar war? It's not like we always end up with Not-Circles and Not-Templar or a variation in between. Titans? You always smile, it's such a dirty secret you share with Valta. Solas' plan? I don't know if this set of examples shows anything but I get a feeling that the veil won't be disappearing any time soon. The qunari invasion? My guess is that at best they will only get hold of a part of Thedas that we will likely only visit for a mission nad won't be back, like Therinfall.

[Iakus]

Not to mention that some of the templars when you are lifting the banners openly complain that they aren't killing mages. This plus that templar complaining that the Inquisition isn't punishing mages and the Silver Shield pretty much confirm that they are still the same mage haters I've always hated.

 

If the templars were to be reformed, better to side with the mages so that the bad templars get killed and the good templars that left the order before can help mentor the next generation of templars into hopefully being better people. 

 

the entire leadership of the Templars is destroyed in Champions of the Just.  They do't even have many veterans, let alone officers any more.  Perfect for reforming.

 

 

 

Too bad for them in my canon the templars are dead and the Inquisition has pretty much taken up their role under Divine Leliana.

I also find it funny that being completely supportive of the old order winds up putting a tyrannical mage in power, the very same thing the templar supporters were trying to fight against. Irony is so funny

Allying with the Templars supports Cassandra, actually.  Conscripting the mages favors Vivienne.

[Xilizhra]

If you think the Templars are gone even under Divine Leliana, boy have I got news for you...  Not only does Tresspasser bring back the status quo back for all the world states it goes out of its way to show that there's precious little change.  Even in my allied Templar game there are two rival organizations for mages.

Actually, the epilogue explicitly does not talk about the templars returning, nor does it mention that the Chantry is involved in Vivienne's Circle. Vivienne's basically just running a rival College with a different name.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Not punishing mages who are known to be guilty of crimes?!  The horror, wanting mages held accountable for their actions.  I know some mage supporters seem to think that the mages deserve a free pass for resembling whatever real life parallel they want them to, but saying they should immune to the law...

 

If you want to reform the Templars its best to do it while working with the best the templars have to offer, ie the likes of Ser Barris.  There's no reason to think that the rank and file of the templars are by definition worse than those who left the order.  They are proven to just as capable of helping mages and the smallfolk in war table missions.

 

If you think the Templars are gone even under Divine Leliana, boy have I got news for you...  Not only does Tresspasser bring back the status quo back for all the world states it goes out of its way to show that there's precious little change.  Even in my allied Templar game there are two rival organizations for mages.

And what proof do you have that anything that templar says is accurate? How do you know he isn't either exaggerating something to make mages look worse or just hates mages? Considering how easily Cass dismisses what he says, I think its fair to say that what he's saying isn't all that bad or is completely false. However, if it was a mage complaining that the Inquisition wasn't punishing a templars he says are guilty of heinous crimes, does that automatically mean that mage is right? Or do you think just he's right just because he's a templar despite not having proof or saying what crimes have been committed.

 

If it turns out they are guilty, they'll be punished just like any templars who are guilty of crimes would be. I've never said mages shouldn't be never be punished for crimes. You're just strawmanning and quite badly at that.

 

Also no, I don't find all that much redeeming from the normal batch of templars. The games have made it clear that the decent templars like Barris and Evangeline are the minority and that the majority are bad. Heck, some of the templars complain that they aren't killing mages during the banner raising scene at Therinfal. The Silver Shield ending also proves that the templars still hate mages and Barris can't do crap about it. One man cannot single-handedly redeem a corrupt organization. The info we've received from templars who left the order prior to the game indicate that they are the decent templars. Getting rid of all the bad ones and letting new templars be mentored by the surviving good templars after siding with the mages is more likely to result in overall decent templars as opposed to keeping the old corrupt order and hoping they change their views.

 

 

Lastly, I know, but the fact that the the College works kind of pokes holes in pro-templar views. Plus, the templars aren't as strong or numerous as in other endings which is a plus. Plus, Divine Leliana is the only one that does something about the chantry's racism. I consider that a bonus. The College works, non-humans get more rights, and I get to keep Cass. I consider that an win

[Colonelkillabee]

I prefer bad writing over willingly taking a new type of lyrium (just look at it, what could possible go wrong   ). Taking red Lyrium was a choice. It's what the commanders did, and it's what the rank-and-file were abiding by to "clean the disease" of mages. I have very little sympathy for them.

I'll take the red lyrium considering I think that the fact that they try different kinds of lyrium all the time is a valid excuse, whereas the mages at the worst followed someone that said siding with the Tevinter was a good idea, and some even agreed. And at best, that someone maybe was effected by blood magic, but her followers weren't and still decided it was a good idea to side with tevinter, lol.

 

So on one side, Templars may be oblivious enough to take some sketchy looking lyrium they couldn't possibly have known would make them monsters. On the other hand, we have blatant stupidity and betrayal.

 

Ignorance or Stupidity... I'll go with ignorance, since everyone's ignorant to red lyrium but everyone knows just how bad Tevinter is.

 

Granted, Southern Thedas has done little to deserve the mages' loyalty... still, some things can't just be swept under the rug.

[Iakus]

 

Also no, I don't find all that much redeeming from the normal batch of templars. The games have made it clear that the decent templars like Barris and Evangeline are the minority and that the majority are bad. 

And it's clear that the decent mages like Bethany and Rhys are in the minority and the majority are bad.

 

I can make broad indefensible statements too 

 

 

Heck, some of the templars complain that they aren't killing mages during the banner raising scene at Therinfal.

And some of the mages can't wait to sail off to Tevinter to live a life where they rule over muggles.  So what?

[Xilizhra]

And some of the mages can't wait to sail off to Tevinter to live a life where they rule over muggles.  So what?

Citation needed on that precise sentiment.

[Colonelkillabee]

Citation needed on that precise sentiment.

Just talk to the mage in the tavern of redcliffe after you speak with the tevinter.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Just talk to the mage in the tavern of redcliffe after you speak with the tevinter.

If we're going by that logic, templars like Alrik, Karras, and Mettin are the majority too.

[Iakus]

Citation needed on that precise sentiment.

Linnea springs immediately to mind

[Colonelkillabee]

If we're going by that logic, templars like Alrik, Karras, and Mettin are the majority too.

He said "some" not most, and some of the mages would prefer being in charge rather than in borderline prisons. No surprise there. Honestly, I would too. But they should be prepared for the consequences of such a decision, not whine when it backfires.

[Iakus]

If we're going by that logic, templars like Alrik, Karras, and Mettin are the majority too.

You are going by that logic

[thesuperdarkone2]

And it's clear that the decent mages like Bethany and Rhys are in the minority and the majority are bad.

 

I can make broad indefensible statements too 

So I suppose the codex entries saying that templars are picked more for their fanatacism rather than any morals, Cole outright saying good templars are the minority, and the Silver Shield ending kind of prove my point.

 

Care to try again

[Colonelkillabee]

And mages are always in one way or another responsible for the world almost coming to an end :/

[thesuperdarkone2]

And mages are always in one way or another responsible for the world almost coming to an end :/

And here I was thinking out Bethesda forum experiences made us friends.

[Colonelkillabee]

And here I was thinking out Bethesda forum experiences made us friends.

Rofl I am your friend, but friends don't have to agree This is nothing, you should see me and Celan debate about elves and humans. You'd think we were worst enemies when we're actually Bffs.

 

Celan is Addai here.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Rofl I am your friend, but friends don't have to agree This is nothing, you should see me and Celan debate about elves and humans. You'd think we were worst enemies when we're actually Bffs.

 

Celan is Addai here.

At least you're still better than some of the other people in this thread

[Steelcan]

Actually, the epilogue explicitly does not talk about the templars returning, nor does it mention that the Chantry is involved in Vivienne's Circle. Vivienne's basically just running a rival College with a different name.

you're smart enough to figure out that BioWare was intentionally rolling back the epilogue slides to make things more level for DA4.

[Iakus]

So I suppose the codex entries saying that templars are picked more for their fanatacism rather than any morals, Cole outright saying good templars are the minority, and the Silver Shield ending kind of prove my point.

 

Care to try again

Show me these codex entries

 

Cole?  He says not enough good Templars stand up to the rotten ones.  Which is true enough.  But CotJ cleans house with the Templars, so we can rebuild them.

 

I ally with the Templars when I go that route.  There is no Silver Shield.  Just Templars rediscovering what it means to be Champions of the Just.

[Iakus]

you're smart enough to figure out that BioWare was intentionally rolling back the epilogue slides to make things more level for DA4.

If Vivienne's Circle doesn't have Templars, I will be VERY surprised.

 

Heck under Divine Leliana, I wager nations of the Southern Chantry will have their own Templar units to protect their people from mages running amok since the Chantry won't be able to anymore.

[Master Warder Z_]

Show me these codex entries

 

He's cherry picking wording.

 

They want a warrior who will kill a possessed child if the need arises, these aren't insane zealots.

 

EDIT: Here is the codex in question.

 

http://dragonage.wik...entry:_Templars

 

Specifically this portion.

 

While mages often resent the templars as symbols of the Chantry's control over magic, the people of Thedas see them as saviors and holy warriors, champions of all that is good, armed with piety enough to protect the world from the ravages of foul magic. In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices.

[Barquiel]

I'll take the red lyrium considering I think that the fact that they try different kinds of lyrium all the time is a valid excuse, whereas the mages at the worst followed someone that said siding with the Tevinter was a good idea, and some even agreed. And at best, that someone maybe was effected by blood magic, but her followers weren't and still decided it was a good idea to side with tevinter, lol.

 

So on one side, Templars may be oblivious enough to take some sketchy looking lyrium they couldn't possibly have known would make them monsters. On the other hand, we have blatant stupidity and betrayal.

 

Ignorance or Stupidity... I'll go with ignorance, since everyone's ignorant to red lyrium but everyone knows just how bad Tevinter is.

 

Granted, Southern Thedas has done little to deserve the mages' loyalty... still, some things can't just be swept under the rug.

 

The original deal wasn't great, but with Fiona being desperate and her back against the wall understandable (imo). It's indentured servitude with the promise of freedom after their dues are paid, or fighting an endless and unwinnable war against religious fanatics. And if they lose? That the templars treat them like human beings is clearly documented in the annullment in which every mage gets a fair trial...

 

Put aside the pretentious bravado, what else would they accomplish by staying in Redcliffe? Hoping that Ferelden would defend them? Teagan couldn't even deal with the crazies out in the Hinterlands, let alone with the templars in Therinfal if they decide to attack the village.

 

Maybe red lyrium is not "common knowledge", but I think they could have known. The events in Kirkwall are not exactly a big secret (we have Varrics book for example). And the templars who took it followed an outspoken lunatic by their own accord...for months, even before the red lyrum thing. I can't feel sorry for them.

[Colonelkillabee]

 

The original deal wasn't great, but with Fiona being desperate and her back against the wall understandable (imo). It's indentured servitude with the promise of freedom after their dues are paid, or fighting an endless and unwinnable war against religious fanatics. And if they lose? That the templars treat them like human beings is clearly documented in the annullment in which every mage gets a fair trial...

 

Put aside the pretentious bravado, what else would they accomplish by staying in Redcliffe? Hoping that Ferelden would defend them? Teagan couldn't even deal with the crazies out in the Hinterlands, let alone with the templars in Therinfal if they decide to attack the village.

 

Maybe red lyrium is not "common knowledge", but I think they could have known. The events in Kirkwall are not exactly a big secret (we have Varrics book for example). And the templars who took it followed an outspoken lunatic by their own accord...for months, even before the red lyrum thing. I can't feel sorry for them.

 

You give the benefit of the doubt to people that sided with Slaver mages, but damn templars for not following what most thought to be exaggerations from a story telling Dwarf and listening to their commander.

 

That's the problem and why these discussions go on and on. Bottom line? They're both fuckups, but I find Templars to be the lesser of said **** ups. I admit yes the mages indeed thought they had little choice, but there is always another choice. They chose the bad one. I am a leader of a political/military group that is trying to bring order to a land that is in chaos. I'm not about to put all of that at risk by trusting people with terrible judgement and intellect.

 

Simple as that. You think that siding with the baddest of the bad is excusable because they thought they had no other choice, which is always the excuse mages give for blood magic, being possessed, whatever, I think that taking a substance you didn't know about when you do all the time from your superiors, and had no real reason to question it is excusable, if naive. The red lyrium at the end of the day is to blame for the templars. That and a demon. Mages have themselves to blame.

 

Not saying kill them all, but I'm putting them on a short leash. When's the next time they'll do something crazy because they thought they didn't have a choice? I have no idea, and in a war I simply just can't take that chance. After the war is over, maybe it'll be a different story, though I vote for some form of circle always being in place for them, just perhaps with less restrictive rules during peacetime.