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[MisterJB]

Now, call me crazy, but I had been Grand Enchanter, I would done something like this:

 

"Oh, Grand Duke Gaspard is a traitor, the Empress' fate is unknown and Val Royeaux may be besieged? Well, how horrible. Rest assured, we of the Circle of Magi stand ready to come in defense of this great and noble city, this jewel in the face of Thedas. Whether it be by throwing fireballs, casting protective shields or healing the wounded, the Circle of Magi stands ready.

Templars: You can't do that.

 

What?, Sir, we mage are merely trying to fulfill our duties to our empress and nation. Grand Duke Gaspard is the one trying to rule men, we are trying to serve them. Certainly, you would not deny the rightful government the use of our abilities?"

 

And when the war was over, just present a list of the rights and privileges we feel we are now entitled to.

 

But you know, maybe would have just been me.

[Hellion Rex]

^^This is assuming the first vote for independence has been cast, right? Before Lambert really got involved?
If so, then I agree.

[Medhia_Nox]

Now, call me crazy, but I had been Grand Enchanter, I would done something like this:

 

"Oh, Grand Duke Gaspard is a traitor, the Empress' fate is unknown and Val Royeaux may be besieged? Well, how horrible. Rest assured, we of the Circle of Magi stand ready to come in defense of this great and noble city, this jewel in the face of Thedas. Whether it be by throwing fireballs, casting protective shields or healing the wounded, the Circle of Magi stands ready.

Templars: You can't do that.

 

What?, Sir, we mage are merely trying to fulfill our duties to our empress and nation. Grand Duke Gaspard is the one trying to rule men, we are trying to serve them. Certainly, you would not deny the rightful government the use of our abilities?"

 

And when the war was over, just present a list of the rights and privileges we feel we are now entitled to.

 

But you know, maybe would have just been me.

 

I don't think you would get them... but what you would have done, was change minds.  

Taking advantage of a moment when people could use mages... to support the populace and change minds on a grassroots level would be a very good step.  

 

It's not flashy like a failed revolution... but I think you're already on the path to actually changing how mages are seen on Thedas

 

And... hilariously... isn't that was happens when they join the Inquisition?

[Xilizhra]

Now, call me crazy, but I had been Grand Enchanter, I would done something like this:

 

"Oh, Grand Duke Gaspard is a traitor, the Empress' fate is unknown and Val Royeaux may be besieged? Well, how horrible. Rest assured, we of the Circle of Magi stand ready to come in defense of this great and noble city, this jewel in the face of Thedas. Whether it be by throwing fireballs, casting protective shields or healing the wounded, the Circle of Magi stands ready.

Templars: You can't do that.

 

What?, Sir, we mage are merely trying to fulfill our duties to our empress and nation. Grand Duke Gaspard is the one trying to rule men, we are trying to serve them. Certainly, you would not deny the rightful government the use of our abilities?"

 

And when the war was over, just present a list of the rights and privileges we feel we are now entitled to.

 

But you know, maybe would have just been me.

I'm fairly sure that all happened after Asunder, yes?

 

But if "what-if" scenarios are what we're going with... if I was the Grand Enchanter at the time...

 

Independence from the Chantry is a secondary priority; first priority is to eliminate the templars. Thankfully, Lambert is unstable, and if I was to keep the Conclave on-topic, he'll snap at the wrong moment anyway; I can then accurately claim that Lambert is the one in violation of the law, and furthermore that this is a systematic problem within the Templar Order, one that demonstrates its unfitness to guard the Circle. If it's at all possible to get the templars to rebel first, that would be ideal, but if not, our political position is still relatively strong.

[MisterJB]

^^This is assuming the first vote for independence has been cast, right? Before Lambert really got involved?
If so, then I agree.

A vote for independence at this point in time was just stupid regardless of anything. As I said before, the mages had nothing going for them except for their magic.

They did not have popular support, they did not have political support, they did not have spies, they did not even have an infrastructure with which to feed or arm their soldiers.

[Master Warder Z_]

Now, call me crazy, but I had been Grand Enchanter, I would done something like this:

 

"Oh, Grand Duke Gaspard is a traitor, the Empress' fate is unknown and Val Royeaux may be besieged? Well, how horrible. Rest assured, we of the Circle of Magi stand ready to come in defense of this great and noble city, this jewel in the face of Thedas. Whether it be by throwing fireballs, casting protective shields or healing the wounded, the Circle of Magi stands ready.

Templars: You can't do that.

 

What?, Sir, we mage are merely trying to fulfill our duties to our empress and nation. Grand Duke Gaspard is the one trying to rule men, we are trying to serve them. Certainly, you would not deny the rightful government the use of our abilities?"

 

And when the war was over, just present a list of the rights and privileges we feel we are now entitled to.

 

But you know, maybe would have just been me.

 

The AXIS gambit, I like it!

 

That said it only works if you have justifiable force behind it to back up any sort of involvement and allegiance to a organization or nation to act in capacity with its members. For example, to defend the city is one thing, but to actually be rewarded for that service is a differing matter, the Magi have no real position to demand anything of the Empire. It would certainly endear some good will but that isn't anything but sentiment, to actually get results you either need a stick or a carrot. Magi have neither.

 

They don't have a backing of a sovereign nation to enforce any sort of demand, and they as the rebellion demonstrates lack any ability to effectively wage war. They lack the military or political and economic force to enable any system to reward them out of anything but gratitude and that is flaky at best.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Master Warder Z:  I disagree that good will amounts to nothing.  

 

True, it's very unlikely to get immediate returns, but you "can" leverage it to advantage if you're smart.  

You could, if you're particularly clever - defend positions knowing full well that - if successful - these will garner favor in the future.  Nobles, or holy sites, or wealthy merchants, or even bards/thieves/etc.  

 

Admittedly - you need a good PR firm before/during and after the event... but I think it can be useful.

[Master Warder Z_]

@Master Warder Z:  I disagree that good will amounts to nothing.  

 

True, it's very unlikely to get immediate returns, but you "can" leverage it to advantage if you're smart.  

You could, if you're particularly clever - defend positions knowing full well that - if successful - these will garner favor in the future.  Nobles, or holy sites, or wealthy merchants, or even bards/thieves/etc.  

 

Admittedly - you need a good PR firm before/during and after the event... but I think it can be useful.

 

I don't say its worthless, I say its nothing but sentiment, and that changes with the wind.

 

You need to cut deals before hand with the right people, and that requires connections the mages don't have or if they do are never shown, at the end of the day they have exceptionally little going in their favor for this scenario as it stood at Asunder.

 

They lack the 30 or so nuclear warheads that AXIS had in its own negotiations with Earth.

 

Lacking the capacity to force the issue, makes them reliant on either good relations with notable persons or...what amounts to basically charity.

[Hellion Rex]

I'm fairly sure that all happened after Asunder, yes?

No, not necessarily. Gaspard was already trying to persuade Wynne to his side (presumably to replace Lienne Montsimmard). Also, the gates of Val Royeaux were closed. Pretty sure, we also heard that Celene was already holed up in Halamshiral as well. (I'm gonna fact check that last sentence when I get to my kindle shortly.)

[GreaterGoodIreland]

I get the feeling that many people complaining about Fiona taking the initiative and pushing for independence would have been the sort to let British rule or slavery continue in America, simply because blood might have to be spilled to resolve the matter. It's bizarre conservativism from the collective mouths here. The mages, whether you like it or not, had been shown the true face of the system after Kirkwall. The possible consequences of rebellion held them off from splitting as long as possible. The Templars then screwed the pooch further.

 

You're all speaking with a huge degree of retrospective knowledge too. It's all very well to say that it should have all been done more smartly, but that's a very detached view. What happened might have been the only chance for mage freedom for centuries.

[Shechinah]

I get the feeling that many people complaining about Fiona taking the initiative and pushing for independence would have been the sort to let British rule or slavery continue in America, simply because blood might have to be spilled to resolve the matter.

 
Wait, wait, I made a post about this today;
 

It's still endlessly bemusing (and hilarious) that there are people out there that will get genuinely upset and offended because people choose to side with a different faction than they did in a game.

 

Or how the decisions you make in a game is somehow evidence of what kind of person you are in real life.

It's the later post. I quoted SnakeCode's because otherwise mine might lose context.

[MisterJB]

The mages, whether you like it or not, had been shown the true face of the system after Kirkwall.

A system that has lasted for a thousand years introduced temporary restrictions in response to multiple terrorist attacks and a bellicose Grand Enchanter who was pushing for war.

 

Well, clearly that is completely unresonable and the only solution is to burn it down.

[Medhia_Nox]

I get the feeling that many people complaining about Fiona taking the initiative and pushing for independence would have been the sort to let British rule or slavery continue in America, simply because blood might have to be spilled to resolve the matter. It's bizarre conservativism from the collective mouths here. The mages, whether you like it or not, had been shown the true face of the system after Kirkwall. The possible consequences of rebellion held them off from splitting as long as possible. The Templars then screwed the pooch further.

 

You're all speaking with a huge degree of retrospective knowledge too. It's all very well to say that it should have all been done more smartly, but that's a very detached view. What happened might have been the only chance for mage freedom for centuries.

 

LOL England was an entire OCEAN away and the revolution would have failed if it weren't for the French.

[Master Warder Z_]

LOL England was an entire OCEAN away and the revolution would have failed if it weren't for the French.

 

Ehh

 

By the time the Americans showed them it could be done...England was losing steam for war quick.

 

The French advanced the end of the conflict certainly with their monetary and military aid but...I have to say that the early Americans did achieve some rather remarkable victories all their own.

[Hellion Rex]

LOL England was an entire OCEAN away and the revolution would have failed if it weren't for the French.

And here the French could be transposed to the "powerful ally" that could feasibly have supported those wishing to rebel from the Circle system.

[Steelcan]

Z has the right of it, French aid helped, but they only got involved after several decisive battles went the way of the Americans, most importantly Saratoga.

[Medhia_Nox]

Ehh

 

By the time the Americans showed them it could be done...England was losing steam for war quick.

 

The French advanced the end of the conflict certainly with their monetary and military aid but...I have to say that the early Americans did achieve some rather remarkable victories all their own.

 

Gotta fight you on this one... no way would the colonials have won had the English not also been in a "Clash of the Titans" pissing contest with France and Spain.

 

The contributions of the French are often grossly downplayed...

 

France, Spain and England weren't fighting over a bunch of colonial rats... they were fighting over an entire planet at the time.  The victory of the colonials was a calculated endeavor (and therein lies the great strategy of the founding fathers - right place, right time)

 

Nothing at all like that (world powers playing chess with the globe) existed at the time Fiona made her "moral stand". 

[Hellion Rex]

Regardless though, the Circle had no allies, no support, and no funds to help their rebellion whatsoever.

[GreaterGoodIreland]

A system that has lasted for a thousand years introduced temporary restrictions in response to multiple terrorist attacks and a bellicose Grand Enchanter who was pushing for war.

 

Well, clearly that is completely unresonable and the only solution is to burn it down.

Since the Templars would have refused all reforms, yeah, that was the only solution. At least from the mage perspective.

 

Tempted to throw a Kennedy quote in here.

 

 
Wait, wait, I made a post about this today;
 

 

It's the later post. I quoted SnakeCode's because otherwise mine might lose context.

People getting very upset over someone locked in a cage with a bunch of religious fanatics, some of whom have a taste for murder and rape, deciding they'd rather not be locked up in a cage... that is something to talk about. Fictional or not, it's fairly telling to judge such people harshly.

[Medhia_Nox]

Regardless though, the Circle had no allies, no support, and no funds to help their rebellion whatsoever.

 

Yes, this is my real point.

[Medhia_Nox]

I wonder how much violence people who so casually commit to it have seen.  

[MisterJB]

Since the Templars would have refused all reforms, yeah, that was the only solution. At least from the mage perspective.

 

Tempted to throw a Kennedy quote in here.

First and foremost, one should take into account that, mayhaps, on this instance it wasn't a matter of the system needing reforms so much as the mages needing to purge their more violent elements who seemed more interested in blowing up people in the name of freedom than in seeking continued coexistance.

Second, give how Wynne, an extremely influential Enchanter, was working alongside the most mage-friendly Divine to diffuse tensions and introduce reforms, there is certainly no reason to believe this was an "now or never, all or nothing situation", especially since neither normal people nor mages are going anywhere. So, maybe bloody revolution in the wake of assassination attempts on the Divine was very ill-timed.

 

 

Kennedy spoke of mages and Templars? I had no idea he played Dragon Age.

 

 

People getting very upset over someone locked in a cage with a bunch of religious fanatics, some of whom have a taste for murder and rape, deciding they'd rather not be locked up in a cage... that is something to talk about. Fictional or not, it's fairly telling to judge such people harshly.

 

Never mind the fact, of course, that Circles are wealthy institutions that provide mages with a quality of life in many ways superior to what 99% of the Thedosian population enjoys with acess to free shelter, food, education, clothing, etc; that religion does not equal fanatism; that mages are in no more danger from Templars than normal people are from guardsman; and that mages have the capacity to kill people with their minds when they aren't busy enslaving them or starting Bligths.

 

Personally, I am more concerned over the possibility of mages with a taste for murder and rape living in communities where the nearest Templar is two days of hard ride away.
 

[Medhia_Nox]

It's interesting that nobody ever seems to mention the murder that happened to spark this war. 

 

Adrian is another of Fiona's failures.  

[Master Warder Z_]

Gotta fight you on this one... no way would the colonials have won had the English not also been in a "Clash of the Titans" pissing contest with France and Spain.

 

I honestly don't recall there being a note worthy war between those three parties during 1775-77. There was the usual economic and political nonsense of the era, but nothing that would truly enable the English to have the excuse of 'oh if only we hadn't been fighting the French during 1776 while at the same time fighting the Americans.' I will admit that Spain itself allying with the Americans a year later was the writing on the wall that this was going to go POORLY for Britain years before the war ended but...honestly yeah.

 

The Americans did some stuff that proved to the European powers that England's military might wasn't quite as up to snuff as it used to be well before they offloaded a single musket.

[Hellion Rex]

Double post