993 réponses à ce sujet

[vbibbi]

You know, I'm curious.

Pro-Templar this, pro-mage that, we spend so much time arguing the same points over and over for no reason other than because we can't afford to lose face after so many years but, end of the day, what do you support? What does it mean to be for either of these factions?

 

C'mon, get on that pulpit and tell us all what do you want, how to get it. What is your ideal world?

 

I think the Circles and Templar Order and Seekers need to be revamped.

 

Seekers need to police both templars and mages, right now they seem more like high command for the templars and failed to actually do any investigations into reported templar abuses. They should be impartial to both groups and treat each with the same level of respect/suspicion/attention.

 

Templars should not be addicted to lyrium to enable Chantry control. There should be designated templars "on call" in a Circle at any time. They will be on lyrium in order to respond to emergencies immediately. They could be "on call" for a week, or however long it takes for lyrium to allow them their powers, then off for a few weeks. The other templars would still be in the Circles, but as a city guard rather than jailers. And a templar unit would have at least one mage accompanying them, especially if they are hunting an apostate. The mage would have to be a trusted and proven capable enchanter so the templars couldn't claim to be suspicious of the mage.

 

Mages should also have to be permitted to leave the Circle more easily than what we've seen to be the case. We can keep the phylacteries, maybe have templars create phylacteries as a show of good faith.

 

Rather than having all leadership be focused on the Divine and the grand enchanter and the head of the templars, have power delegated to the people. The Divine is the ultimate authority, but there are regional councils of mages, templars, and seekers, with possibly a local government official, to police the daily activities. Leaving judgments in the hands of the knight commander and first enchanter doesn't represent the will of the people.

[Master Warder Z_]

They could be "on call" for a week, or however long it takes for lyrium to allow them their powers, then off for a few weeks. 

 

Damage is still cumulative.

 

Besides you take up the risks with the armor, no Templar goes into that role without being well informed of the peril that awaits.

 

By the time you even get to take Lyrium, you have been studying and instructed for probably upwards of six to ten years.

 

I say we honor that sacrifice rather then demonize it personally.

[Master Warder Z_]

Don't forget all the really, really important lore we discover and then keep it a secret because why would we ever want to change the status quo?

 

I still can't think of a reason why we would keep quiet about the Titan, specially given that was the whole point of the expedition. I'm sure Orzmmar won't send anyone to check our story or even seek their bodies, and for once, sadly, I'm not being sarcastic.

 

Hence my frustration, if nothing changes anyway, why screw up the lore?

[Iakus]

"Yearly harrowings"

 

That would be incredibly dangerous. Honestly I always thought the harrowing thing was a stupid idea. If you want to avoid having mages be involved with demons, don't invite them to talk with demons to see if they'll turn out alright or not, lol. Just because they survived once doesn't mean they will the next time, and just doing that once makes it more likely to happen again. Let alone having them be tested against demons yearly.

Thus my thought on finding a way to make the Seeker sundering ritual adapted for mages.

[Steelcan]

I think my ideal world state would involve First Enchanters having more broad abilities to allow mages to live out if the Circle. Vivienne indicates that this is a practice done by many if not all Circles. Letting those who have passed their Harrowing and are proven trustworthy can live outside the Circles but must check in.

I'd make the Circles more akin to trade schools than just magical study. This would de-incentivice focusing only on magic as a tool for destruction. I'd also loosen restrictions on some schools of magic for trustworthy mages.

Research into helping lyrium addiction for templars, but I can't see templars without lyrium abilities being particularly useful for policing mages. I would hope to be able to trust the Seekers to gradually assume more "mundane" tasks, but that'd be unlikely probably given their small numbers.

As for the Elves, they can rot where they are.

[Master Warder Z_]

I think my ideal world state would involve First Enchanters having more broad abilities to allow mages to live out if the Circle. Vivienne indicates that this is a practice done by many if not all Circles. Letting those who have passed their Harrowing and are proven trustworthy can live outside the Circles but must check in.

I'd make the Circles more akin to trade schools than just magical study. This would de-incentivice focusing only on magic as a tool for destruction. I'd also loosen restrictions on some schools of magic for trustworthy mages.

Research into helping lyrium addiction for templars, but I can't see templars without lyrium abilities being particularly useful for policing mages. I would hope to be able to trust the Seekers to gradually assume more "mundane" tasks, but that'd be unlikely probably given their small numbers.

As for the Elves, they can rot where they are.

 

Very low numbers after the travesty of DAI.

 

 

That Order will take generations to recover even if you let em.

[MisterJB]

Since I was the one who asked the question, I suppose I should give my own answer.

Rather than focus on the "how" of things, I think I will explain the "why" behind it. Everyone knows I am Pro-Templars and thus believe in how the Circles regulate magic. However, why am I Pro-Templar?

 

I want for the people of Thedas who are born without magic to live in societies where they are NOT seen as inferior to mages. I want for them to be able to live their lives without mages looking down on them as "mundane" or "ungifted".

I want them to be able to ive without fearing the day some mage will take everything they have because they were possessed, couldn't control themselves or just because.

I want for their talents to be recognized and appreciated and used to move up in the world. I want them to not be ashamed of their strength and conquests but to also love culture in all its forms. I want technology to be developed and made available to all.

 

Now, make no mistake, I understand perfectly that much of what I wish for is impeded not just by mages but also by non-magical institutions such as the noble class. However, that doesn't mean mages themselves do not threaten my vision of Thedas. Hence why I am Pro-Templar.

[Xilizhra]

I want for their talents to be recognized and appreciated and used to move up in the world. I want them to not be ashamed of their strength and conquests but to also love culture in all its forms. I want technology to be developed and made available to all.

And you want none of this for mages?

[MisterJB]

And you want none of this for mages?

I do not believe that normal people and mages can coexist in any meaningful and equal fashion hence, I see them as a threat to my dreams described above.

 

Therefore, regardless of how I personally feel about mages, I see no choice but to oppose them.

 

What about you? What do you want?

[Walter Black]

In my Ideal world, we would circumvent this false dichotomy by safely making magic available to everyone, hence no mage vs mundane nonsense in the first place.

[Gervaise]

The biggest threat to your vision for Thedas is not mages but the class system.  Even when the Circles were in operation mages were treated differently if they were from nobility than if they were from the lower classes.  

 

Emile du Launcet could run away from the Circle and boast of being a blood mage but the Templars didn't storm his family mansion looking for him and Meredith spares him at the request of his father and the say so of Hawke, a noble.   Even though one of her own Templars suspected Gaspard du Puis of magical malpractice, Meredith halted the investigate at a complaint from him; a noble.   Maddox was made tranquil for the crime of "corrupting a Templar" by asking Samson to take love letters to the girl he knew before being hauled off to the Circle.  He was a peasant.   Vivienne may have originally been a peasant but got special privileges because she was the mistress of a noble and was able to openly use magic at a party because she was Court Enchanter.   Another former First Enchanter at the White Spire got her position because her noble father pushed for it, she had hand picked Templars to look after her and was able to spend much of her time away from the Circle at her own country retreat.   By contrast Alain was abused by Templars, as were many other mages; Cole confirmed this, much to the horror of Cassandra.  Why did not one object?   Because they preyed on peasant mages who had no one to speak up for them.

 

If the peasant mages were allowed to live in their communities it would give them access to healing and better protection against the abuses of nobles.   The reason that the Altus mages rule in Tevinter is that they are the nobility.   There are equally mages, like Calpurnia, who are slaves.   

 

The Chantry helps maintain he status quo.    The Tevinter Altus claim that magic is a gift of the Maker and this gives them the right to rule.    The Chevaliers claim that their position in society was a gift of the Maker and therefore they may do as they please by "Divine Right".  

 

Look at the Avaar.   The Thane is not a mage and the Auger helps advise the clan but does not rule over them.   It is not automatic that mages will rule society but how that society is structured.

[Master Warder Z_]

 By contrast Alain was abused by Templars

 

That was funny.

 

I mean he spends all that time crying about how they are being mean to him and he's pure as the driven snow and it turns out he's a blood mage.

 

.-. I don't condone rape, but I can find irony appealing in a literary sense being a writer myself.

[Xilizhra]

I do not believe that normal people and mages can coexist in any meaningful and equal fashion hence, I see them as a threat to my dreams described above.

 

Therefore, regardless of how I personally feel about mages, I see no choice but to oppose them.

 

What about you? What do you want?

The College of Enchanters existing as a stopgap until the aristocracy can be abolished is good enough for now. Creating a republican political system is the most important task, and when political philosophy has advanced enough to make that a reality, proper social engineering for mages can be achieved.

 

For elves, there are simpler measures which can be enacted now: abolish any and all legal differences between them and humans, and then enforce that. Additionally, give each Alienage independence from all other governments except the national, with their own political leaders.

[Hellion Rex]

Thus my thought on finding a way to make the Seeker sundering ritual adapted for mages.

One thing we need more data on is what happens after Tranquility has been reversed. Our only example of this has been Pharamond, and we didn't get to see him for any decent length of time. We don't know if the overwhelming emotions actually die down and if the person can return to normal. 

 

Also, are we 100% sure Pharamond had his abilities returned? I don't remember him actually using magic in the novel, outside of when he's possessed by the demon.

[Xilizhra]

One thing we need more data on is what happens after Tranquility has been reversed. Our only example of this has been Pharamond, and we didn't get to see him for any decent length of time. We don't know if the overwhelming emotions actually die down and if the person can return to normal. 

 

Also, are we 100% sure Pharamond had his abilities returned? I don't remember him actually using magic in the novel, outside of when he's possessed by the demon.

In my opinion, that doesn't matter a great deal. The equivalent of bipolar disorder is vastly better than "complete removal of emotions."

[Hellion Rex]

In my opinion, that doesn't matter a great deal. The equivalent of bipolar disorder is vastly better than "complete removal of emotions."

Never said it wasn't. But I want to know if there any other side effects. Again we haven't seen Tranquility reversed in a mage for any significant length of time. One thing I think is fair to extrapolate is that immediately following reversal of Tranquility, I'd imagine that any mage would effectively be a neon sign for any demons looking to possess a vulnerable mage, since their emotions are overwhelming them, and it's possible that their magic might go out of control while in this state.

[Colonelkillabee]

I do not believe that normal people and mages can coexist in any meaningful and equal fashion hence, I see them as a threat to my dreams described above.

 

Therefore, regardless of how I personally feel about mages, I see no choice but to oppose them.

 

What about you? What do you want?

Pretty much. Their power is simply too unpredictable, and has too much potential to screw things up, again. Unchecked you could end up in the long run with another Tevinter.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Pretty much. Their power is simply too unpredictable, and has too much potential to screw things up, again. Unchecked you could end up in the long run with another Tevinter.

Punishing an entire group of people just because they might do something bad is a pretty dangerous precedent and slippery slope. By your logic, should all mages be locked in prisons, killed at birth, or worse merely for the crime of existing?

 

 

Should we lock up all muslims in prisons merely because they might be terrorists? 

[Shechinah]

Punishing an entire group of people just because they might do something bad is a pretty dangerous precedent and slippery slope. By your logic, should all mages be locked in prisons, killed at birth, or worse merely for the crime of existing?

 

 

Should we lock up all muslims in prisons merely because they might be terrorists? 

 

I'll preface this by saying that I am not stating my opinion on mages, merely on this comparison;

 

I am not so sure this comparison would fly for numerous reasons; one of the primary ones being that non-fictional people are not capable of the same as mages nor are they at the same risk as mages; they are not capable of magic nor are they at risk of being possesed by a demon. Their power seems to be the reason Colonialkillabee is considering this what to do and as their power do not, in my opinion, have an equivalent in the real world this is why I question the validity of the comparison. 
 

[Hellion Rex]

 

 

Should we lock up all muslims in prisons merely because they might be terrorists? 

Let's stop this right here, cause it's going nowhere good.

[MisterJB]

The College of Enchanters existing as a stopgap until the aristocracy can be abolished is good enough for now. Creating a republican political system is the most important task, and when political philosophy has advanced enough to make that a reality, proper social engineering for mages can be achieved.

 

Proper social engineering?
 

[Master Warder Z_]

Proper social engineering?
 

 

o-o By way of the airlock.

[Iakus]

Never said it wasn't. But I want to know if there any other side effects. Again we haven't seen Tranquility reversed in a mage for any significant length of time. One thing I think is fair to extrapolate is that immediately following reversal of Tranquility, I'd imagine that any mage would effectively be a neon sign for any demons looking to possess a vulnerable mage, since their emotions are overwhelming them, and it's possible that their magic might go out of control while in this state.

Well, if it works like it does withthe Seekers, demons won't be an issue, as they'll be immune.

 

But yes the emotional instability is still very much an issue.  An emotionally compromised mage would be nearly as dangerous as an abomination.  But it is still something worth looking into.

 

Punishing an entire group of people just because they might do something bad is a pretty dangerous precedent and slippery slope. By your logic, should all mages be locked in prisons, killed at birth, or worse merely for the crime of existing?

 

There is no really good answer, but mages have powers which, even when undeveloped, can devastate a city.  And that's without the added effects of blood magic, demons, etc.  And magic is inborn, it cannot be given or taken away like other weapons.  

 

How do you regulate that?  How do you balance individual liberty with community safety?  While both are things to strive for, we have seen how too much of either can lead to disaster.

 

Proper social engineering?
 

Like the Magisterium? 

[Colonelkillabee]

Punishing an entire group of people just because they might do something bad is a pretty dangerous precedent and slippery slope. By your logic, should all mages be locked in prisons, killed at birth, or worse merely for the crime of existing?

 

 

Should we lock up all muslims in prisons merely because they might be terrorists? 

You don't want to know my opinion on Islam, so I'll leave that at the door. And as pointed out, the comparison is not there.

 

As for the mages, lets not jump on hyperboles. I wouldn't kill them at birth, after all you don't know who's a mage at birth anyway XD.

 

Realistically, that sort of thing cannot be left unchecked just because people think it's "punishment" to keep a mage somewhere they can be safe and learn to control their gift.

[Master Warder Z_]

As for the mages, lets not jump on hyperboles. I wouldn't kill them at birth, after all you don't know who's a mage at birth anyway XD.

 

Its a pity but true.