993 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

How would you react if the game went like this:

 

 

Alexius: I'm changing the deal

 

Fiona: The Inquisition needs mages, then let's join the Inquisition and break off this deal

 

"Mages join the Inquisition"

 

 

No gameplay and we all know Bioware would rather make people hold the idiot ball than write a story that makes sense. Harvester Orsino on the mage side is just the most prominent instance.

 

I could see it working in a way that includes gameplay;

 

Fiona sees a preferable alternative in the Inquisition where she felt she had none before. She always suspected Alexius would not honor the arrangement but felt she had no other alternative for her people than death and was pressured into making the arrangement by the Tevinter through subtle threats.

 

She fears that the Tevinters might harm her people if they suspect she's thinking of reneging on the deal or if they attempt to leave with the Inquisition. Because of this, she tries to hatch a plan with the Inquisitor but before they can carry it out, the meeting with Alexius happens in the throne room.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tevinters are also blood mages.

 

Alexius "altering the arrangement" right there in front of the Inquisitor was a pretty good indication that he was "very very bad"

 

There was also the point that he was staying in the castle- which was the least logical and most suspicious course of action from his supposed reason to be there. If Fiona needed a castle, she could have just continued aligning with Ferelden. Whereas a castle won't protect her from Ferelden when it comes to take it back after Alexius ousts the Arl.

 

The moment Alexius ousted the Arl, the mages had a limited amount of time to flee Ferelden's retaliation. The fact that Alexius simply sits there and waits is the give-away that the mages well-being isn't his actual objective.

[Dean_the_Young]

How would you react if the game went like this:

 

 

Alexius: I'm changing the deal

 

Fiona: The Inquisition needs mages, then let's join the Inquisition and break off this deal

 

"Mages join the Inquisition"

 

 

No gameplay and we all know Bioware would rather make people hold the idiot ball than write a story that makes sense. Harvester Orsino on the mage side is just the most prominent instance.

 

About the same as I would have if in Val Royeaux the Inquisitor talked to the Templars and recruited them on the spot to close the Breach.

 

 

*What's-his-name punches the lady*

 

Inquisitor: How'd you all like to not follow the guy who beats ladies and help me close the breach endangering all of Thedas instead? It's literally on your way to Ferelden.

 

*Templars join the Inquisition*

 

 

No gameplay, and we all know that Bioware needed pointless violence to make a faction unsympathetic rather than write a story that makes sense. Meredith as a charicature with no character presence or development before her insanity is just the most prominent instance.

[Dean_the_Young]

Julian, did you hear?

 

No, what?

 

The Cresius boy turned into an abomination at the First Day gathering at the Zinovia estate? Killed 30 people before they finally subdued him.

 

Hmph! I always knew that lad was destined for scandal.

 

I know, right? 

 

Sadly, that's probably about right for Tevinter.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, he altered the arrangement *after* the deal was made and Fiona was bound to him.

 

Fiona was never bound to Alexius in any way that infringed upon her free will. She was just as capable of altering the arrangement as he was- and has every grounds to, since he broke the agreement first.

 

Bad for whom?  Once again she didn't know that Corypheus existed or that Alexius was anything but a Magister looking for a bunch of magicians that he could use to get the upper hand over the other magisters.  Assuming that Alexius's offer was honest, something that would have been not at all impossible or unlikely, then the deal of 10 years of servitude followed by actual freedom would have been a way better deal for her followers than being wiped out by the Templars.  It would have even been way better than a future of being confined for life to a Circle under the new rules that were being put in place when they rebelled.  She made a wrong call in accepting the deal...obviously but it's obvious because of things that she could not have known at the time. 

 

Whether slavery, military service as canon fodder, and being a tool for a politician in a notriously oppressive and exploitative regime that pits its own mages into a dog-eat-dog politics is better than the Circle is highly questionable. Especailly considering what 'actual freedom' means in Tevinter.

 

Whereas her followers were not actually in danger of being wiped out by the Templars. The approaching Templar army right over that hill that I can save you from if you just sell yourselves into slavery now now now was a deceit of Alexius- and one Fiona fell for, hook, line, and sinker. There was no such Templar force- and no such Templar force could plausibly have overrun Redcliffe castle. We certainly have no evidence Ferelden was intending to withdraw it's already established offer of protection to the Mages.

 

 

 

 

So the real question is, "Why didn't she organize another rebellion when it became increasingly obvious that Alexius was double crossing them?"  She's a broken woman when the Herald meets her again.  Why?  Sure she's older than she was in the books.  Sure she's losing the war with the Templars.  But when she went to Val Royeaux...she wasn't a broken woman.  She was still working the angles looking to make a deal.  That could have led to her deal with Alexius but it doesn't explain why when the Inquisition shows up that she isn't still working the angles and she never tries to work one again.  Time travel in itself doesn't explain that.  

 

But blood magic is pretty good at breaking people.

 

 

So is losing a war and having your proud rebellion ground into dirt and reliant on the benevolence of strangers.

 

Which actually did happen, whereas there's no indication that blood magic was ever involved, and if there's anyone involved who should want to be able to claim 'blood magic' as an excuse for their actions, it's Fiona. But she doesn't..

[Iakus]

How would you react if the game went like this:

 

 

Alexius: I'm changing the deal

 

Fiona: The Inquisition needs mages, then let's join the Inquisition and break off this deal

 

"Mages join the Inquisition"

 

 

No gameplay and we all know Bioware would rather make people hold the idiot ball than write a story that makes sense. Harvester Orsino on the mage side is just the most prominent instance.

"Idiot balls" are not very good writing.  As yes, Orsinio/Harvester demonstrated.

 

So no, there shouldn't have been a no-gameplay Fiona-switches-sides moment, but there should have been a different complication the Inquisitor would have to overcome to bring the mages in.   

[Xilizhra]

"Idiot balls" are not very good writing.  As yes, Orsinio/Harvester demonstrated.

 

So no, there shouldn't have been a no-gameplay Fiona-switches-sides moment, but there should have been a different complication the Inquisitor would have to overcome to bring the mages in.   

Personally, I think it should have been mandatory to recruit both. But then, I also would have had the Inquisition be the main antagonist and the PC being the leader of a force being assembled to stop it, with Corypheus not appearing at all and being used in a different plot later.

[Reznore57]

Personally, I think it should have been mandatory to recruit both. But then, I also would have had the Inquisition be the main antagonist and the PC being the leader of a force being assembled to stop it, with Corypheus not appearing at all and being used in a different plot later.

 

You mean mages and templars?

The strange thing is you have templars and you have mages in the Inquisition , you can see them fighting before going to Val Royeaux , there's Lysette , and Cullen talks about having some templars around.

Not sure why those guy are unimportant though.

I guess we're supposed to believe only 10 of them joined the Inquisition freely ...there's also the Circles mages Vivienne talks about if I remember correctly.

[vbibbi]

How would you react if the game went like this:

 

 

Alexius: I'm changing the deal

 

Fiona: The Inquisition needs mages, then let's join the Inquisition and break off this deal

 

"Mages join the Inquisition"

 

 

No gameplay and we all know Bioware would rather make people hold the idiot ball than write a story that makes sense. Harvester Orsino on the mage side is just the most prominent instance.

 

Bioware could have still written an actual quest to follow Fiona ditching Alexius. He seems like a smart guy who is always prepared, I'm sure he would prepare for her defection once he showed his true colors. Why not have her join the Inquisition in the tavern, then he does the Tevinter mustache twirl and says he knew she would never fall for such a stupid plan, clicks his heels, yanks on the time amulet, and the entire tavern is pulled into the future.

 

Or something along those lines. Why would Fiona rejecting his offer automatically mean Alexius would meekly accept it and leave? He's not Fiona!

 

Yeah, he altered the arrangement *after* the deal was made and Fiona was bound to him.

 

This was the perfect time for her to reject the arrangement. He had proved he was willing to change the arrangement to suit him without prior warning, the Inquisition appeared as an alternative ally, they were outside of the castle with few Venatori around. But she just whimpers and follows him, knowing she is leaving the potential ally who wants her help in closing the hole in the sky in order to become slaves and presumably fight against the Qunari.

 

Fiona was never bound to Alexius in any way that infringed upon her free will. She was just as capable of altering the arrangement as he was- and has every grounds to, since he broke the agreement first.

 

 

Whether slavery, military service as canon fodder, and being a tool for a politician in a notriously oppressive and exploitative regime that pits its own mages into a dog-eat-dog politics is better than the Circle is highly questionable. Especailly considering what 'actual freedom' means in Tevinter.

 

Whereas her followers were not actually in danger of being wiped out by the Templars. The approaching Templar army right over that hill that I can save you from if you just sell yourselves into slavery now now now was a deceit of Alexius- and one Fiona fell for, hook, line, and sinker. There was no such Templar force- and no such Templar force could plausibly have overrun Redcliffe castle. We certainly have no evidence Ferelden was intending to withdraw it's already established offer of protection to the Mages.

 

 

 

 

So is losing a war and having your proud rebellion ground into dirt and reliant on the benevolence of strangers.

 

Which actually did happen, whereas there's no indication that blood magic was ever involved, and if there's anyone involved who should want to be able to claim 'blood magic' as an excuse for their actions, it's Fiona. But she doesn't..

 

Yeah, the blood magic theory is fine, but it's just a theory. Bioware is usually not very subtle about things. If blood magic had been involved, Fiona would have mentioned it in Skyhold, or there would have been a cutscene between her and Dorian about it, or any indication that blood magic was in use. Not theories that are weak headcanons to justify poor writing.

 

Bioware would have at least had some hint, like the soul swap Cory did at the end of Legacy oh wait people still didn't believe that was a clue never mind.

[vbibbi]

Personally, I think it should have been mandatory to recruit both. But then, I also would have had the Inquisition be the main antagonist and the PC being the leader of a force being assembled to stop it, with Corypheus not appearing at all and being used in a different plot later.

I would have liked recruiting both factions. Maybe not make it mandatory, since DAI was all about player freedom from actually doing story content if we would rather skip entire maps.

 

But have the choices matter. We could recruit mages and when we go to recruit templars, there are more templars who have already been corrupted into red templars. Or envy has more power and the Fade sequence in our head is longer. Or if we recruit templars first, Alexius has time to fortify the castle, so the Inquisition spies don't kill all of the Venatori, and we have to fight them when we return from the future.

 

And if we recruit both factions, more of them are killed at Haven, so our overall forces are weaker when we arrive at Skyhold. Of course, this would mean our troop numbers would actually have to matter in the rest of the game. Maybe have some measure of forces when we're besieging Adamant or the Arbor Wilds to determine how successful we are or how many less enemies the PC has to get through.

[Iakus]

Bioware could have still written an actual quest to follow Fiona ditching Alexius. He seems like a smart guy who is always prepared, I'm sure he would prepare for her defection once he showed his true colors. Why not have her join the Inquisition in the tavern, then he does the Tevinter mustache twirl and says he knew she would never fall for such a stupid plan, clicks his heels, yanks on the time amulet, and the entire tavern is pulled into the future.

 

Or skip time travel magic entirely, and have the Vints turn on the mages once Fiona accepts working for the Inquisitor, and make the mission be about freeing the mages, reaching the gates of Redcliffe, and escaping.

[Iakus]

Personally, I think it should have been mandatory to recruit both. But then, I also would have had the Inquisition be the main antagonist and the PC being the leader of a force being assembled to stop it, with Corypheus not appearing at all and being used in a different plot later.

I'm not so wild about making the Chantry the automatic bad Guys and needing to be torn down.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Or skip time travel magic entirely, and have the Vints turn on the mages once Fiona accepts working for the Inquisitor, and make the mission be about freeing the mages, reaching the gates of Redcliffe, and escaping.

 

Escorting Rebel Mages who can die like you do in the DA Multiplayer is most definitely more exciting than escorting dumb Druffaloes.

[vbibbi]

Or skip time travel magic entirely, and have the Vints turn on the mages once Fiona accepts working for the Inquisitor, and make the mission be about freeing the mages, reaching the gates of Redcliffe, and escaping.

 

Lord yes, I would have been more than happy to skip time travel.

 

Escorting Rebel Mages who can die like you do in the DA Multiplayer is most definitely more exciting than escorting dumb Druffaloes.

 

Except Fiona would still be immortal like Druffy because we couldn't manage to continue the game without her presence...

[Xilizhra]

I'm not so wild about making the Chantry the automatic bad Guys and needing to be torn down.

They aren't: the new Lord Seeker basically launches a coup against the Chantry, installs his choice of Divine who then authorizes the recreation of the Inquisition, and the renegade Chantry loyalists (possibly including Justinia herself if she survives) are on your side.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lord yes, I would have been more than happy to skip time travel.

 

 

Except Fiona would still be immortal like Druffy because we couldn't manage to continue the game without her presence...

 

On the plus side, it would be funny to see her try and solo the entire enemy force.

[Silcron]

A lot of people seem to be pretty unreasonable when assessing Fiona here, particularly about joining up with the Tevinters.
The context of that decision seems to be getting lost in the rush to condemn her as a traitor to her own kind.
 
[snip]

And it seems that the context of the mages situation prior the arrival of the Venatori was lost in the rush to defend her. I've read your post and the discussion after and this point seems to have been forgotten.

They had the protection of Ferelden. The Arl of Redcliff had allowed the mages to take refuge in there and the monarchs of Ferelden approved. At that point it wasn't mages vs templars but templar vs mages and the Fereldan army. They didn't need the Inquisition or the Venatori for protection. Fiona approaching the Inquisition is actually an intelligent move. They have the support of Ferelden, help the new organization set for closing the Breach and that'd be a great PR boost for the mages. One nation accepts them and they are proactive in helping the land agaisnt the Breach and demons, surely these mages can't be the monsters the templars paint them out to be.

Selling herself to the Venatori is incredibly stupid, there was no dire situation, in fact they had had it worse before Redcliff. The moment these mages, these rebels that had decided to stand against the templar and be free got to know that Alexius had ousted the Arl they should have rebelled. Even with infinltrators trying to sell them on the idea betraying and angering an ally you *already* had is not something they should have been ok with, specially when you are in the middle of the nation you just pissed off.

It's a mess I'm glad I can ignore going with the templars.

[Iakus]

 

Except Fiona would still be immortal like Druffy because we couldn't manage to continue the game without her presence...

Ser Barris can be killed off in Champions of the Just.  I don't see why Fiona couldn't under similar circumstances

[Master Warder Z_]

Ser Barris can be killed off in Champions of the Just.  I don't see why Fiona couldn't under similar circumstances

 

Her dementia gives her resistance to stabbing, except at Haven where her drooling lunacy has progressed to full fledged insanity and results in her death.

[MisterJB]

I wish people would stop criticizing Fiona's decision for some time. Certainly, it was unbelievably stupid but, quite frankly, it pales in comparison to her previous ones.

 

1-Demanding a vote for independence in the middle of Val Royeaux; which was under martial law at the time; while surrounded by possibly thousands of Templars and definitely thousands of normal troops, including Chevaliers with only a dozen First Enchanters to enforce it.

 

2-Actually declaring their independence with no allies, no resources, no spies, no treaties, no blackmail material, no infrstructure, basically absolutely nothing to support them besides their own magical abilities.

 

So, just for a little bit, could we discuss just how stupid these decisions were?

[Medhia_Nox]

I wish people would stop criticizing Fiona's decision for some time. Certainly, it was unbelievably stupid but, quite frankly, it pales in comparison to her previous ones.

 

1-Demanding a vote for independence in the middle of Val Royeaux; which was under martial law at the time; while surrounded by possibly thousands of Templars and definitely thousands of normal troops, including Chevaliers with only a dozen First Enchanters to enforce it.

 

2-Actually declaring their independence with no allies, no resources, no spies, no treaties, no blackmail material, no infrstructure, basically absolutely nothing to support them besides their own magical abilities.

 

So, just for a little bit, could we discuss just how stupid these decisions were?

 

1) F--k the Divine.

 

2) Magic

 

What else is there really to discuss?  This is all she's got. 

[Hellion Rex]

I kinda agree with JB. Her dumb decision is just one of many dumb decisions.

In my opinion, the issue of independence wasn't necessarily the issue. It's how she pursued it that was extremely stupid. She did it in the middle of Chantry territory, surrounded by God knows how many Templars that are probably not very sympathetic. And even then, she did it when not even all the mages were onboard. She forced them to throw in with the mages or be slaughtered. Adrian might have committed the act that was the final straw, but Fiona set her up beautifully.

My sympathies lie with the mages who wanted no part of this, that were forced into a battle for their lives and were then killed because of what Fiona wrought.
Independence is great and all, but that probably means jack to the innocence who had to die for it.

[MisterJB]

Well, I often find myself wondering just what exactly was she hoping would happen.

 

Hypothetical scenario, Lambert doesn't interrupt their first conclave and the majority actually votes for independence. Now what?

Are they going to step out of the room and inform the Templars that from now onwards, they have officially lost all authority over the Circles and thus should begin vacating the premises of the White Spire and they would go "Well, they voted on it so I guess we have no real choice but obey, sorry abou the past 900 years, I hope you don't hurt anyone."

 

And then the Chantry and Sovereign Kingdoms of Thedas would recognize this decisions and begin seating at the table with the mages to figure out what to do next?

 

 

AH!

 

[Hellion Rex]

1) F--k the Divine.

2) Magic

What else is there really to discuss? This is all she's got.

I love how she gave the middle finger to the woman who probably could have been her strongest ally.

[Medhia_Nox]

I love how she gave the middle finger to the woman who probably could have been her strongest ally.

 

The whole thing is just so obviously a bad idea... it makes me think of the Children's Crusade (not thematically) - a bunch of ignorant pilgrims think that their belief and good will are enough to conquer the Holy Land... so they follow a child who wants to peacefully convert Muslims. 

 

And then are summarily wiped out by famine, slavery and slaughter.