Plus he's a loon.
He's akin to a willing collaborator more so then a misguided officer anyway. He knew about Cory, Samson, etc, he went along with it.
He's as much a Templar by that point as Fiona.
It is really odd how we can judge Denam but not Fiona. Weird really.
It is really odd how we can judge Denam but not Fiona. Weird really.
It is really odd how we can judge Denam but not Fiona. Weird really.
Yes and No.
Yes, because in terms of their place in the arcs they have similar roles. Collaborators to Corypheus proxies who made the decision to go along with Bad Ideas that harmed others, authority figures in their organizations who were trusted and grieviously failed their factions which would have led to total ruin without the Inquisitor's intervention, and with Darker Secrets hidden behind locked doors (the murdered Knight-Vigilant in Denam's room, the house of tranquil skulls in Redcliffe) that cast even worse light on their leadership. If their factions do NOT appear, Denam and Fiona fill the same role as named figures in the attack on Haven during In Your Heart Shall Burn.
Functionally, they are the equivalent of eachother for their factions in nearly every aspect but one- the judgement.
No, however, because there's an obvious reason why they didn't use Fiona- because they were already using Alexius for the judgement in the mage route, and there was a 1-person-per-zone/quest rule of sorts as far as judgements went.
Honestly, I was disappointed we couldn't commend them for making necessary sacrifices. Betrayal or no, the Blight is the Blight. And Poulin's collaboration was a no-win situation- not doing business with the Red Templars once she knew the truth wouldn't have helped anyone, since at that point they would have/could have just abducted people anyway. She wasn't in a position to stop them.
It's not that I don't feel it's perfectly alright to condemn them- I'd just have liked it if for some of our judgements (like this one) we could judge 'not guilty,' or 'justified.' For the proven members of the Venatori, every option being a punishment of sorts makes sense. But for questions of whether it's really a crime, given the context? We can absolve the Wardens for worse.
And yes, I'd be more than open to the possibility of a 'not guilty' judgement of Fiona having that as an option if she were tried. Put in the relevant approval effects if you do, but by all means let the Inquisitor give pro-mage rhetoric and absolve Fiona of guilt because Templars. The Templar judgement of Knight Captain Denam allows you to sentence him to, well, being a Templar.
*I note we haven't actually mentioned Ser Denam much- and he is a Templar judgement in which the idea of 'just following orders' is raised. The charge isn't that he knowingly did anything bad- it really is that he followed orders that harmed and risked his faction. That's could be relevant to Fiona as well.
You actually can find Poulin not guilty and let her go with no penalty. Less so for Dedrick, but presumably, if you do the operation to capture him, you want to punish him; if you don't want to, you can just not pursue him (whereas Poulin is automatically put up for judgment after completing Rocky Rescue).
Yes and No.
Yes, because in terms of their place in the arcs they have similar roles. Collaborators to Corypheus proxies who made the decision to go along with Bad Ideas that harmed others, authority figures in their organizations who were trusted and grieviously failed their factions which would have led to total ruin without the Inquisitor's intervention, and with Darker Secrets hidden behind locked doors (the murdered Knight-Vigilant in Denam's room, the house of tranquil skulls in Redcliffe) that cast even worse light on their leadership. If their factions do NOT appear, Denam and Fiona fill the same role as named figures in the attack on Haven during In Your Heart Shall Burn.
Functionally, they are the equivalent of eachother for their factions in nearly every aspect but one- the judgement.
No, however, because there's an obvious reason why they didn't use Fiona- because they were already using Alexius for the judgement in the mage route, and there was a 1-person-per-zone/quest rule of sorts as far as judgements went.
There's precedence for two judgements in one quest. We judge Erimond and Warden Ruth after HLtA.
There's precedence for two judgements in one quest. We judge Erimond and Warden Ruth after HLtA.
I'm not sure on that. Ruth wanted to be judged, even specifically asked to be executed and made an example.
I'm not sure on that. Ruth wanted to be judged, even specifically asked to be executed and made an example.
But it's still treated as a Skyhold judgment, regardless of whether we captured Ruth or she submitted herself to judgment. I was replying to the statement that there have not been two judgments per zone/quest line in the game. There have been, so there's no technical reason why we could not have judged Alexius and Fiona.
Or we could have had the mirror to the templar path. Have Fiona involved in the war table missions and at the end of that quest chain, either grant her the regained title of grand enchanter (if we allied with mages and we were successful in the war table missions) or elect someone else (Lysas? if conscripted)
I liked Lysas. Nice kid who just wanted a simple life, and he didn't break and become Venatori in the Bad Future which is more than can be said for other mages in this rebellion.
Would have liked further interactions with him.
I liked Lysas. Nice kid who just wanted a simple life, and he didn't break and become Venatori in the Bad Future which is more than can be said for other mages in this rebellion.
Would have liked further interactions with him.
I would have liked for the other mage in Redcliffe, the pro Tevinter woman, to be less of an muahaha caricature and actually make good points about why southern mages should go to Tevinter. Maybe make it look more reasonable for the mages to have agreed to the deal (since they didn't know it was actually Venatori and not the Tevinter government).
Or don't make Alexius look so unreasonable in changing the terms of the agreement as he went, and when Fiona says children and elderly shouldn't fight, he could agree and say they would be kept safe to show Tevinter's good will.
I would have liked for the other mage in Redcliffe, the pro Tevinter woman, to be less of an muahaha caricature and actually make good points about why southern mages should go to Tevinter. Maybe make it look more reasonable for the mages to have agreed to the deal (since they didn't know it was actually Venatori and not the Tevinter government).
Or don't make Alexius look so unreasonable in changing the terms of the agreement as he went, and when Fiona says children and elderly shouldn't fight, he could agree and say they would be kept safe to show Tevinter's good will.
Agreed, but I think it's safe to say that In Hushed Whispers was badly written, on every side.
I would have liked for the other mage in Redcliffe, the pro Tevinter woman, to be less of an muahaha caricature and actually make good points about why southern mages should go to Tevinter. Maybe make it look more reasonable for the mages to have agreed to the deal (since they didn't know it was actually Venatori and not the Tevinter government).
Or don't make Alexius look so unreasonable in changing the terms of the agreement as he went, and when Fiona says children and elderly shouldn't fight, he could agree and say they would be kept safe to show Tevinter's good will.
I wouldn't have minded for there to be someone who espoused that viewpoint. I mean, I don't even disagree with the deal on principle "You hate us, don't want us here, we're trying to leave."
But it's perfectly logical for there to be a good number of mages who are just looking foward to being part of the upper class when they reach Tevinter.
One thing I did like was the contrast between Lysas and that other black mage you can speak with near the Gryphon statue.
Lysas is vehemently pro-freedom, going so far as to think of the Circles as slavery, but he doesn't seem to be that bad a person. Kid wants to grow crops and have children and in the Bad Future, it is revealed how he actually didn't break and join the Venatori.
Meanwhile, that other mage is the definition of groveling, all but throwing himself at the Herald's feet and condemning Tevinter in the harshest terms. But in the BF, he has become a Venatori and tortures the pro-mage Cleric that is near the Chantry showing that he was just telling us what he thought we wanted to hear and quickly went along with whoever was the dominant power.
And then there's Connor and that other mages who saw that mages are a threat and actually liked the Circles. So, there were many viewpoints available.
I would have liked for the other mage in Redcliffe, the pro Tevinter woman, to be less of an muahaha caricature and actually make good points about why southern mages should go to Tevinter. Maybe make it look more reasonable for the mages to have agreed to the deal (since they didn't know it was actually Venatori and not the Tevinter government).
Or don't make Alexius look so unreasonable in changing the terms of the agreement as he went, and when Fiona says children and elderly shouldn't fight, he could agree and say they would be kept safe to show Tevinter's good will.
LOL
Bioware writers cannot help but write mustache-twirling cartoonishly villainous Dick Dastardlys. I mean, there was nothing stopping them from writing Alexius as a man of honor who actually keeps his word and will actually honor the terms of the indentured servitude contract. Or Alexius as a man who readily agrees children and elderly should not fight. And look at Erimond. Especially Erimond. Fvcking Erimond. He's got the mustache, the goatee, the stupid face, and the villainous voice. Everytime he talks, its a villainous monologue. He is everything that a cartoon villain is. He is both laughable and enraging at the same time because I can't take him seriously and I hate the bad writing he represents. There is no subtlety or nuance with Bioware.
Modifié par Vit246, 08 avril 2016 - 08:52 .
LOL
Bioware writers cannot help but write mustache-twirling cartoonishly villainous Dick Dastardlys. I mean, look at Alexius and Erimond. Especially Erimond. He's got the mustache, the goatee, the stupid face, and the villainous voice. Everytime he talks, its a villainous monologue. There is no subtlety or nuance with Bioware.
Alexius has more nuance than that. Erimond was kind of ridiculous, though.
LOL
Bioware writers cannot help but write mustache-twirling cartoonishly villainous Dick Dastardlys. I mean, there was nothing stopping them from writing Alexius as a man of honor who actually keeps his word and will actually honor the terms of the indentured servitude contract. Or Alexius as a man who readily agrees children and elderly should not fight. And look at Erimond. Especially Erimond. Fvcking Erimond. He's got the mustache, the goatee, the stupid face, and the villainous voice. Everytime he talks, its a villainous monologue. He is everything that a cartoon villain is. He is both laughable and enraging at the same time because I can't take him seriously and I hate the bad writing he represents. There is no subtlety or nuance with Bioware.
First of all, even if Alexius wanted to, he couldn't give the mages a fair shake because his son's life was pretty much on the line. Regardless of whether or not Corypheus could actually reverse the Taint in Felix is irrelevant. I think Alexius was a decent character due to his desperation to save his son. So in that regard, I credit him. Ergo, I think you're flat wrong about Alexius.
Erimond on the other hand, is pretty bad. Loved to make him Tranquil.
Now, call me crazy, but I had been Grand Enchanter, I would done something like this:
"Oh, Grand Duke Gaspard is a traitor, the Empress' fate is unknown and Val Royeaux may be besieged? Well, how horrible. Rest assured, we of the Circle of Magi stand ready to come in defense of this great and noble city, this jewel in the face of Thedas. Whether it be by throwing fireballs, casting protective shields or healing the wounded, the Circle of Magi stands ready.
Templars: You can't do that.
What?, Sir, we mage are merely trying to fulfill our duties to our empress and nation. Grand Duke Gaspard is the one trying to rule men, we are trying to serve them. Certainly, you would not deny the rightful government the use of our abilities?"
Templars: Of course we would. Our primary job is keeping you lot out of politics.
First of all, even if Alexius wanted to, he couldn't give the mages a fair shake because his son's life was pretty much on the line. Regardless of whether or not Corypheus could actually reverse the Taint in Felix is irrelevant. I think Alexius was a decent character due to his desperation to save his son. So in that regard, I credit him. Ergo, I think you're flat wrong about Alexius.
Erimond on the other hand, is pretty bad. Loved to make him Tranquil.
*shrug* ok I guess you have a point.
Templars: Of course we would. Our primary job is keeping you lot out of politics.
Mages contributing to the war effort is not unhead of. In fact, Wynne says it's the reason she didn't warn anyone of what Gaspard was planning to do.
And of course, attempts by the Templars to minimize their deployment would place them at odds with the nobility. Win for the mages either way.
Also, it feels wrong to write this.
Mages contributing to the war effort is not unhead of. In fact, Wynne says it's the reason she didn't warn anyone of what Gaspard was planning to do.
And of course, attempts by the Templars to minimize their deployment would place them at odds with the nobility. Win for the mages either way.
Also, it feels wrong to write this.
Rofl, you're not wrong though. Actually, neither of you are. I'm pretty sure the templars outside of Ferelden would indeed try to keep the mages, but they'd ultimately fail. As was shown, they do buckle to outside pressure from nobility. It's them that fund the chantry that fund the templars after all.
Agreed, but I think it's safe to say that In Hushed Whispers was badly written, on every side.
That seems to be a common trend in this game. Need I remind people of Briala completely forgiving Celene just by showing the two an amulet.
And finally we come to a close. Whether you're a templar supporter or mage supporter, human supporter or hippie supporter, or moderate, we can all at least agree on one thing.
Bioware's writing sucks. And needs some major work for the next title.
That seems to be a common trend in this game. Need I remind people of Briala completely forgiving Celene just by showing the two an amulet.
That was bad writing, but I can't say I was surprised at it. After I read ME I assumed something fairly trivial would allow them to reunite and be seen as the "good" option.
If it were me I'll slap the **** outta her ****** for putting mages into a rebellion they cannot win and turn yourself in with the Imperium on top of that!! The same mother******* who enslaved elves and have the nerve to sell herself to them! Stupid sow....
It's like I said, no integrity. It's doubly worse when you remember she was basically a slave herself in Orlais, so for her to trust modern slavers that also enslaved elves long ago, it's just all around incredibly stupid and sickening.
And finally we come to a close. Whether you're a templar supporter or mage supporter, human supporter or hippie supporter, or moderate, we can all at least agree on one thing.
Bioware's writing sucks. And needs some major work for the next title.
Well, In Hushed Whispers is definitely one of the worse parts of the game. There are other parts that are significantly better.
Well, In Hushed Whispers is definitely one of the worse parts of the game. There are other parts that are significantly better.
There are, I just wish it wasn't so damn inconsistent.
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