993 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Well, I would posit this question to you then: If you were able to ascertain at the moment of birth, or perhaps even at conception if a child were to have magical potential, what would you do?

[Colonelkillabee]

Its a pity but true.

Would make things easier. That's for sure.

 

I'm sure people here will think this monstrous but the truth is that is an option... Hell, there were civilizations in the old days, vikings and spartans I know of at the very least that threw out children that were weak or deformed... Now, that certainly doesn't justify it but I'm putting myself in this sort of society's shoes. Away from all our liberalism and our morality, which I think is always important when talking about a society that is not my own.

 

Granted, the kingdoms of dragon age are not exactly copies or even close to Spartans or Vikings, but you get my point, I hope. If the chantry and elves could figure what children had the gift and who didn't, I guarantee death at birth would be the fate of many, and I honestly wouldn't blame them. After all, for the elves at least, what is more cruel? Denying a child life, or letting them grow up, get to know their parents and the clan, then kick them out into the wilds to fend for themselves?

 

This is where I say that of course, not all or even most mages end up as abominations or blood mages. But I wonder, how many kings that found out their political enemies were mages or had mages under their wing would be okay with a security risk like that. It only takes one ******* to try and use a mage's gift for his own gain and to **** everything up for everyone.

 

Just something to think about. My vote still lies with using a circle, and to make them less like prisons, but death at birth if that were possible despite being used as a hyperbole to deflect from the truth of the danger of mages... is an option I'd consider.

[Colonelkillabee]

Well, I would posit this question to you then: If you were able to ascertain at the moment of birth, or perhaps even at conception if a child were to have magical potential, what would you do?

Ha, great timing See above.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

If mages are so vulnerable and so weak that they could destroy things so easily, then why does Tevinter Imperium exist ? How does it continue to exist ? Why don't we see any incident of destroyed buildings there ? Why don't we see many instances of possessed mages and abominations going totally out of control ?

 

Bioware has written mages from DA2 and DAI onwards as a group that is akin to the Mutants and the Inhumans in the Marvel Comics. The Marvel universe has been getting along without the need to consider murdering infants. Furthermore, Mutants are not in control of societies and governments.

[thesuperdarkone2]

If mages are so vulnerable and so weak that they could destroy things so easily, then why does Tevinter Imperium exist ? How does it continue to exist ? Why don't we see any incident of destroyed buildings there ? Why don't we see many instances of possessed mages and abominations going totally out of control ?

 

Bioware has written mages from DA2 and DAI onwards as a group that is akin to the Mutants and the Inhumans in the Marvel Comics. The Marvel universe has been getting along without the need to consider murdering infants. Furthermore, Mutants are not in control of societies and governments.

Not to mention the glimpses of tevinter society we've seen pretty much show that they aren't really a threat since they seem more focused on petty duels and politicking against each other as opposed to any conquering.

 

 

Also, how is tevinter any worse than Orlais? The codexes pretty much show that servants are treated like slaves but aren't explicitely called slaves, and the Chevaliers can legally rape anyone they want and have a tradition where they kill elves. Also, read the Stolen Throne to read what Orlais does to annexed provinces. A chevalier raped and killed Loghain's mom right in front of him and his father!

[Colonelkillabee]

If mages are so vulnerable and so weak that they could destroy things so easily, then why does Tevinter Imperium exist ? How does it continue to exist ? Why don't we see any incident of destroyed buildings there ? Why don't we see many instances of possessed mages and abominations going totally out of control ?

 

Bioware has written mages from DA2 and DAI onwards as a group that is akin to the Mutants and the Inhumans in the Marvel Comics. The Marvel universe has been getting along without the need to consider murdering infants. Furthermore, Mutants are not in control of societies and governments.

Because we know barely anything about their day to day aside from what Dorian's told us. They could very well have these issues crop up from time to time, but keep it covered up and from getting to the south. They are secretive about their power, even to themselves.

 

After all, we already saw what happens when mages go unchecked for too long. The blight, Cornflakes in the flesh proved the stories were true. We're also lucky in that the Qunari keep them distracted.

[Colonelkillabee]

Also, how is tevinter any worse than Orlais?

You won't catch me defending Orlesians. In my ideal world last page, I said they'd be massacred.

[Dean_the_Young]

Like the Magisterium? 

 

Closest thing surface Thedas has to a republican form of government.
 

[Hellion Rex]

Not to mention the glimpses of tevinter society we've seen pretty much show that they aren't really a threat since they seem more focused on petty duels and politicking against each other as opposed to any conquering.

 

 

Also, how is tevinter any worse than Orlais? The codexes pretty much show that servants are treated like slaves but aren't explicitely called slaves, and the Chevaliers can legally rape anyone they want and have a tradition where they kill elves. Also, read the Stolen Throne to read what Orlais does to annexed provinces. A chevalier raped and killed Loghain's mom right in front of him and his father!

Nah. Tevinter does the same crap Orlais does, and turns it up to 11. Both treat servants/slaves like crap, but I'd argue that the vast majority of Orlesian nobility are NOT blood mages that will drain the life force, boil the blood of, or mentally enslave their servants simply because they can.

 

Aren't really a threat? If that were so, I'd argue that they'd have long since lost to the Qunari. Their glory days are fading, true, but Tevinter still has more advanced magic than the rest of Southern Thedas.

[Hellion Rex]

As an edit to the above:

That isn't to say that all Tevinter magi are blood mages. There are still plenty of horrible things are normal mage can do with the "normal" schools of magic. Feats of fire, ice, lightning, and spirit. Forcing a Waking Nightmare (how the hell is this spell not banned in S. Thedas btw?) upon a servant who displeases you. Burning off the hand of a slave who steals. Giving a slave frostbite on their feet for bringing your dinner too slowly. Shocking a slave so hard that their heart stops beating. The list goes on with the possible petty cruelties that a mage could do that an Orlesian noble wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever pulling off.

[Xilizhra]

As an edit to the above:

That isn't to say that all Tevinter magi are blood mages. There are still plenty of horrible things are normal mage can do with the "normal" schools of magic. Feats of fire, ice, lightning, and spirit. Forcing a Waking Nightmare (how the hell is this spell not banned in S. Thedas btw?) upon a servant who displeases you. Burning off the hand of a slave who steals. Giving a slave frostbite on their feet for bringing your dinner too slowly. Shocking a slave so hard that their heart stops beating. The list goes on with the possible petty cruelties that a mage could do that an Orlesian noble wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever pulling off.

Of the four you mentioned, an Orlesian noble could easily perform two.

[Colonelkillabee]

Of the four you mentioned, an Orlesian noble could easily perform two.

They'd be more likely to perform the two if they could do it with their hands right then and there.

[In Exile]

You know, as awful as it is, there was at least one decent line in "Batman vs Superman".

"If you build a silver bullet, even if you never use it, you never have to depend upon the kindness of monsters."

Sure you do. You've got one bullet and more than one monster.

[Dean_the_Young]

If mages are so vulnerable and so weak that they could destroy things so easily, then why does Tevinter Imperium exist ? How does it continue to exist ? Why don't we see any incident of destroyed buildings there ? Why don't we see many instances of possessed mages and abominations going totally out of control ?

 

Possibly because we haven't been to Tevinter to look around.

 

Le gasp!

 

A broader response to your argument a lack of fatal harm or even remarkable harm to a society is not the same thing as a lack of harm. To grow, all a population has to do is have a higher birth rate than death rate. To survive, all a state has to do is not collapse- but what it takes to make a state collapse, and what it's people will accept before civil instability becomes intolerable, will vary by culture. Especially when something is culturally internalized to be unremarkable.

 

To bring in a real world analogy- gun violence. In the US, gun violence is accepted at rates far, far higher than elsewhere in the world. When there were 8,855 firearm homicides in 2012, the US barely even yawned. If it wasn't a mass shooting, it would barely register in the media or popular awareness. On the other hand, 8,855 firearm homicides would freak the **** out a country like Japan, or most countries in Europe. The US has something like 10.5 firearm deaths per 100,000 people: Japan has .06, and Germany has just over 1. The US has a high cost-tolerance for firearm deaths because of cultural values and experience- if other countries without that experienced it, there'd be major social reactions. It's not just things like gun violence either. When the government censors a newspaper in, say, China, it's routine and uncontroversial. When the government even tries to prosecute journalists for publishing about top-secret national security programs in the US, it faces significant public push-back and reaction. Again, cultural tolerance.

 

This is relevant to Thedas because of the difference between not having costs, and not having remarkable costs. We know from Dev comments, for example, that the Rivaini witches are analogous to 'forces of nature' rather than safe and benevolent. People tolerate forces of nature for a lot of reasons, but safety and lack of casualties is rarely one of them. Whereas in Tevinter we have an established mageocracy that has successfully suppressed revolts and forced toleration of extensive and well-documented abuses over millinia.

 

 

 

Bioware has written mages from DA2 and DAI onwards as a group that is akin to the Mutants and the Inhumans in the Marvel Comics. The Marvel universe has been getting along without the need to consider murdering infants. Furthermore, Mutants are not in control of societies and governments.

 

 

The Marvel universe also has mutants with far lesser abilities and dnagers than the mages of Dragon Age. And even in cases where it's greater- characters like Galactus the planet-eater- they often get cast as 'inevitable' and beyond morality rather than 'safe.'

[Iakus]

If mages are so vulnerable and so weak that they could destroy things so easily, then why does Tevinter Imperium exist ? How does it continue to exist ? Why don't we see any incident of destroyed buildings there ? Why don't we see many instances of possessed mages and abominations going totally out of control ?

 

We have seen very little of Tevinter so far

 

Not to mention the glimpses of tevinter society we've seen pretty much show that they aren't really a threat since they seem more focused on petty duels and politicking against each other as opposed to any conquering.

 

 

Also, how is tevinter any worse than Orlais? The codexes pretty much show that servants are treated like slaves but aren't explicitely called slaves, and the Chevaliers can legally rape anyone they want and have a tradition where they kill elves. Also, read the Stolen Throne to read what Orlais does to annexed provinces. A chevalier raped and killed Loghain's mom right in front of him and his father!

WHo says Tevinter is worse than Orlais?  ALl it shows is you don't have to be a mage to be a tyrant.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

To bring in a real world analogy- gun violence. In the US, gun violence is accepted at rates far, far higher than elsewhere in the world. When there were 8,855 firearm homicides in 2012, the US barely even yawned. If it wasn't a mass shooting, it would barely register in the media or popular awareness. On the other hand, 8,855 firearm homicides would freak the **** out a country like Japan, or most countries in Europe. The US has something like 10.5 firearm deaths per 100,000 people: Japan has .06, and Germany has just over 1. The US has a high cost-tolerance for firearm deaths because of cultural values and experience- if other countries without that experienced it, there'd be major social reactions. It's not just things like gun violence either. When the government censors a newspaper in, say, China, it's routine and uncontroversial. When the government even tries to prosecute journalists for publishing about top-secret national security programs in the US, it faces significant public push-back and reaction. Again, cultural tolerance.

 

 

[Hellion Rex]

Of the four you mentioned, an Orlesian noble could easily perform two.

Oh, care to be more specific?

[Colonelkillabee]

Is it bad that I smiled with pride at reading about our reaction to gun deaths? Lol, yawn indeed. Part of that is also our population in comparison to smaller European countries like Romania and such.

 

Anyway I was thinking this was interesting because someone once told me that my stance on gun law and regulation is like, the exact opposite to mages. Well, before someone brings that up again, guns don't attract demons, and a gun owner can be disarmed. Mages cannot. Well. Not as easily anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

Taste in vox aside, I can't tell if that's supposed to be a counter-argument or a supporting argument. I'm not inclined to sit through 20 minutes, but flipping between points didn't exactly discredit the data (which, admittedly, was from wiki), or the underlying argument (that different societies tolerate differing levels of violence).

 

I think I agree with AlanC9. People should make their own arguments, rather than outsource them to poorly organized and long-winded videos that don't actually address the argument in question.

[Colonelkillabee]

Oh and, those numbers are largely fabricated btw. For instance, if they say we had 239 instances of mass killings, they really mean 10 if that, and the shootings mostly are issues of home defense, where criminals are killed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Is it bad that I smiled with pride at reading about our reaction to gun deaths? Lol, yawn indeed. Part of that is also our population in comparison to smaller European countries like Romania and such.

Absolute population is a thing, but even per-capita violence is significantly above what's 'normal' in most other western societies.

 

Then again, North America is more or less God's way of saying 'don't live here.' Pretty much every region has significant reoccuring natural disasters, enough to make it sound like a deathworld. Do you like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, forest fires, blizzards, droughts, and living on top of an super-volcano ready to pop, on top of a world-leading rate of gun violence? Then North America is for you!

 

 

Anyway I was thinking this was interesting because someone once told me that my stance on gun law and regulation is like, the exact opposite to mages. Well, before someone brings that up again, guns don't attract demons, and a gun owner can be disarmed. Mages cannot. Well. Not as easily anyway.

 

 

 

Mage policy is more in the lines of WMD security, since mage potential is more on the scale of biological or chemical weapons. Which definitely are the sort of things we keep under lock and key and armed guard, rather than let walk free.

 

Or, for the more personal element, people in quarantine. An  abomination is basically a fast-motion disease outbreak model.

[Dean_the_Young]

Oh and, those numbers are largely fabricated btw. For instance, if they say we had 239 instances of mass killings, they really mean 10 if that, and the shootings mostly are issues of home defense, where criminals are killed.

 

I'm reminded of the guy who tried to make a chart proving that ME3 had more fetch quests than any other game... by making such selective standards and categories across the game that all he had was a pretty but pretty laughable chart.

 

 

But as far as this, the number of gun deaths is more relevant than the context, since context itself is another extension of cultural reaction.

[Colonelkillabee]

Taste in vox aside, I can't tell if that's supposed to be a counter-argument or a supporting argument. I'm not inclined to sit through 20 minutes, but flipping between points didn't exactly discredit the data (which, admittedly, was from wiki), or the underlying argument (that different societies tolerate differing levels of violence).

 

I think I agree with AlanC9. People should make their own arguments, rather than outsource them to poorly organized and long-winded videos that don't actually address the argument in question.

They're just pointing out that the example isn't necessarily the best. Gun violence in America may be higher in frequency, but that along with mass shootings is a blanket term. In actuality other countries have higher fatality rates than we do, we just have more gun owners and instances involving them. Our violent crime rate has also actually decreased.

 

The difference is only what the media shows.

[Colonelkillabee]

Absolute population is a thing, but even per-capita violence is significantly above what's 'normal' in most other western societies.

 

Then again, North America is more or less God's way of saying 'don't live here.' Pretty much every region has significant reoccuring natural disasters, enough to make it sound like a deathworld. Do you like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, forest fires, blizzards, droughts, and living on top of an super-volcano ready to pop, on top of a world-leading rate of gun violence? Then North America is for you!

 

The rate perhaps, but lethality? Britain actually has more lethal instances of violent crime than we do for instance, even though we have more violent crimes.

 

Rofl no comment on natural disasters. I've lived in areas that had both tornadoes and hurricanes. Honestly, we're like "meh" when it happens, most times they don't do anything.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, care to be more specific?

Burning and freezing.