993 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

Show me these codex entries

 

Cole?  He says not enough good Templars stand up to the rotten ones.  Which is true enough.  But CotJ cleans house with the Templars, so we can rebuild them.

 

I ally with the Templars when I go that route.  There is no Silver Shield.  Just Templars rediscovering what it means to be Champions of the Just.

http://dragonage.wik...entry:_Templars

the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices

 

Also, what proof do you have that every red templar was bad? Doesn't that speak bad about the order in general if the only way it can be redeemed is through murdering their bad templars? Also, what's stopping more bad templars from rising up given they think they have a Maker-given duty to corral mages.

 

Also, allying with templars is one of the factors that causes the Silver Shield ending. Don't rebuild the seekers and see what happens then. That pretty much proves that the templars are still too mage-hating and fanatical to be trusted

[thesuperdarkone2]

You give the benefit of the doubt to people that sided with Slaver mages, but damn templars for not following what most thought to be exaggerations from a story telling Dwarf and listening to their commander.

 

That's the problem and why these discussions go on and on. Bottom line? They're both fuckups, but I find Templars to be the lesser of said **** ups. I admit yes the mages indeed thought they had little choice, but there is always another choice. They chose the bad one. I am a leader of a political/military group that is trying to bring order to a land that is in chaos. I'm not about to put all of that at risk by trusting people with terrible judgement and intellect.

 

Simple as that. You think that siding with the baddest of the bad is excusable because they thought they had no other choice, which is always the excuse mages give for blood magic, being possessed, whatever, I think that taking a substance you didn't know about when you do all the time from your superiors, and had no real reason to question it is excusable, if naive. The red lyrium at the end of the day is to blame for the templars. That and a demon. Mages have themselves to blame.

 

Not saying kill them all, but I'm putting them on a short leash. When's the next time they'll do something crazy because they thought they didn't have a choice? I have no idea, and in a war I simply just can't take that chance. After the war is over, maybe it'll be a different story, though I vote for some form of circle always being in place for them, just perhaps with less restrictive rules during peacetime.

You seem to forget that if Hawke sided with the templars, the Kirkwall templars take red lyrium and try to kill Hawke which is the reason why a templar-siding Hawke had to leave.

 

Also, the alternative at that point was their complete death given that the alliance only occurred a few days after the Conclave where most people apparently blamed the mages and the templars were preparing to attack again. The healer confirms that the templars have attacked Redcliffe before.

 

Also, Alexius kicking out Teagan pretty much forced the mages to stay in the alliance lest they be forced to fend for themselves with no protection which is exactly what happens when the Venatori are kicked out. So the options were refuse the alliance and be exiled then have to fend for themselves or stay with the alliance and be protected.

 

Of course, this could just be bad writing to make people consider siding with the templars after they essentially told you to go to hell at Val Royeaux, or do I need to remind people how Briala is totally willing to forgive Celene if you show her an amulet.

[Steelcan]

You seem to forget that if Hawke sided with the templars, the Kirkwall templars take red lyrium and try to kill Hawke which is the reason why a templar-siding Hawke had to leave.

 

Also, the alternative at that point was their complete death given that the alliance only occurred a few days after the Conclave where most people apparently blamed the mages and the templars were preparing to attack again. The healer confirms that the templars have attacked Redcliffe before.

 

Also, Alexius kicking out Teagan pretty much forced the mages to stay in the alliance lest they be forced to fend for themselves with no protection which is exactly what happens when the Venatori are kicked out. So the options were refuse the alliance and be exiled then have to fend for themselves or stay with the alliance and be protected.

 

Of course, this could just be bad writing to make people consider siding with the templars after they essentially told you to go to hell at Val Royeaux, or do I need to remind people how Briala is totally willing to forgive Celene if you show her an amulet.

Red lyrium templars, yeah they totally aren't the bad guys

 

the ones who refused to go back to Val Royeaux, there's no indication that the main group of the templars ever did so.

 

There's no doubt the mages were inbetween a rock and a hard place, but they picked the option that blatantly violated the faith Ferelden put in them and all but declared themselves enemies of White Thedas

 

You are supposed to be investigating the templars' odd behavior and trying to force their hand with an alliance offer, not roll out the carpet for them

[Colonelkillabee]

You seem to forget that if Hawke sided with the templars, the Kirkwall templars take red lyrium and try to kill Hawke which is the reason why a templar-siding Hawke had to leave.

 

Also, the alternative at that point was their complete death given that the alliance only occurred a few days after the Conclave where most people apparently blamed the mages and the templars were preparing to attack again. The healer confirms that the templars have attacked Redcliffe before.

 

Also, Alexius kicking out Teagan pretty much forced the mages to stay in the alliance lest they be forced to fend for themselves with no protection which is exactly what happens when the Venatori are kicked out. So the options were refuse the alliance and be exiled then have to fend for themselves or stay with the alliance and be protected.

 

Of course, this could just be bad writing to make people consider siding with the templars after they essentially told you to go to hell at Val Royeaux, or do I need to remind people how Briala is totally willing to forgive Celene if you show her an amulet.

It's no secret that the templars in kirkwall were douchebags, hence why I side against them no matter what in DA 2.

 

The Templars outside of Kirkwall however took red lyrium without anyone knowing what it did.

 

Besides, wasn't it said that Kirkwall was sitting on some kind of "hell gate" or something, basically effected by a large weakening in the veil? Not sure about that but at the very least, it was affected by Corypheus, so the grand majority of all that craziness on both sides can likely be put on him.

 

Anyway, it's no secret that Templars can be dicks. Honestly, I've never liked them. I still don't. They need to get laid and take a chill pill.

 

But even so, mages are still the bigger wild card in the series. Whether it's their fault or not, they're always involved in some craziness, leading to mass chaos and death. It's really unfortunate, it really is, but that's how Bioware wrote it. So, I choose to control them during a military conflict, rather than have to worry if my allies will choose to go nuclear or do something stupidly suicidal that could make things worse or not.

[thesuperdarkone2]

It's no secret that the templars in kirkwall were douchebags, hence why I side against them no matter what in DA 2.

 

The Templars outside of Kirkwall however took red lyrium without anyone knowing what it did.

 

Besides, wasn't it said that Kirkwall was sitting on some kind of "hell gate" or something, basically effected by a large weakening in the veil? Not sure about that but at the very least, it was affected by Corypheus, so the grand majority of all that craziness on both sides can likely be put on him.

 

Anyway, it's no secret that Templars can be dicks. Honestly, I've never liked them. I still don't. They need to get laid and take a chill pill.

 

But even so, mages are still the bigger wild card in the series. Whether it's their fault or not, they're always involved in some craziness, leading to mass chaos and death. It's really unfortunate, it really is, but that's how Bioware wrote it. So, I choose to control them during a military conflict, rather than have to worry if my allies will choose to go nuclear or do something stupidly suicidal that could make things worse or not.

Fair enough. That's also part of the reason why I conscript the templars most of the time whenever I do a templar run as what happened at Therinfal showed my characters that the templars could be easily corrupted, plus sometimes my character only grudgingly goes to the templars, so conscripting them lets me show the templars that they can't do whatever they want and that if they want to help, they have to do it on our terms.

 

Then they can't hurt people and have to obey me.

[Qun00]

Fiona's rebellion had no obligation to accept a collective guilt by association and continue to suffer indignities in silence for a longer period of time just because of some loud apostate somewhere in the world. Vivienne always mentions the casualties but always omits the part where the Circle was targeted for extermination for the actions of an outsider.

When you're planning something like a revolution, you need to be smart about it.

Anyone who yells "But we're innocent! We had nothing to do with that!" is being guided by emotion rather than reason. Sometimes the truth makes no difference and the current circumstances presented before you are all that matters.

[Colonelkillabee]

Fair enough. That's also part of the reason why I conscript the templars most of the time whenever I do a templar run as what happened at Therinfal showed my characters that the templars could be easily corrupted, plus sometimes my character only grudgingly goes to the templars, so conscripting them lets me show the templars that they can't do whatever they want and that if they want to help, they have to do it on our terms.

 

Then they can't hurt people and have to obey me.

Won't lie, I'd honestly rather conscript the lot of them if it were me personally, mage or templar. However with my rp being someone that truly believes he's the Herald, it made more sense for him to come and redeem them instead. And if I had to ally with one and conscript the other, it'd be templars I allied with. I just don't buy that the whole organization is rotten. Their biggest issue is their leadership. They were better when they had someone else to follow, be that the chantry or now, the Inquisition.

[MisterJB]

Also, allying with templars is one of the factors that causes the Silver Shield ending. Don't rebuild the seekers and see what happens then. That pretty much proves that the templars are still too mage-hating and fanatical to be trusted

 

Your obsession with this ending is bordering the erotic.

 

Oh, Templars can't accept a mage as Divine as this goes against a thousand of years of traditions and the core beliefs of their Order and culture of their respective nations.

 

 

 

That is almost as ghastly as the Fereldens not accepting a mage a mage/elf/dwarf as Queen/Prince Consort or the Tevinters not accepting a mundane as Archon or Divine or any position of importance really.
 

[Iakus]

http://dragonage.wik...entry:_Templars

the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices

 

Also, what proof do you have that every red templar was bad? Doesn't that speak bad about the order in general if the only way it can be redeemed is through murdering their bad templars? Also, what's stopping more bad templars from rising up given they think they have a Maker-given duty to corral mages.

 

Also, allying with templars is one of the factors that causes the Silver Shield ending. Don't rebuild the seekers and see what happens then. That pretty much proves that the templars are still too mage-hating and fanatical to be trusted

Next time try quoting the entire statement:

 

Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices.

 

All the epilogue says is the Templars form a new knightly order" called the Silver Shield.  Nothing about them being particularly mage-hating.

 

It can be deeply troubling to have to kill a mage you liked and even considered a friend if they end up turning into an abomination.  Or, Maker forbid a child.   But it's something that needs to be done, for everyone's safety.  And Templars need to be able to do that, if necessary.  

 

Red Templars are all insane monsters.  They didn't all start out that day, but they were poisoned by blighted lyrium and under Corypheus' control.  Whatever they once were is gone now.  

 

THe same thing that's stopping mages from going:  You know what?  Tevinter has the right idea.  Namely, nothing.

 

Aside from the fact that they won't work for a mage Divine, nothing about the Silver Shield is particularly anti-mage.  But then, it's simply called a "knightly order"

[Xilizhra]

Just talk to the mage in the tavern of redcliffe after you speak with the tevinter.

 

Linnea springs immediately to mind

She never mentions ruling over mundanes.

[Master Warder Z_]

Next time try quoting the entire statement:

 

Like I did?

 

[Xilizhra]

Red Templars are all insane monsters.  They didn't all start out that day, but they were poisoned by blighted lyrium and under Corypheus' control.  Whatever they once were is gone now. 

This is incorrect. The red templars, many of them, maintain human mindsets. Aside from the one who refused to be healed by Imshael because Imshael's price was too morally appalling, Samson's short story shows red templars who may sometimes have red lyrium-induced fits of madness, but who are overall still quite human.

[Colonelkillabee]

She never mentions ruling over mundanes.

She says in tevinter mages are free and rule, as a good point.

[Xilizhra]

She says in tevinter mages are free and rule, as a good point.

She says that mages police themselves as the good point. "Ruled by mages" is what she says is the Chantry's reason for hating them, but she doesn't mention it as a positive.

[Steelcan]

This is incorrect. The red templars, many of them, maintain human mindsets. Aside from the one who refused to be healed by Imshael because Imshael's price was too morally appalling, Samson's short story shows red templars who may sometimes have red lyrium-induced fits of madness, but who are overall still quite human.

it could still very well be taking a toll on their mind outside of these fits, normal lyrium does eventually

[Xilizhra]

it could still very well be taking a toll on their mind outside of these fits, normal lyrium does eventually

Very possible, but it's blatantly incorrect to say that the red templars are all insane monsters.

[Steelcan]

Very possible, but it's blatantly incorrect to say that the red templars are all insane monsters.

I'm willing to bet its a lot more corrosive ont heir mental health and stability than regular lyrium and likely works much faster.

 

They may have moments of lucidity and even seem "normal" overall, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't accompanied by other massive changes that non-addicted people would be able to pick up on easily

[Xilizhra]

I'm willing to bet its a lot more corrosive ont heir mental health and stability than regular lyrium and likely works much faster.

 

They may have moments of lucidity and even seem "normal" overall, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't accompanied by other massive changes that non-addicted people would be able to pick up on easily

Paper and Steel seems to indicate that lucidity is more common than madness, though I'm sure some might be overtaken by it completely. Then again, those might stop being useful for the army.

[Colonelkillabee]

She says that mages police themselves as the good point. "Ruled by mages" is what she says is the Chantry's reason for hating them, but she doesn't mention it as a positive.

Blood magic was what she said their reason for hating them was, and she said that was just a rumor they used as a scare tactic. She certainly did not state mages being in charge was a bad thing.

[MisterJB]

She never mentions ruling over mundanes.

She defends the rulership of mages because, in her words, it hasn't caused the world to end; the slavery and human sacrifice weren't worth mentioning in her eyes and of course, there are the Bligths; and even the control of non-mage's minds through blood magic.

[Boost32]

I'm having a deja-vu or I went back in time. Its the same discussion and the same people of the good old times.

[TheChosenOne]

Ah yes.... The good old Mage v Templar argument..... Even if they're both fucked up and crazy, you must pick a side!!    

[sniper_arrow]

I'm having a deja-vu or I went back in time. Its the same discussion and the same people of the good old times.

 

Honestly, it's kind of fun watching the mage supporters getting off their high horse.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Honestly, it's kind of fun watching the mage supporters getting off their high horse.

Divine Leliana.

Guess knowing the truth that Mage freedom didn't backfire hurts

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm having a deja-vu or I went back in time. Its the same discussion and the same people of the good old times.

Blegh.

All of that for a more or less return to status quo.

._.

Seems pretty pointless in hindsight.