993 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

@Xilizhra:  She'll be assassinated promptly (and Cassandra and Leliana with her) if she pushed too hard against the will of the people. 

 

You can't just do whatever you want... you have to take into account the people who gave you that power.  

 

And... where do you think Justinia's money comes from?  It has to be tithing... which is from the people.  

 

So they're basically paying ALL the mages expenses... why would the people want to pay for welfare mages?  Why should they?  

 

Let them farm and make thier own clothes and build their own houses... what?  Doesn't leave time to study magic?  Too damn bad you ungrateful little ******.

 

Divine Vivienne can support them because the will of the people wants them back in the towers... where they can study magic and leave hard working people alone to make mage clothes... and harvest mage food.

 

Do radical pro-mages ever stop to think about how mages get to sit around all day in their "prisons" reading books?  The people that "hate" them so much supply them with everything they need to live. 

 

I would love to see "free mages" miserable having to do backbreaking physical labor... 

Have you actually looked anywhere with regards to lore? Mages do have things like potion stores and the wonders of thedas shops. People will always have a need for potions and enchantments, plus healing. I'd trust magic healing and potions compared to what the average secular medicine is like if the quack in Skyhold is any indication.

 

Also, heard the expression "gilded cage"? Just because something is nice doesn't mean it isn't a prison. What about if you want to have a family? Nope, can't have that. Also, it's funny because Dorian uses the same argument you're making to defend SLAVERY.

 

 

Also, nobody complains about mages in a Divine Leliana playthrough, and even Vivienne admits the College is a good place for mages to be taught.

 

Did you forget how if Leliana is Divine, she was UNANIMOUSLY elected since the vote for Divine requires unanimous support? Or the fact that Vivienne straight up tells you that people view your actions and opinions as those of the Maker. Hence, if you are pro-mage, people think the Maker is pro-mage and thus will be nicer to mages. 

[Reznore57]

Mages aren't going to be poor , well some of them are ...those who sucks at magic.

But there's the whole question of weak mages and what Fiona and co would do with them anyway , another can of worms.

Anyway it's going to be open market for mages , and there's a danger to that.

The Chantry made sure to regulate the use of magic for EVERYONE.Not just for mages themselves , nobles with tons of coins couldn't buy an army of mages to go burn the fields of a rival .

If mages are free , they could sell their magic freely .Of course blood magic and stuff would still be forbidden but open market means competition , competitions means more temptation to cheat.

Some countries are going to get tons of mages , and this won't be the Anderfels ...Hey who knows Antiva might be the next human empire to rise , they have no solid army but the prince merchant over there are rolling in gold.

 

This won't end well.

[Medhia_Nox]

Have you actually looked anywhere with regards to lore? Mages do have things like potion stores and the wonders of thedas shops. People will always have a need for potions and enchantments, plus healing. I'd trust magic healing and potions compared to what the average secular medicine is like if the quack in Skyhold is any indication.

 

Also, heard the expression "gilded cage"? Just because something is nice doesn't mean it isn't a prison. What about if you want to have a family? Nope, can't have that. Also, it's funny because Dorian uses the same argument you're making to defend SLAVERY.

 

 

Also, nobody complains about mages in a Divine Leliana playthrough, and even Vivienne admits the College is a good place for mages to be taught.

 

Did you forget how if Leliana is Divine, she was UNANIMOUSLY elected since the vote for Divine requires unanimous support? Or the fact that Vivienne straight up tells you that people view your actions and opinions as those of the Maker. Hence, if you are pro-mage, people think the Maker is pro-mage and thus will be nicer to mages. 

 

You think mages make those items? 

Like runes... it's the Tranquil that make those items.  It requires working with lyrium.  

 

As for potions.. anyone can make those... not just mages.

[thesuperdarkone2]

You think mages make those items? 

Like runes... it's the Tranquil that make those items.  It requires working with lyrium.  

Then mind explaining how a regular mage in Awakening was able to enchant items?

[Medhia_Nox]

Then mind explaining how a regular mage in Awakening was able to enchant items?

Well.... likely more broken lore... like the way mages can't teleport until DA2 where they use "illusion magic".

 

What mage in Awakening enchants items?  

[Hellion Rex]

Well.... likely more broken lore... like the way mages can't teleport until DA2 where they use "illusion magic".

What mage in Awakening enchants items?

The woman in Vigil's Keep in the Great Hall, who isn't Tranquil. I think she was an Ambassador?

[MisterJB]

You know, as awful as it is, there was at least one decent line in "Batman vs Superman".

 

"If you build a silver bullet, even if you never use it, you never have to depend upon the kindness of monsters."

[Xilizhra]

You think mages make those items? 

Like runes... it's the Tranquil that make those items.  It requires working with lyrium.  

 

As for potions.. anyone can make those... not just mages.

Just in case you missed my response to your previous statement:

 

So, again, I say they would presumably do it the same way that they manage the College in the Inquisition timeline, because the College exists separately from the Circle even with Vivienne as Divine.

[MisterJB]

Mages aren't going to be poor , well some of them are ...those who sucks at magic.

But there's the whole question of weak mages and what Fiona and co would do with them anyway , another can of worms.

Anyway it's going to be open market for mages , and there's a danger to that.

The Chantry made sure to regulate the use of magic for EVERYONE.Not just for mages themselves , nobles with tons of coins couldn't buy an army of mages to go burn the fields of a rival .

If mages are free , they could sell their magic freely .Of course blood magic and stuff would still be forbidden but open market means competition , competitions means more temptation to cheat.

Some countries are going to get tons of mages , and this won't be the Anderfels ...Hey who knows Antiva might be the next human empire to rise , they have no solid army but the prince merchant over there are rolling in gold.

 

This won't end well.

 

I am not going to bother copying the whole thing here but there is a codex in World of Thedas Volume 2 that states that Mage Circles can be very wealthy.

This comes not only from the selling of enchanted items but also decorational items for noble houses. Tapestries, stained glass, etc.

 

Enterprising mages are unlikely to starve which is part of the problem. Picture the most wealthy people on the planet are mages, controlling government's economy.

Which brings us to one of the reasons pro-Templars oppose mage freedom so fervently. What exactly is going to stop these super powered individuals from just taking over if they are free to do so?
 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  As in... the secular College in Val Royeau?  The one likely supported by the government?

Then we're back to the people's taxes supporting mages. That makes them public servants. 

 

And why would the individual nations of the south pay for secular mage Circles... without having a say on how they're run.

 

@Hellion Rex:  The mage shop in Denerim is run by a Tranquil.. .makes sense... all those lyrium infused items would wreak havoc on a mage after a while. 

 

I'll have to look up how DA tries to explain making magical items if it doesn't involve lyrium... and if it does, then they pissed on their lore. 

[MisterJB]

 

Did you forget how if Leliana is Divine, she was UNANIMOUSLY elected since the vote for Divine requires unanimous support? Or the fact that Vivienne straight up tells you that people view your actions and opinions as those of the Maker. Hence, if you are pro-mage, people think the Maker is pro-mage and thus will be nicer to mages. 

You know, public opinion is not controlled by a switch you can just turn on and off. Changing mentalities is a slow, gradual process spanning generations. We don't go from mages being lynched on sight to "oh my Maker, their civil rights" in the span of a couple of years just because a beloved public figure wants it to.

Sure, there may be some political good will for a time but remember the City Elf endings in DAO? Those were more realistic.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  As in... the secular College in Val Royeau?  The one likely supported by the government?

Then we're back to the people's taxes supporting mages. That makes them public servants. 

 

And why would the individual nations of the south pay for secular mage Circles... without having a say on how they're run.

Citation on it being supported by the government?

 

 

You know, public opinion is not controlled by a switch you can just turn on and off. Changing mentalities is a slow, gradual process spanning generations. We don't go from mages being lynched on sight to "oh my Maker, their civil rights" in the span of a couple of years just because a beloved public figure wants it to.

Sure, there may be some political good will for a time but remember the City Elf endings in DAO? Those were more realistic.

Ah, yes, the Hero of Ferelden becomes bann, and then some humans get pissy about other city elves enjoying it and try rioting? It happens, but it's not crippling.

[Medhia_Nox]

You know, public opinion is not controlled by a switch you can just turn on and off. Changing mentalities is a slow, gradual process spanning generations. We don't go from mages being lynched on sight to "oh my Maker, their civil rights" in the span of a couple of years just because a beloved public figure wants it to.

Sure, there may be some political good will for a time but remember the City Elf endings in DAO? Those were more realistic.

 

The American Civil War was 150 years ago... the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 - and, well... it's not like we still don't have issues in the States.  

 

As you said, minds don't just "flip".

 

If the Pope said tomorrow:  Gays are loved by God.   You would have a LOT of priests, cardinals, bishops and laypeople losing their cool... not simply saying: "Okay, I have been reprogrammed." 

[thesuperdarkone2]

You know, public opinion is not controlled by a switch you can just turn on and off. Changing mentalities is a slow, gradual process spanning generations. We don't go from mages being lynched on sight to "oh my Maker, their civil rights" in the span of a couple of years just because a beloved public figure wants it to.

Sure, there may be some political good will for a time but remember the City Elf endings in DAO? Those were more realistic.

Apparently that didn't stop the grand clerics from unanimously supporting an openly pro-mage and pro-non human candidate. 

[Shechinah]

You know, public opinion is not controlled by a switch you can just turn on and off. Changing mentalities is a slow, gradual process spanning generations. We don't go from mages being lynched on sight to "oh my Maker, their civil rights" in the span of a couple of years just because a beloved public figure wants it to.

Sure, there may be some political good will for a time but remember the City Elf endings in DAO? Those were more realistic.

 

Additionally, while the mages were seen with more sympathy than how they'd been in the past, that sympathy likely took a bad hit before and during the time of the Inquisition because a part of the damage and deaths were caused by mages.

 

Not to mention Corypheus given who he is and what he has done and did do. 
 

[Medhia_Nox]

"Someone" has to support it Xil... 

 

Do you think Universities in the real world aren't giant businesses owned by someone?  

 

So... someone is going to be telling those Circle mages what to do... especially if they take on a business model (very interesting actually).  It will be harsh indeed if the Lucrosians came out on top.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The American Civil War was 150 years ago... the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 - and, well... it's not like we still don't have issues in the States.  

 

If anything, what you're saying proves my point about not waiting for change. Slavery was forced to end through the civil war. The Civil Rights FORCED people to give blacks equal rights. Gay marriage was FORCED.

 

 

You're just proving my point that equality doesn't come about by just waiting for it.

[Xilizhra]

The American Civil War was 150 years ago... the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 - and, well... it's not like we still don't have issues in the States.  

 

As you said, minds don't just "flip".

 

If the Pope said tomorrow:  Gays are loved by God.   You would have a LOT of priests, cardinals, bishops and laypeople losing their cool... not simply saying: "Okay, I have been reprogrammed." 

Actually, things would have been accomplished after the Civil War much sooner if the Republican Party hadn't given up on protecting black people's civil rights. Actual progress was being made for quite a while during Reconstruction, but political steam ran out.

 

 

"Someone" has to support it Xil... 

 

Do you think Universities in the real world aren't giant businesses owned by someone?  

 

So... someone is going to be telling those Circle mages what to do... especially if they take on a business model (very interesting actually).  It will be harsh indeed if the Lucrosians came out on top.

So you disagree with JB, I take it?

[Medhia_Nox]

Apparently that didn't stop the grand clerics from unanimously supporting an openly pro-mage and pro-non human candidate. 

 

That's called terrible writing and gamer pandering.  

 

Things just don't happen like that in the real world.  

 

Even Jesus took a little while to catch on.  

 

As for you believing I've proved your point... you're a bit delusional.  Nothing changed from the war... the bill or... an African American president.  They changed in small steps... at grass roots levels. 

[Xilizhra]

That's called terrible writing and gamer pandering.  

 

Things just don't happen like that in the real world.  

 

Even Jesus took a little while to catch on.  

I'd call it "The Inquisition likes her, she has experience, and we don't want the Chantry to crumble while we dither about choosing a candidate."

[thesuperdarkone2]

Additionally, while the mages were seen with more sympathy than how they'd been in the past, that sympathy likely took a bad hit before and during the time of the Inquisition because a part of the damage and deaths were caused by mages.

 

Not to mention Corypheus given who he is and what he has done and did do. 
 

Of course, if you side with the mages, then the mages are seen supporting the Herald of Andraste in restoring order and saving the world against evil templars and a darkspawn magister. If you're pro-mage, then people also start thinking that the Maker hated their treatment of mages and that the Maker supports mage rights.

[Medhia_Nox]

I'd call it "The Inquisition likes her, she has experience, and we don't want the Chantry to crumble while we dither about choosing a candidate."

 

Yes, those are good political motivations that have NOTHING to do with the unanimous vote actually changing minds.

 

As for Mister JB... what about what he says do I disagree with exactly? 

[MisterJB]

Apparently that didn't stop the grand clerics from unanimously supporting an openly pro-mage and pro-non human candidate. 

 

So? If there is anything people all over the world are accostumed to, is the elites not representing their viewpoints.

The fact that Alistair can be crowned due to both his blood and the backing of the Warden and Eamon does not change the fact that, regardless of his personal opinion and feelings, Fereldens do not accept his pro-mage or pro-non human policies.

He will not marry a mage or non-human Warden because the people would revolt and any attempts to legitimize the Alienage, if not backed by the Hero of Ferelden in person, end with riots and lynching.
 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Yes, those are good political motivations that have NOTHING to do with the unanimous vote actually changing minds.

 

As for Mister JB... what about what he says do I disagree with exactly? 

You seem to forget that people legitimately believe that the Inquisitor's actions and opinions are the Maker's will. How do you think people in Medieval times would react to the opinions of someone who practically everyone agreed was essentially Jesus incarnate and the actual voice of God?

 

 

Seems you don't understand the kind of impact that can have, especially on people desperate for any sign that the Maker is with them.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, those are good political motivations that have NOTHING to do with the unanimous vote actually changing minds.

 

As for Mister JB... what about what he says do I disagree with exactly? 

This:

 

I am not going to bother copying the whole thing here but there is a codex in World of Thedas Volume 2 that states that Mage Circles can be very wealthy.

This comes not only from the selling of enchanted items but also decorational items for noble houses. Tapestries, stained glass, etc.

 

Enterprising mages are unlikely to starve which is part of the problem. Picture the most wealthy people on the planet are mages, controlling government's economy.

Which brings us to one of the reasons pro-Templars oppose mage freedom so fervently. What exactly is going to stop these super powered individuals from just taking over if they are free to do so?