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[MisterJB]

Silliness. The mages initiated no violence; that was the doing of the templars. Additionally, we've never seen mages turn on society in general to a degree greater than that of the templars.

Violence is not, by itself, an act of war. After all, there have been many fights between mages and Templars over the centuries and it was never considered a war.However, the declaration was independence was not simply a declaration of war against Templars. Rather, it was a rebellion against the mechanisms the dutifully appointed rulers of society endorsed and employed to deal with mages, with full knowledge that their breach of social conduct was not approved by said rulers and would result in the lawful forces of society seeking to stop them. By reacting to this through violence, the mages thus declared war.

 

That the Templars chose to separate themselves from the chain of command does not not change any of the above.

[Xilizhra]

Violence is not, by itself, an act of war. After all, there have been many fights between mages and Templars over the centuries and it was never considered a war.However, the declaration was independence was not simply a declaration of war against Templars. Rather, it was a rebellion against the mechanisms the dutifully appointed rulers of society endorsed and employed to deal with mages, with full knowledge that their breach of social conduct was not approved by said rulers and would result in the lawful forces of society seeking to stop them. By reacting to this through violence, the mages thus declared war.

 

That the Templars chose to separate themselves from the chain of command does not not change any of the above.

It was actually not a declaration of war against anyone, nor, in fact, did any of said rulers do anything about it except Ferelden on the mage side (not that monarchs have any legitimacy anyway, but that's a different topic). The only ones who attacked them were those who were renegades just as much as they.

[MisterJB]

It was actually not a declaration of war against anyone, nor, in fact, did any of said rulers do anything about it except Ferelden on the mage side (not that monarchs have any legitimacy anyway, but that's a different topic). The only ones who attacked them were those who were renegades just as much as they.

Not only is it untrue that the governments did not do anything given  the fact that we know rebel mages were barred from every city except for Redcliff and even that was revoken through force of arms eventually and both Celene and Gaspard had their plans regarding the rebellion before their own civil war, you are avoiding the question.

Did or did not the mages sought to reshape the rules and mechanisms endorsed and employed by the dutifully appointed rulers of society with the full knowledge that, in order to do so, they would come into conflict with the lawful agents of authority who would seek to preserve the social order?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Then you agree that it's contact between humans and elves that leads to suffering. Ergo, separation is part of the solution and the purpose behind the alienages is to separate both groups. Therefore, the alienages are good.

Except the alienages give the perfect place for people to kill another group of people without any fear of punishment. Where else can you rape and kill people with nobody caring.

 

Face it, things like alienages are the reason elves are treated like garbage. By your logic, the circles shouldn't exist as they give a location where templars can beat, rape, and kill mages without punishment just like in the alienages.

 

Heck, you might as well as defended jim crow laws and black segregation.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Not only is it untrue that the governments did not do anything given  the fact that we know rebel mages were barred from every city except for Redcliff and even that was revoken through force of arms eventually and both Celene and Gaspard had their plans regarding the rebellion before their own civil war, you are avoiding the question.

Did or did not the mages sought to reshape the rules and mechanisms endorsed and employed by the dutifully appointed rulers of society with the full knowledge that, in order to do so, they would come into conflict with the lawful agents of authority who would seek to preserve the social order?

You mean the same policies which you yourself admitted you would never put your mage child and wife in? Hypocrite.

 

Also, this is the same policy that allows elven kids to be killed and their murderer to get away with it since nobody will punish an elf-killer. This is also the same policy that lets elves get raped by nobles or killed as essentially a college rite of passage.

 

 

By your logic, slavery, apartheid, and jim crow laws should be obeyed merely because they're the law. Guess what, being legal doesn't make it right.

[Xilizhra]

Not only is it untrue that the governments did not do anything given  the fact that we know rebel mages were barred from every city except for Redcliff and even that was revoken through force of arms eventually and both Celene and Gaspard had their plans regarding the rebellion before their own civil war, you are avoiding the question.

Did or did not the mages sought to reshape the rules and mechanisms endorsed and employed by the dutifully appointed rulers of society with the full knowledge that, in order to do so, they would come into conflict with the lawful agents of authority who would seek to preserve the social order?

I would say no, as the templars are no longer lawful.

[MisterJB]

I would say no, as the templars are no longer lawful.

 

They were when the rebellion was declared. And the rest remains true.
 

[Xilizhra]

They were when the rebellion was declared. And the rest remains true.
 

Secession, from the Chantry. And the conflict to come was not necessarily an armed one.

[MisterJB]

Except the alienages give the perfect place for people to kill another group of people without any fear of punishment. Where else can you rape and kill people with nobody caring.

 

Face it, things like alienages are the reason elves are treated like garbage. By your logic, the circles shouldn't exist as they give a location where templars can beat, rape, and kill mages without punishment just like in the alienages.

You think that the best place for elves to be victimized in the one place where they are the majority and can defend each other?

It's not a matter of location, it's a matter of society at large not caring in the sligthest about elves.

 

If a noble with a column of armed and armored men is the one who wants to cause problems, then you're fucked regardless of who or where you are.

 

By your logic, slavery, apartheid, and jim crow laws should be obeyed merely because they're the law. Guess what, being legal doesn't make it right.

"Damn it, I have absolutely no idea how I am going to refute all of his arguments.

I know, I will just use charged words that no one can agree with on a public forum."

 

[MisterJB]

Secession, from the Chantry. And the conflict to come was not necessarily an armed one.

And the Chantry enjoys the support and sanction of society at large regarding the solutions it employs.

Except Fiona's speech before the vote specifically mentioned how it was going to lead to war.

[In Exile]

Violence is not, by itself, an act of war. After all, there have been many fights between mages and Templars over the centuries and it was never considered a war.However, the declaration was independence was not simply a declaration of war against Templars. Rather, it was a rebellion against the mechanisms the dutifully appointed rulers of society endorsed and employed to deal with mages, with full knowledge that their breach of social conduct was not approved by said rulers and would result in the lawful forces of society seeking to stop them. By reacting to this through violence, the mages thus declared war.

 

That the Templars chose to separate themselves from the chain of command does not not change any of the above.

 

That's an absurd distinction. If, say, the US Army decides to "separate itself from the chain of command", we'd call it treason and rebellion. 

[In Exile]

And the Chantry enjoys the support and sanction of society at large regarding the solutions it employs.

Except Fiona's speech before the vote specifically mentioned how it was going to lead to war.

 

Except from the templars and seekers, when it decided to maybe change the system.

[In Exile]

Mages started the war ._.

Well Fiona specifically, but mages in general.

 

Sure? I don't quite see how that's related to what I said. I don't think the templars, as an institution, can be rehabilitation based on their complicity in, among other things, actual genocide. We're talking about a group of soldiers who signed up for, among other things, genocide. An organization that was wholly incapable of, among other things, establishing even the remotest form of due process of the prosecution of crimes and abuses. 

[Xilizhra]

You think that the best place for elves to be victimized in the one place where they are the majority and can defend each other?

It's not a matter of location, it's a matter of society at large not caring in the sligthest about elves.

 

If a noble with a column of armed and armored men is the one who wants to cause problems, then you're fucked regardless of who or where you are.

Then the solution is to bring elves to equality, and the Chantry may be in the best position to help that.

 

 

And the Chantry enjoys the support and sanction of society at large regarding the solutions it employs.

Except Fiona's speech before the vote specifically mentioned how it was going to lead to war.

Leading to war and declaring war are two incredibly different things, and failing to realize that leads to victim-blaming.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Sure? I don't quite see how that's related to what I said. I don't think the templars, as an institution, can be rehabilitation based on their complicity in, among other things, actual genocide. We're talking about a group of soldiers who signed up for, among other things, genocide. An organization that was wholly incapable of, among other things, establishing even the remotest form of due process of the prosecution of crimes and abuses. 

This.

 

Not to mention how the organization that was supposed to watch out for corruption wound up becoming corrupt itself by ignoring Kirkwall and outright leading the templars against the mages. Don't forget how corruption in the templars can result in things like the annulment described in the magebane shield which says an entire circle of innocent mages was killed because the knight-commander there preferred killing mages to punishing a knight-captain who killed a HUNDRED mages.

 

 

Also, the war technically started with Meredith who was an insane bigot who wanted to kill an entire circle of innocent mages. Afterwards, the TEMPLARS decided to punish all circles by turning them into actual prisons. Do you think it's fair to punish the mages for a blatant example of the templars screwing up?

 

Also, the fact that even after the templars decided to kill all mages, the vote to rebel was still 50/50 kind of shows that if the original vote hadn't been interrupted, it likely would have failed as the split only occurred as the other fraternities finally had enough of the templars punishing them. If the original vote wasn't interrupted, it wouldn't have passed as the mages had no reason to want to rebel. So Lambert pretty much did everything wrong which started the revolt in the first place.

 

 

Seriously, what's up with always blaming the mages whenever the templars screw up?

[MisterJB]

Then the solution is to bring elves to equality, and the Chantry may be in the best position to help that.

And if we could create an unending source of energy, many problems would also be fixed.

Doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

 

Leading to war and declaring war are two incredibly different things, and failing to realize that leads to victim-blaming.

And when you declare your intentions to change the current society into something you would find more pleasing through deadly and large scale confrontations with the lawfully appointed agents of authority, you are declaring war.

Mages are not the victims here. Oh, I won't claim they didn't have valid grievances but they were the ones who decided to escalate it into a war with all the consequences that come from it. They could have easily returned to the Circles.

[Xilizhra]

 

And if we could create an unending source of energy, many problems would also be fixed.

Doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

It certainly won't happen if nobody tries. Leliana does.

 

 

And when you declare your intentions to change the current society into something you would find more pleasing through deadly and large scale confrontations with the lawfully appointed agents of authority, you are declaring war.

Mages are not the victims here. Oh, I won't claim they didn't have valid grievances but they were the ones who decided to escalate it into a war with all the consequences that come from it. They could have easily returned to the Circles.

I disagree. You're declaring war when you launch attacks or just say that you're going to. Political secession isn't the same thing.

[thesuperdarkone2]

 

And if we could create an unending source of energy, many problems would also be fixed.

Doesn't mean it's likely to happen.

 

 

 

And when you declare your intentions to change the current society into something you would find more pleasing through deadly and large scale confrontations with the lawfully appointed agents of authority, you are declaring war.

Mages are not the victims here. Oh, I won't claim they didn't have valid grievances but they were the ones who decided to escalate it into a war with all the consequences that come from it. They could have easily returned to the Circles.

 

And do you think the templars would just magically be nice and do absolutely nothing to the mages assuming they return?

 

You do realize that if they returned to the circles, at best any rights they would have had would be gone and the circles would become literal prisons. At worst, they'd all be killed or made tranquil. Rhys outright says this reason for voting for rebellion since it's too late to go back to the circles.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sure? I don't quite see how that's related to what I said

 

You said the Templars declared war.

 

A inaccuracy.

 

The Mages kicked off the fighting, broke out of the circle, prevented any future peace measures and prompted the war.

 

So its quite directly tied to what you said.

[Iakus]

What is it with Fiona "starting" the war? I thought it was Lambert when he violated the conclave sanctioned by the Divine his own boss.

The conclave was sanctioned specifically to address the newfound cure for Tranquility.  NOT to call on a vote for mage independence.

 

Fiona hijacked the Conclave for her own agenda at the worst possible time.

[Master Warder Z_]

The conclave was sanctioned specifically to address the newfound cure for Tranquility.  NOT to call on a vote for mage independence.

 

Fiona hijacked the Conclave for her own agenda at the worst possible time.

 

Pretty much.

 

 

Relevant.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The conclave was sanctioned specifically to address the newfound cure for Tranquility.  NOT to call on a vote for mage independence.

 

Fiona hijacked the Conclave for her own agenda at the worst possible time.

 

 

 

 

Also, the fact that even after the templars decided to kill all mages, the vote to rebel was still 50/50 kind of shows that if the original vote hadn't been interrupted, it likely would have failed as the split only occurred as the other fraternities finally had enough of the templars punishing them. If the original vote wasn't interrupted, it wouldn't have passed as the mages had no reason to want to rebel. So Lambert pretty much did everything wrong which started the revolt in the first place.

 

 

Seriously, what's up with always blaming the mages whenever the templars screw up?

[Steelcan]

I certainly won't exonerate Lambert or condone his actions. Its a good thing the Templar leadership has been gutted and replaced.

The Mage's vote for secession was indeed an implicit act of War. There was no dramatic follow up such as the attack on Ft. Sumter, but they knew that they were going to fight for it. There was never going to be a peaceful transition, and certainly not after Fiona goaded Lambert into attacking.

[In Exile]

You said the Templars declared war.

 

A inaccuracy.

 

The Mages kicked off the fighting, broke out of the circle, prevented any future peace measures and prompted the war.

 

So its quite directly tied to what you said.

 

No, I said that they started this whole war. That's not the same as declaring war. And they did. The timeline as I understand it (I haven't read Asunder, so all I have is the wiki) is as follows:

 

 

1. The College of Enchanters is disbanded.  

2. Knight Commander Eron is removed from power by Lord Seeker Lambert. 

3. Lord Seeker Lambert effectively orders Evangeline to destroy the knowledge of the potential cure to the Rite of Tranquility.

4. Divine Justinia is interested in the Tranquility cure; Lambert opposes it on principle. 

5. Wynne leaks knowledge of the Tranquility cure; Divine Justinia wishes for a meeting of the College of Enchanters as a Conclave.

6. Lord Seeker Lambert agrees to the meeting on three conditions: (i) All mages but First Enchanters are disenfranchised; (ii) Rhys et al are imprisoned; and (iii) Pharamond is made tranquil again.

7. Divine Justinia, head of of the Chantry, with the consent of Lord Seeker Lambert, lawfully convenes a Conclave of the College of Enchanters. To the extent that anything in Thedas or done by the Chantry can have some kind of legitimacy, the Conclave is legitimate. 

8. Lord Seeker Lambert conspires, actively, to suppress knowledge of the cure for the Rite of Tranquility and orders Evangeline to take steps to suppress it. 

9. Fionna tables a vote: secession of the Circles of Magi from the Chantry. The motion may well be illegitimate and ineffective. No vote is held, because:

10. Lord Seeker Lambert, with an army at his behest, disrupts the lawfully convened Conclave, and declares their actions as treason. He seeks to arrest Rhys, the mages refuse, and there is violence. 

 

The actual fight that follows is irrelevant. The fact that Lambert had reason to suspect Rhys for murder (the murder weapon being found in his room) is irrelevant. There is no connection, relationship, or basis, to disrupt the Conclave. Lord Seeker Lambert explains directly to Evangeline his motivations: to prevent the mages from pushing for independence, or even for greater freedom, because he believes it will lead to Tevinter.

 

Now let's look at what I said:

 

[The templars...] started this whole war over the idea that [the Templars] might not get to be the absolute determinants of life or death over the mages...

 

Every step that Lambert takes - as much and as far as possible as his authority allows - is to fight and suppress and imprison the mages. That's the basis for his declaration of independence, as well. And it isn't Lambert alone - other templars massacre, for example, Dairsmuird. 

[In Exile]

I certainly won't exonerate Lambert or condone his actions. Its a good thing the Templar leadership has been gutted and replaced.

The Mage's vote for secession was indeed an implicit act of War. There was no dramatic follow up such as the attack on Ft. Sumter, but they knew that they were going to fight for it. There was never going to be a peaceful transition, and certainly not after Fiona goaded Lambert into attacking.

 

The analogy doesn't work, because the Lincoln didn't send troops to disrupt a vote by a putative Confederate state. The US example is actually a very bad one, because the it's the reverse of what we see. There's actual aggression on the part of the templars. Beyond that, the North doesn't recognize the legitimacy of the meeting where the vote is held. The Chantry - and Lambert personally - both recognize the lawful validity of the Conclave. That's why it even happens in the first place. It's not about acts of war - that concept is gibberish because we're talking about a paramilitary organization of the Chantry and a club meeting. Neither of them can declare war in any meaningful sense, which is why I don't talk about "acts" of war, or "declarations" of war, but who arguably started this whole mess. 

 

And in my view, the templars (and Chantry) did. But really, Lord Seeker Lambert and the templars, since Divine Justinia pushed for a political solution, and the mages were willing to consider it.