993 réponses à ce sujet

[Colonelkillabee]

Why would they be interested in someone being cured of the Blight? This is literally anathema to their existence. If there is anything we learn about the Grey Wardens, is that they have a striking dedication to ignorance. If there is any part of that order that even tries to comprehend the Blight, it's a group that we have never heard of locked away in Weistahupt. Otherwise, it is a striking and dedicated ignorance of all things related to the Blight (they didn't even know about Broodmothers for sure until DA:O!), and an order that actively lies to their various levels of seniority (like a cult).
 
Given this striking and rampant ignorance, and given their single-minded obsession with their currently constituted mission, it makes total sense they would want to spend no time studying why the Blight could be cured, and instead send away the person cured (if not actually kill them) to maintain their ironclad hold on their basic lies.

They knew about it, read The Last Flight. It seems that modern Grey Wardens simply lost a lot of their knowledge. Broodmothers aren't that numerous either until a blight happens.

Anyway, it makes sense that they don't look into cures for the taint to me. Their order is about sacrifice. If people knew there was a cure, it'd be harder to get men dedicated to serve and stay serving for life, and especially to sacrifice themselves to kill an arch demon.

[Colonelkillabee]

Also, people should read that letter again:

http://dragonage.wik...ero_of_Ferelden

You're trying to keep them from going insane to the point that you need to kill yourselves fighting dark spawn. That is tied to the mutation and becoming a ghoul, as the more the taint spreads, the stronger the song becomes to you.

So, you're trying to stop the spread of the taint in you or at least significantly slow it. Not flat out cure the taint.

[Colonelkillabee]

It might be pointless when it comes to cornflakes though because he doesn't need your taint to have spread far to make you hear the calling evidently.

[Dean_the_Young]

It was pretty crap writing, that's for certain.  It gets even worse when you remember that she spent a significant portion of her life before joining the Grey Wardens as a sex slave.

 

"I was a slave and hated it so much I killed my master and ran away, then later in life started a war because I felt like my fellow mages were being treated as slaves in the Circle.  I think selling my fellow mages into slavery, err 'indentured servitude', now is a perfectly acceptable idea, because, uh....hmm.  Time travel? and reasons.  Yes.  Reasons.  And I think I'll be completely spineless about it when the guy I've sold myself to does horrific things and/or changes the deal at a whim."

 

I disagree that the change is crap writing- to me, it served the obvious point of reflecting failure and desperation of the ill-planned mage rebellion.

 

For those who never read the books, there is no real issue since this is their (player and PC's) first impression of Fiona, and it's all fair. But even for those who knew here at all through the books, Fiona had moved on from one thing to another by relying on luck and pluck, but rhetoric alone wasn't going to win the rebellion, and someone involved in the before was going to be needed to reflect the change from before and after. Of the crash of the lofty, unrealistic ambition of mage rebellion, and of once defiant, proud people having their noses ground by reality and resorting to desperation.

 

The weakness is in the transition without seeing the character development ourselves- but that's a consequence of not having the game focus on the war, which I doubt would be a terribly interesting game itself for most people. A book might have sufficed as well, but there is a case to stories where further stories are inferred, rather than told- and I can see an argument that the Mage Rebellion itself being one better left to the player's imagination. It leaves the player as the indirect witness to someone else's conflict, rather than involved by 'being' there as a reader- which can be it's own sort of story.

 

Think of soldiers who go to war and come back changed. Such a personality change is not arbitrary, or a lack of development- it's development we don't see, and can only assume, and it provides it's own unique perspective as we re-learn the person and try and understand who they've become, contrasted with who they expected to be.

 

 

The difference between the Fiona of Asunder and the Fiona of Inquisition isn't that she's a different person. It's that she's the same person who went and lost a war year after year and found herself in desperate straights. She's still quite capable of being over-confident and familiar when she feels in control- when she appears in Val Royeaux, after her recruitment- but that same person is also the one who was and would be desperate enough to resort to previously unthinking able things after losing a war.

 

Not seeing the war ourselves doesn't make it 'crap writing.'

[duckley]

The thing that bugs me most about Fiona is that she called for a vote and went to war with only a slim majority.

 

She did not take into account those who did not want to fight,  those who did not identify themselves as slaves... There were actually mages who supported moving forward with freedom via the work of Wynne and the Devine! 

 

The mages who voted against rebellion were rendered homeless, became at risk to lose their lives,  and likely had little or no ability or skill to live and manage in the outside world...especially in a world that is already very hostile and fearful of mages (and thanks Anders - you really helped to build even more fear)

 

Arguable, her desire to rebel caused more harm to more mages than the Circle did.

[Iakus]

The thing that bugs me most about Fiona is that she called for a vote and went to war with only a slim majority.

 

She did not take into account those who did not want to fight,  those who did not identify themselves as slaves... There were actually mages who supported moving forward with freedom via the work of Wynne and the Devine! 

 

The mages who voted against rebellion were rendered homeless, became at risk to lose their lives,  and likely had little or no ability or skill to live and manage in the outside world...especially in a world that is already very hostile and fearful of mages (and thanks Anders - you really helped to build even more fear)

 

Arguable, her desire to rebel caused more harm to more mages than the Circle did.

Quite a number who didn't go along with the war were actually killed by fellow mages as well.

[Xilizhra]

Quite a number who didn't go along with the war were actually killed by fellow mages as well.

And by that you mean "the one or two that Cole can actually verify," yes?

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 given their single-minded obsession with their currently constituted mission

That single minded obsession benefited Thedas  since they put on grave 4 old gods and and possibly another one.

[Secret Rare]

That's already what the Joining does.

Well it gives you the Blight and it gives you some form of immunity for 20 years or so.

 

There's archdemon blood in there , and we found out dragons have a natural resistance to the Blight , not immunity though.They get blighted but their body keep the Blight from spreading for a while.

If in 1000 years wardens haven't figured that out , it's just sad.

Bioware portrayal of factions is unrealistic when it comes to their competence on things in which they should be expert,they did this even with the merchant guild of Orzammar since those experts of Lyrium didn't know anything about it's red form.

It doesn't matter the time frame factions will remain incompetent because they need big reveals that only the player is permitted to uncover.

As for the joining it is known by now that the temporal immunity is related to the concentration of the taint  and not to the archdemon blood or the dragon blood.

[Hellion Rex]

Why would they be interested in someone being cured of the Blight? This is literally anathema to their existence. If there is anything we learn about the Grey Wardens, is that they have a striking dedication to ignorance. If there is any part of that order that even tries to comprehend the Blight, it's a group that we have never heard of locked away in Weistahupt. Otherwise, it is a striking and dedicated ignorance of all things related to the Blight (they didn't even know about Broodmothers for sure until DA:O!), and an order that actively lies to their various levels of seniority (like a cult).

 

Given this striking and rampant ignorance, and given their single-minded obsession with their currently constituted mission, it makes total sense they would want to spend no time studying why the Blight could be cured, and instead send away the person cured (if not actually kill them) to maintain their ironclad hold on their basic lies. 

Perhaps, but they are still all we have that can kill the Archdemons, as of now. In that regard, I let them stay in Orlais, for now. 

 

I feel like old things are stirring, and I would not be surprised if we see another Archdemon within the next few games. And I want every single asset possible to be able to slay those damn things.

[TK514]

 

 

*Dean's Usual Well Written Stuff*

 

 

I feel a ramble coming on.

 

First, it's time travel.  And not even 'time travel is the point of this story', which can be well written, but instead 'time travel as a random excuse'.  That's never going to be good, and DA:I is even worse because the time travel isn't even consistent around the world.  Oh no, it's just limited to some nebulous area around Redcliffe because they needed it to be.  Frankly, in my opinion, they'd have been better off dumping the time travel aspect altogether and had someone from the Ferelden monarchy show up at IHQ with a request for the Inquisition to assist with a Tevinter problem in Redcliffe instead.  The hellscape future could have been a Fade illusion due to all the magic being thrown around the Hinterlands or some such.

 

As for Fiona.  I get what you're saying about the people who aren't aware of her characterization in the books having no reference to know Fiona is anything but some spineless loser who wilts away at her new master's slightest harsh word, and I agree there.  And you are well aware of how I feel about the character of Fiona from the books.  Honestly, she was written terribly there, too.

 

It's the jarring shift from writer's pet who can mouth off to anyone and who succeeds in spite of common sense or realistic storytelling in every instance to the 'you used a harsh tone with me so all my arguments are invalid' whiner in Redcliffe that begins to make me question the quality of the writing in this specific case.  There's a consistency issue.  You see it as the result of off camera hardship beating her down and so on, while I wonder why, since she's certainly never been self-aware enough to recognize when her ideas are bad before, she would suddenly (to our perception) start now?  Why would she ever think or admit she could lose, since her go-to tactic is 'be a ****** and fail your way to success'?

 

To be clear, I'm not against the removal of her writer's pet status.  I just think it could have been written in a way where she finally receives her long overdue failure while remaining consistent with her insane 'blindly stagger forward while being cocky/grating to the point of caricature, and damn the consequences to everyone else' characterization from the books.  Instead of whimpering off into a corner the moment Alexius said a harsh word to her, I'd rather have had something like her continuing to mouth off to him until he grew bored with her insubordination and had her physically restrained or removed, preferably by other members of her rebellion who had been convinced to join his employ.  In my mind, such a scene would have served several purposes at once; She would still have been the brash idiot from the books, there would have been direct demonstration that Alexius had people infiltrating the Mage Rebellion beyond a vague and easily missed reference (thus explaining a some other inconsistencies with the whole mage plotline), and it would have been a nice start to demonstrating that her immunity from negative consequences was a thing of the past.

 

That last is, unfortunately, something they never follow through on, which is just another example of how poor the writing is around the character.  Surely the discovery that the Venatori had been murdering the Tranquil should have been important enough to reveal to the Mage Rebellion?  Need something to judge her for?  I'd say the fate of the Tranquil under her watch is more than reason enough to bring her up as unfit to lead, if not outright negligence.  (As an aside, isn't it odd how, for all the whining about how Tranquility is evil and the cure is the greatest thing since Betty White, the mages were certainly quick to abandon the Tranquil and ignore their disappearance?)  Surely Fiona's complete failure to safeguard anyone under her care should have been enough to at least cause the survivors to come to their senses and appoint someone else as their representative.

 

Long story short, I think it's poorly written not because Fiona has ever been well written, but because I feel the inconsistencies around her are simply too jarring, and, to me, their attempt at the character evolution you describe simply fell flat.

[Xilizhra]

That last is, unfortunately, something they never follow through on, which is just another example of how poor the writing is around the character.  Surely the discovery that the Venatori had been murdering the Tranquil should have been important enough to reveal to the Mage Rebellion?  Need something to judge her for?  I'd say the fate of the Tranquil under her watch is more than reason enough to bring her up as unfit to lead, if not outright negligence.  (As an aside, isn't it odd how, for all the whining about how Tranquility is evil and the cure is the greatest thing since Betty White, the mages were certainly quick to abandon the Tranquil and ignore their disappearance?)  Surely Fiona's complete failure to safeguard anyone under her care should have been enough to at least cause the survivors to come to their senses and appoint someone else as their representative.

A. The mages only knew that a cure for Tranquility existed, not what it was.

B. Fiona is already no longer the leader of the rebellion after In Hushed Whispers, and says as much.

[TK514]

A. The mages only knew that a cure for Tranquility existed, not what it was.

B. Fiona is already no longer the leader of the rebellion after In Hushed Whispers, and says as much.

 

A.  How does that explain why they abandoned the Tranquil?

B.  She's still their representative, and tells you that they continue to come to her with their grievances.  After her complete and utter failure at leading them, she should have been a pariah.

[Xilizhra]

A.  How does that explain why they abandoned the Tranquil?

The actual explanation for this is extremely poor writing, the kind that thinks it makes sense for the Tranquil to have been largely abandoned by the rebel mages, then killed and turned into oculara and have their skulls stored in Redcliffe. Or the idea that the Tranquil did follow the rebels, then got all killed and turned into oculara in the same village; it's not clear which one it is, but the first makes marginally more sense. However, leaving the Tranquil behind is not necessarily a horrible decision by the rebels, as they could have reasonably thought the Chantry would keep them around; if nothing else, the Tranquil are valuable resources, and the Chantry would probably keep them better than the constantly mobile and threatened rebels would. Of course, the Venatori ganked them all... somehow.

 

 

B.  She's still their representative, and tells you that they continue to come to her with their grievances.  After her complete and utter failure at leading them, she should have been a pariah.

Well, I won't deny that In Hushed Whispers was badly written.

[Hellion Rex]

A. The mages only knew that a cure for Tranquility existed, not what it was.

Pretty sure Wynne released the details to all the First Enchanters of Southern Thedas prior to returning to Val Royeaux. And even then, the group discussed the contents of the cure openly with the Divine and the whole audience when they first returned with Pharamond.

[Qun00]

No storm, don't worry. I was just honest to God perplexed by the existence of this dillemma and that David Gaider actually gave his input on it which could be summed as "Up to you."

Tumblr...

That would be Gaider's way of saying "I don't give a ****". He gave the same response when someone asked him about elven pubic hair.

Why would they be interested in someone being cured of the Blight? This is literally anathema to their existence. If there is anything we learn about the Grey Wardens, is that they have a striking dedication to ignorance. If there is any part of that order that even tries to comprehend the Blight, it's a group that we have never heard of locked away in Weistahupt. Otherwise, it is a striking and dedicated ignorance of all things related to the Blight (they didn't even know about Broodmothers for sure until DA:O!), and an order that actively lies to their various levels of seniority (like a cult).

Given this striking and rampant ignorance, and given their single-minded obsession with their currently constituted mission, it makes total sense they would want to spend no time studying why the Blight could be cured, and instead send away the person cured (if not actually kill them) to maintain their ironclad hold on their basic lies.

Which is why I wonder whether the Order actually approves of the HoF's quest to end the Calling. Do they even WANT a cure for the Taint?

[Medhia_Nox]

The actual explanation for this is extremely poor writing, the kind that thinks it makes sense for the Tranquil to have been largely abandoned by the rebel mages, then killed and turned into oculara and have their skulls stored in Redcliffe. Or the idea that the Tranquil did follow the rebels, then got all killed and turned into oculara in the same village; it's not clear which one it is, but the first makes marginally more sense. However, leaving the Tranquil behind is not necessarily a horrible decision by the rebels, as they could have reasonably thought the Chantry would keep them around; if nothing else, the Tranquil are valuable resources, and the Chantry would probably keep them better than the constantly mobile and threatened rebels would. Of course, the Venatori ganked them all... somehow.

 

 

Well, I won't deny that In Hushed Whispers was badly written.

 

Do you think oppressed people are above doing wrong and oppressing other, weaker groups?  
 

For me.. the selfishness displayed by the mages totally explains why they also abandoned another marginalized group to fend for itself. 

 

That they also happen to be sold to the group that slaughters the other marginalized group... is just a beautiful indictment of their incompetent leader. 

[Xilizhra]

Do you think oppressed people are above doing wrong and oppressing other, weaker groups?  
 

For me.. the selfishness displayed by the mages totally explains why they also abandoned another marginalized group to fend for itself. 

 

That they also happen to be sold to the group that slaughters the other marginalized group... is just a beautiful indictment of their incompetent leader. 

Given that the Tranquil presumably did not vote for the rebellion, leaving them behind seems to be more fair for everyone. The Chantry mutilated them, the Chantry should look after them.

[Hellion Rex]

Given that the Tranquil presumably did not vote for the rebellion, leaving them behind seems to be more fair for everyone. The Chantry mutilated them, the Chantry should look after them.

Wow. The mages were so gung-ho about reversing the Rite and caring for the Tranquil and now you simply leave them to their fate?

[Hellion Rex]

Do you think oppressed people are above doing wrong and oppressing other, weaker groups?  
 

For me.. the selfishness displayed by the mages totally explains why they also abandoned another marginalized group to fend for itself. 

 

That they also happen to be sold to the group that slaughters the other marginalized group... is just a beautiful indictment of their incompetent leader. 

Quite. Being a marginalized group hardly precludes said group from practicing prejudice and oppressing others.

[Reznore57]

Given that the Tranquil presumably did not vote for the rebellion, leaving them behind seems to be more fair for everyone. The Chantry mutilated them, the Chantry should look after them.

 

Sort of agree with this , except the circumstance of the rebellion made it unlikely.

Most tranquils were in circles living with mages and templars , the whole thing turned into a battlefield , so you can't expect the Chantry to be able to step in rescue tranquils , when they just lost the people who could actually do that.

 

It makes sense for rebel mages to take care of tranquil especially when one of the reason things went balistic was the whole "tranquility cure".

It seems some cared more about the scandal generated by the cure , than the actual fate of tranquils.

[Dean_the_Young]

Given that the Tranquil presumably did not vote for the rebellion, leaving them behind seems to be more fair for everyone. The Chantry mutilated them, the Chantry should look after them.

 

Mages choose most of the people who become Tranquil, Templars fewer, and the Chantry not at all to our knowledge. Why shouldn't mages still be responsible as well?

[TK514]

Given that the Tranquil presumably did not vote for the rebellion, leaving them behind seems to be more fair for everyone. The Chantry mutilated them, the Chantry should look after them.

 

Doesn't matter if the Tranquil voted for the Rebellion.  A lot of mages didn't vote for the Rebellion, and the Tranquil ARE mages.  That's kind of the point of the entire Tranquil issue.

 

And the Chantry didn't make anyone Tranquil.  The Rite is entirely within the jurisdiction of the Circles, and DA:O makes it very clear that mages are not above making their own Tranquil.  Irving was more than ready to do just that to Jowan.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Didn't Minaeve say te tranquil were abandoned because they couldn't feed themselves and they would just be dead weight?

[Hellion Rex]

Didn't Minaeve say te tranquil were abandoned because they couldn't feed themselves and they would just be dead weight?

They're not mentally deficient, so I doubt that's true. If they can have the precision and clarity to do some of the best enchanting in Thedas, I'm pretty sure they can feed themselves.

 

Edit: Changed a word to make it sound a little better.