993 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Burning and freezing.

And how can a mage be outperformed in that regard by a noble?

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm reminded of the guy who tried to make a chart proving that ME3 had more fetch quests than any other game... by making such selective standards and categories across the game that all he had was a pretty but pretty laughable chart.

 

 

But as far as this, the number of gun deaths is more relevant than the context, since context itself is another extension of cultural reaction.

That's exactly what it's like XD. Anyway, I'm not going against what you said, just pointing out some misconceptions. Fact is what you were saying all in all is correct, we're more used to guns and people using them, whether it's on criminals or innocents, and even if those numbers are exaggerated, than other countries. In that sense, the comparison to Tevinter and how they'd react to crazy mage **** is a good one.

[Xilizhra]

And how can a mage be outperformed in that regard by a noble?

I didn't say they could be, I just said that a noble could do the same.

[Dean_the_Young]

The rate perhaps, but lethality? Britain actually has more lethal instances of violent crime than we do for instance, even though we have more violent crimes.

 

Rofl no comment on natural disasters. I've lived in areas that had both tornadoes and hurricanes. Honestly, we're like "meh" when it happens, most times they don't do anything.

 

Which is kind of the point. It's normalized. I once had the pleasure of being with a tourist on their first time seeing a tornado. When the tornado siren went off, they thought it meant they were going to die.

 

Same thing occurs with crime, and other happenings. Different types of crimes can ellicit different sorts of responses from a culture because of the weight of the symbol, rather than actual cost. Murder by X may be bad, but god forbid if there's a gun! (Or, in American context- we shrug at thousands of murders a year, but have massive government responses to terrorism that typically kills far fewer.)

Bringing this back to Dragon Age- Tevinter and Southern Thedas can be expected to have different cultural tolerances, brought about by different cultural experiences.

 

In Southern Thedas, there's a very low tolerance for magic disasters- not only is it restricted (due to the Circle system), but it's rare (for the same reason). When it does occur, it's not only remarkable for it's rarity, but also for it's illegitimacy (since abominations are typically either from maleficar, or from people avoiding the Circle System in the first place).

 

Tevinter could have a far higher tolerance for what's remarkable even if, especially if, abominations were more frequent. A mellenia of suppression and victimization can lead to cultural resignation and normalization, so that deaths, while not desired, are not especially fussed over. What's the point?

 

This isn't saying that Tevinter has more abominations than southern Thedas, rather than fewer- just that it would be perfectly compatible with what we've seen and heard, which is to say nothing. We don't have enough evidence about relative abominations to make a judgement either way, but the lack of evidence isn't an evidence of lack because even if there were more we could expect to hear less (even if we did have a representative codex sampling system, which we don't).

[GreaterGoodIreland]

A lot of people seem to be pretty unreasonable when assessing Fiona here, particularly about joining up with the Tevinters.

The context of that decision seems to be getting lost in the rush to condemn her as a traitor to her own kind.

 

There was open war in the Hinterlands between mages and Templars, displacing the local populace and causing no small amount of damage to the countryside. The Inquisition didn't fully secure the region until after either the Templars or Mages are chosen. They didn't have the forces at their command to do so when the decision was made. This likely means that repudiation of the offer by Ferelden to shelter the mages was fast approaching even without Tevinter magister shenanigans. The likely scenario after that is a Templar siege of Redcliffe, filled with refugees as it was, followed by the Ferelden Army coming in and purging the victorious side.

 

Fiona didn't exactly have a lot of options besides making a last stand or accepting the Tevinter offer.

 

The Inquisition was weak at the time, had no noble allies and was formed mostly from former Chantry personnel for the most part. Even if it wasn't hostile to the mages, which was a risk pre-timewarp Fiona had to run through in extending her offer in Val Royeaux, it didn't look to have the strength to help in time.

 

Flight to the Free Marches or elsewhere would have been impossible. They had children and elderly people with them, mages or not, and they were facing off against a group of professional warriors. They would have likely been cut down on the road, piece by piece. Even if they could have gotten to Amaranthine or Denerim, Ferelden's major port cities, there are the questions of whether or not they would have been admitted into the cities, and how they would have paid passage to wherever they wanted to go next. Even then, that whole plan is a delaying action; the Templars would undoubtedly follow. The only places they couldn't follow would be Tevinter or Qunari turf.

 

Attempting to beat the Templars in the Hinterlands would have the same result as not attempting to do so; even if the mages won, which was certainly possible, Ferelden would undoubtedly have brought down its state forces to subdue them, particularly with the number of rogue mages floating about. In the end, the magister's presence was the straw that broke the camel's back in this regard, but there was no shortage of other pieces of straw that would have done the same thing ultimately.

 

The only place on Thedas where mages aren't persecuted is Tevinter, nasty as it is. Tevinter was an established power with full diplomatic recognition, and military might enough to demand immunity for its subjects. Compared to the Inquisition, which hadn't extended a hand yet, Alexius' offer, especially the one given initially, would have looked very inviting not just to Fiona but most of her followers. Ten years service is a pitiful cost for a lifetime of relative freedom, not to mention the same for all descendants. That they'd be hauled in for use as Venatori cannon fodder was *not* known and not really forseeable when the offer was made and accepted.

[Colonelkillabee]

Fiona didn't exactly have a lot of options besides making a last stand or accepting the Tevinter offer.

She should have made a last stand, rather than sell her soul. That isn't winning, that's giving the enemy what they wanted all along, which is to demonize the mages to the world, and showing that when the chips are down, mages will resort to extreme measures every single time, whether it's blood magic, demons, or now tevinter.

 

Have some balls is all I ask of them. I'd rather die with pride than live to be someone's ****** for survival. All they did was trade one sugar daddy for another.

[GreaterGoodIreland]

She should have made a last stand, rather than sell her soul. That isn't winning, that's giving the enemy what they wanted all along, which is to demonize the mages to the world, and showing that when the chips are down, mages will resort to extreme measures every single time, whether it's blood magic, demons, or now tevinter.

 

Have some balls is all I ask of them. I'd rather die with pride than live to be someone's ****** for survival. All they did was trade one sugar daddy for another.

 

We're talking about civilians with children and the elderly in tow here, the vast majority *not* possessing any real military experience. Certainly no discipline of that sort, save for the knight-enchanters (of which I presume there weren't too many, they tended to be in Viv's camp to my mind). Fiona's priorities by this stage are their ultimate freedom and their lives, not some ideological battle with the Chantry over whether or not they were right to fear mages. Of course, they're still mages, so they could have actually won a last stand, because they possess reality bending powers. But then Ferelden would have been pissed and turfed them out on their asses, or more likely, killed them.

 

Indentured servitude to Tevinter for a limited period of time, one not extending to any descendants, is a markedly better "sugar daddy" to being locked up in a prison *forever*, with your children taken away from you and constant abuse in many cases, also *forever*, with the shadow of executions on the whim of religious fanatics hanging over you. They may be magic, but they're not seers, they couldn't possibly know the Venatori purpose.

[Colonelkillabee]

They should have thought about elderly women and children before the conflict, which Fiona helped spark initially against the will of others, I might add. She made that bed, now she has to lay in it. And there being women and children just makes her choice worse. I didn't say give up and go back, but keep fighting. Wouldn't be the first time a people chose death for all over enslavement.

[GreaterGoodIreland]

They should have thought about elderly women and children before the conflict, which Fiona helped spark initially against the will of others, I might add. She made that bed, now she has to lay in it. And there being women and children just makes her choice worse. I didn't say give up and go back, but keep fighting. Wouldn't be the first time a people chose death for all over enslavement.

It was hardly entirely her fault that there was a war. There are a fair number of people who share the blame, many of them Templars. Personally, I blame the higher authorities both secular and religious. The Divine and the kings of the realms where these Circles were located should have had the good sense to see disaster when it was looming, and put the boot into Templars and mages alike. Ferelden, ironically, may be the exception here.

 

As for her decision being worse because of the children, I suspect ten years of servitude followed by citizenship is preferable to rape and murder by fanatics hell-bent on a genocide.

 

I think it's fairly obvious that she *was* thinking of the children when she played her part in making the rebellion happen though. There's nothing particularly wrong with wanting freedom from permanent imprisonment and repression. Wanting children and wanting your children to have a better life than you had is natural. Not that there's anything wrong with fearing children who can shoot fire from their palms either, of course, especially when you're an unenlightened peasant and/or indoctrinated to the eyeballs, as most people in Thedas inevitably are.

[sniper_arrow]

As for her decision being worse because of the children, I suspect ten years of servitude followed by citizenship is preferable to rape and murder by fanatics hell-bent on a genocide.

 

I wouldn't trust on what Alexius said to her. They were either going to be the Venatori soldiers or Corypheus's slaves. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

http://forum.bioware...path-mage-path/
 

Relevant quotes from that long post.
 

 

This one is a match up between Barris and Fiona. Fiona has been introduced to Dragon Age fans twice via 2 books, The Calling and Asunder. Naturally with her head start, you would expect Fiona to be better than Barris but like Samson, Fiona flounders. In both The Calling and Asunder, Fiona is portrayed as a rebel and a someone who is anti status quo. She is someone who has rebelled against the Circle system and the Chantry but she can't rebel against a single Tevinter magister ? That is completely ridiculous and out of character for her. Furthermore, unlike Fiona, Barris actually recognizes that the Templars screwed up and helps the Inquisition during Champions of the Just whereas Fiona does absolutely nothing to help you and goes along with Alexius' plans despite her career as an ex-Grey Warden and the Grand Enchanter. This trend continues after the quests where Barris continues to be productive regardless of alliance of conscription of the Templars. He can either lead the reformed Templar Order if the Herald chooses alliance or he will become Cullen's agent anyway. Meanwhile, Fiona just hangs around the library doing absolutely nothing for the Inquisition. This is despite the fact that she is a Spirit Healer, the Dragon Age wiki lists her as one (http://dragonage.wik...i/Spirit_healer), which theoretically makes her a someone that could be very useful but we never see her healing anybody throughout the game.

 

 

[Illegitimus]

They should have thought about elderly women and children before the conflict, which Fiona helped spark initially against the will of others, I might add. She made that bed, now she has to lay in it. And there being women and children just makes her choice worse. I didn't say give up and go back, but keep fighting. 

 

Ah.  So the problem with Fiona is that she isn't enough of a fanatic willing to sacrifice everyone else for her principles.  

 

 

I wouldn't trust on what Alexius said to her. They were either going to be the Venatori soldiers or Corypheus's slaves. 

 

 When Fiona made that deal she didn't know that Corypheus existed much less that Alexius had been subverted by him.  

[Colonelkillabee]

 

Ah.  So the problem with Fiona is that she isn't enough of a fanatic.  

 

 

If that's what you want to call dedicated enough to not trade your people over to guys just as bad if not worse than who you're fighting against, rendering their deaths pointless, then sure.

[GreaterGoodIreland]

I wouldn't trust on what Alexius said to her. They were either going to be the Venatori soldiers or Corypheus's slaves. 

As I've explained above, I don't think she had much else choice. I think she greatly underestimated the fight the Templars were willing to put up, as well as just how little sway the Chantry would have in reining them in.

 

http://forum.bioware...path-mage-path/
 

Relevant quotes from that long post.
 

She can't rebel against a single Tevinter magister because he's the only line to a land where mages aren't imprisoned and the Templars cannot follow. Really not that hard to grasp. Plus, by this stage she has been rebelling for almost all of her life. Perhaps she's grown tired of it, tired of the risks. Certainly comes off like that to me.

 

And again, there was no reason for her to reject Alexius' offer. Assuming she was knowledgeable about Tevinter politics, she would have heard of his previous association with more liberal Tevinter elements, and the darkspawn attack on his family. Being both a mage and a former Grey Warden, she is essentially a natural ally to him in theory. Of course, the reality is that he has become Venatori, but it's not like she's aware of that sort of thing when she makes the deal.
 

 

If that's what you want to call dedicated enough to not trade your people over to guys just as bad if not worse than who you're fighting against, rendering their deaths pointless, then sure.

To Circle mages, Tevinters are hardly worse than Templars. Sure, they have slaves, but Templars are the oppressors.

 

Besides, as many have pointed out, she wasn't aware that Alexius was in fact very very bad.

[sniper_arrow]

 

Ah.  So the problem with Fiona is that she isn't enough of a fanatic.  

 

 

 

 When Fiona made that deal she didn't know that Corypheus existed much less that Alexius had been subverted by him.  

 

 

 

Ah.  So the problem with Fiona is that she isn't enough of a fanatic.  

 

 

 

 When Fiona made that deal she didn't know that Corypheus existed much less that Alexius had been subverted by him.  

 

 

The deal she took with Tevinter would warrant a political backlash against her. Think about it, the moment she accepted that deal, she didn't do anything to prevent Alexius kicking Teagan out from his own castle, let alone his village. Plus the fact that she sold her own people within Fereldan borders would be considered as a crime.

 

I'd refer you to this link on the Fiona problem: http://forum.bioware...entry17930439. 

[GreaterGoodIreland]

The deal she took with Tevinter would warrant a political backlash against her. Think about it, the moment she accepted that deal, she didn't do anything to prevent Alexius kicking Teagan out from his own castle, let alone his village. Plus the fact that she sold her own people within Fereldan borders would be considered as a crime.

 

I'd refer you to this link on the Fiona problem: http://forum.bioware...entry17930439. 

Not sure there is a political backlash she should have been worried about beyond what was already coming.

 

Rogue mages and templar bands are roaming Ferelden attacking each other and the locals, and Teagan would have eventually seen his town besieged by Templars, forcing him to choose between the mages and a battle that would see his vassals killed in droves. Fereldan goodwill is already out the window. The Chantry is toothless without the Templars and hates mage freedom anyway. The Templars have decided genocide is the most favourable option for resolution of the crisis. Orlais is in the midst of civil war and can't be arsed. The Free Marchers don't care, they already had Kirkwall. Nevarra has a political crisis of its own looming. The Qunari are too far away.

[Iakus]

 

To Circle mages, Tevinters are hardly worse than Templars. Sure, they have slaves, but Templars are the oppressors.

 

Besides, as many have pointed out, she wasn't aware that Alexius was in fact very very bad.

Tevinters are also blood mages.

 

Alexius "altering the arrangement" right there in front of the Inquisitor was a pretty good indication that he was "very very bad"

[thesuperdarkone2]

Tevinters are also blood mages.

 

Alexius "altering the arrangement" right there in front of the Inquisitor was a pretty good indication that he was "very very bad"

How would you react if the game went like this:

 

 

Alexius: I'm changing the deal

 

Fiona: The Inquisition needs mages, then let's join the Inquisition and break off this deal

 

"Mages join the Inquisition"

 

 

No gameplay and we all know Bioware would rather make people hold the idiot ball than write a story that makes sense. Harvester Orsino on the mage side is just the most prominent instance.

[KaiserShep]

Which is kind of the point. It's normalized. I once had the pleasure of being with a tourist on their first time seeing a tornado. When the tornado siren went off, they thought it meant they were going to die.

 

Same thing occurs with crime, and other happenings. Different types of crimes can ellicit different sorts of responses from a culture because of the weight of the symbol, rather than actual cost. Murder by X may be bad, but god forbid if there's a gun! (Or, in American context- we shrug at thousands of murders a year, but have massive government responses to terrorism that typically kills far fewer.)

Bringing this back to Dragon Age- Tevinter and Southern Thedas can be expected to have different cultural tolerances, brought about by different cultural experiences.

 

In Southern Thedas, there's a very low tolerance for magic disasters- not only is it restricted (due to the Circle system), but it's rare (for the same reason). When it does occur, it's not only remarkable for it's rarity, but also for it's illegitimacy (since abominations are typically either from maleficar, or from people avoiding the Circle System in the first place).

 

Tevinter could have a far higher tolerance for what's remarkable even if, especially if, abominations were more frequent. A mellenia of suppression and victimization can lead to cultural resignation and normalization, so that deaths, while not desired, are not especially fussed over. What's the point?

 

This isn't saying that Tevinter has more abominations than southern Thedas, rather than fewer- just that it would be perfectly compatible with what we've seen and heard, which is to say nothing. We don't have enough evidence about relative abominations to make a judgement either way, but the lack of evidence isn't an evidence of lack because even if there were more we could expect to hear less (even if we did have a representative codex sampling system, which we don't).

 

 

Julian, did you hear?

 

No, what?

 

The Cresius boy turned into an abomination at the First Day gathering at the Zinovia estate? Killed 30 people before they finally subdued him.

 

Hmph! I always knew that lad was destined for scandal.

 

I know, right? 

[GreaterGoodIreland]

Tevinters are also blood mages.

 

Alexius "altering the arrangement" right there in front of the Inquisitor was a pretty good indication that he was "very very bad"

Yeah, he altered the arrangement *after* the deal was made and Fiona was bound to him.

[Illegitimus]

If that's what you want to call dedicated enough to not trade your people over to guys just as bad if not worse than who you're fighting against, rendering their deaths pointless, then sure.

 

Bad for whom?  Once again she didn't know that Corypheus existed or that Alexius was anything but a Magister looking for a bunch of magicians that he could use to get the upper hand over the other magisters.  Assuming that Alexius's offer was honest, something that would have been not at all impossible or unlikely, then the deal of 10 years of servitude followed by actual freedom would have been a way better deal for her followers than being wiped out by the Templars.  It would have even been way better than a future of being confined for life to a Circle under the new rules that were being put in place when they rebelled.  She made a wrong call in accepting the deal...obviously but it's obvious because of things that she could not have known at the time.  

 

So the real question is, "Why didn't she organize another rebellion when it became increasingly obvious that Alexius was double crossing them?"  She's a broken woman when the Herald meets her again.  Why?  Sure she's older than she was in the books.  Sure she's losing the war with the Templars.  But when she went to Val Royeaux...she wasn't a broken woman.  She was still working the angles looking to make a deal.  That could have led to her deal with Alexius but it doesn't explain why when the Inquisition shows up that she isn't still working the angles and she never tries to work one again.  Time travel in itself doesn't explain that.  

 

But blood magic is pretty good at breaking people.  

[Master Warder Z_]

Tevinters are also blood mages.

Alexius "altering the arrangement" right there in front of the Inquisitor was a pretty good indication that he was "very very bad"

Here is a unicycle-you will ride it wherever you go.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yeah, he altered the arrangement *after* the deal was made and Fiona was bound to him.

 

Fiona was a moron for upholding the deal. Based on The Calling and Asunder, Fiona is supposed to be a rebel and someone who is anti status quo.

 

The Fiona in the books, would have made a deal of alliance with the Inquisition in the Redcliffe tavern itself, gave Alexius the finger and started a bar fight with the Tevinter Magister right then and there instead of willingly allowing herself to be indentured to Alexius.

 

I mean, this woman decided to give the Chantry and the Templars the finger during a tense moment in Asunder despite the consequences but she is willing to go along with the whims of a single Tevinter Magister who doesn't seem to be supported by his own son. That is just preposterous and ridiculous on a whole new level.

[Shechinah]

Bad for whom?  Once again she didn't know that Corypheus existed or that Alexius was anything but a Magister looking for a bunch of magicians that he could use to get the upper hand over the other magisters.  Assuming that Alexius's offer was honest, something that would have been not at all impossible or unlikely, then the deal of 10 years of servitude followed by actual freedom would have been a way better deal for her followers than being wiped out by the Templars.  It would have even been way better than a future of being confined for life to a Circle under the new rules that were being put in place when they rebelled.  She made a wrong call in accepting the deal...obviously but it's obvious because of things that she could not have known at the time.

 
It was highly unlikely the deal would have been honored and Fiona seems to catch onto to that in the tavern in Redcliffe;

Inquisitor: "What does the Imperium gain from taking rebels mages under it's wing?"
Geron Alexius: "For the moment, the Southern mages are an considerable expense. After they are properly trained, they will join our legion."
Fiona: "You said not all my people would be military. There are children. Those not suited-"
Geron Alexius: "And one day I am sure they will all be productive citizens of the Imperium when their debts are paid."

 

Indentured servitude has always, to my knowledge been ripe for abuse especially as some courts have neglected to recognise the freedom guarantee. Now consider the country in question and the vulnerability of the mages in question: What would happen if Alexius decided to change the terms of the arrangement when they are in Tevinter?

 

Perhaps he'll change the terms so the mages' living necessities will be added to their debt, perhaps he will change it so the indentured servitude will last until the debts have been paid which the last line of the quotes seem to imply he has already done or perhaps he'll change the terms so that the indentured servitude becomes slavery.

 

What would Fiona's options be then? She can try to legally protest it but whose side would the courts of Tevinter be in favor of? Geron Alexius, a respectable citizen of Tevinter and an academically accomplished magister or Fiona, a foreign slave? She can try to rebel and be swiftly put down as rebellions are in the Imperium. She can try to escape and be hunted as would any of her people who might try the same.

 

Perhaps Fiona had a document stating the terms of the arrangement? That would only be of use as long as the document remains and even then it might be contested. If she tries to present it in an aforementioned court scenario as evidence, well, it would not be the first piece of submitted evidence to be lost before or during a trial.

 

This is all considering that they do not arrange an "accident" for Fiona or toss her somewhere where she might be of use to them but without her having a chance of causing trouble.

 

The Tevinter Imperium is known for corruption and slavery.

[Reznore57]

The moment Alexius threw the tranquils out of town and to their death , and Fiona didn't care or do anything , it's clear as day she's willing to throw anyone under the bus in the sake of  her own stupidity.

She didn't even need to know the Venatori were killing them , the Hinterland was a hostile place only a few tranquil would survive.

But it didn't matter because tranquil aren't really mages anymore, I suppose.

Somehow what's left of her brain managed to think if some of her charges were thrown to the wolves , the others would be protected 100% by their slave status.Suuure....Think of the children!But do not think of the tranquils the second most vulnarable among the people she says she wants to protect.

Come on.

 

Fiona brain can only fonction in a "the world is out to get me and everybody own me something but they will betray me ."

She's bitter after the warden gave her the boot , even if they did not harm her in any way and don't give a crap about her anymore.

She cause a fuzz first thing in the circles , and then when for the first time there is a Divine pro mage , she doesn't see the opportunity because everything is bad , rebellion , rebellion.

She gets protection from Ferelden , but doesn't think she got protection from Ferelden , when she's chilling in some castle and people outside the walls , Fereldan peasants are getting slaughtered by templars and rebel mages.

Rebel mages she washes her hand off of them, not her problem hey she's safe afterall , walls and healers and all the nice things.

When finally she sides with someone who obviously don't want to help her , just help himself , she managed to be OUTRAGED.

When Alistair and Anora get the castle back she goes "But ..but what are we going to do?...." Asking help from Ferelden just after she threw those people under the bus like anyone else.

 

She's one of a kind.