74 réponses à ce sujet

[Linkenski]

I can give you my 2 cents.

 

A good antagonist is even more relateable than your protagonist. Saren is a good example. We understood why he had chosen to do what he did given the circumstances he was caught up in and what happened to him even if he was a renegade badass, while Shepard all we know is that he has some drive to do what he does best to save the day and complete his mission and he was relateable in the role-playing sense as we define his character with dialogue-choices but not in the plot-sense in that he's basically a static brick that has no clear inner motivation or backstory that makes you understand what exactly makes him so competent and eager to save the day.

 

On a side-note the Torfan/Akuze backstories was a great attempt at grounding Shepard a bit despite of him being a typical power-fantasy hero who's just amazing for arbitrary reasons. I would've prefered some more opportunities to show him as a wounded guy with a scarred emotional state, for example via romances.

 

But yeah, back to the point. Antagonists should be the antithesis to our protagonist and we should understand why they're against what the protagonist is trying to accomplish and they should feel threatening and competent enough to be a real danger to the protagonist too.

[Draining Dragon]

I can give you my 2 cents.
 
A good antagonist is even more relateable than your protagonist. Saren is a good example. We understood why he had chosen to do what he did given the circumstances he was caught up in and what happened to him even if he was a renegade badass, while Shepard all we know is that he has some drive to do what he does best to save the day and complete his mission and he was relateable in the role-playing sense as we define his character with dialogue-choices but not in the plot-sense in that he's basically a static brick that has no clear inner motivation or backstory that makes you understand what exactly makes him so competent and eager to save the day.

So much this.

Another good example is Magneto. There's a reason some people consider him to be one of the best comic book villains. He has such a compelling backstory and solid motivation for his actions that you can't help but sympathize with his cause, even as you acknowledge that he is indeed the villain and needs to be stopped.

[Linkenski]

So much this.

Another good example is Magneto. There's a reason some people consider him to be one of the best comic book villains. He has such a compelling backstory and solid motivation for his actions that you can't help but sympathize with his cause, even as you acknowledge that he is indeed the villain and needs to be stopped.

Similarly yet perhaps a silly example to some; Vegeta from DBZ. People usually like him better than Goku because you can sympathise with him. He's driven by a need to compete and be the best but Goku is this unstoppable force and no one knows how he can keep surpassing everything and everyone and Vegeta's pride is completely destroyed by Goku which makes him do shitty and cowardly things just to beat him until he eventually learns that he only loses because he's fighting for the sake of being better than others and to compare himself while Goku is just fighting because he loves it and he has a compulsive need for it, which is very relateable to you in real life because you recognize that sense of being insecure and thinking you must compare yourself to others while really, the most succesful people focus more on improving themselves for their own sake and want.

[Master Warder Z_]

There's a reason some people consider him to be one of the best comic book villains.

 

Not me.

 

That said him vs Red Skull was awesome.

[Killdren88]

No villains I wanna sympathise with. I hate that trope. Give me someone to hate and needs to die. I don't want to understand them or their motives or reasons what I hate most is coming here seeing tgrwada of people defending the villain its stupid.

[slimgrin]

No villains I wanna sympathise with. I hate that trope. Give me someone to hate and needs to die. I don't want to understand them or their motives or reasons what I hate most is coming here seeing tgrwada of people defending the villain its stupid.

 

Pfff. That's not a trope, it's good writing. We have dozens and dozens of the other kind, evil for the sake of it villains. I'm over it. Saren is a good example. There was more to his motivations than at first glance. 

[Quarian Master Race]

Colonel Radec

Guy was magnificient. He also did the dirty work himself eventually, and I thoroughly enjoyed getting my ass kicked about 50 times as he mocked me.

Hell, just give me that filtered voice, articulate diction and controlled aggression on a malicious Golo (from Ascension) type quarian or something  . I'd probably end up wanting to romance him more than kill him, but still.

[Master Warder Z_]

Colonel Radec

 

Supreme Commander Gihren Zabi

 

Not a soldier but politician. None the less the man is both a political and military genius of the caliber you'd read about in a history book citing Alexander, Julius Caesar and Hannibal, he's arrogant, cold and utterly relentless. But at the same time he has a cult of personality flowing around him by his own people, he directs their military, he leads their efforts for freedom and subjugation of Earth, a master orator, world class education and a naturally high super genius level IQ in the 240s and you have a man simply put.

 

Was born to rule the human race.

 

And he knows it.

[Pee Jae]

Again... this:

[Linkenski]

No villains I wanna sympathise with. I hate that trope. Give me someone to hate and needs to die. I don't want to understand them or their motives or reasons what I hate most is coming here seeing tgrwada of people defending the villain its stupid.

I dunno when this has even happened. You make it sound like you're supposed to love the villain or something. Sure, MGS3 has it and I guess Naruto (**** story) has it, but it's not really a popular trope to have, actually.

[Shechinah]

No villains I wanna sympathise with. I hate that trope. Give me someone to hate and needs to die. I don't want to understand them or their motives or reasons what I hate most is coming here seeing tgrwada of people defending the villain its stupid.

You can understand a villain's characterization and motivation but still have no fond feelings towards them. I prefer a villain to to be a character in their own right rather than a target for the player character to aim at.

 

Example; I could see where the Illusive Man was coming from to a degree but I had no fond feelings towards the man and did not sympathise with him like other people did.  

[9TailsFox]

Yes i want awesome antagonist/rival. I don't some evil muhahaha destroy all galaxy enemy. What I want is this. No super omnipotent enemy, no good or evil, just people. Every villain is a hero in his own story.

 

"Legend of galactic heroes" Yang Wenli and Reinhard von Lohengramm.

[Killdren88]

You can understand a villain's characterization and motivation but still have no fond feelings towards them. I prefer a villain to to be a character in their own right rather than a target for the player character to aim at.

 

Example; I could see where the Illusive Man was coming from to a degree but I had no fond feelings towards the man and did not sympathise with him like other people did.  

 

Fair enough I just don't want a Scene where the Antag is holding a chest wound and is slowly bleeding out with the Protag looking down at them going "Perhaps in another life we could have been friends" BS.

[Shechinah]

I just don't want a Scene where the Antag is holding a chest wound and is slowly bleeding out with the Protag looking down at them going "Perhaps in another life we could have been friends" BS.

 

That I agree with.
 

[9TailsFox]

Fair enough I just don't want a Scene where the Antag is holding a chest wound and is slowly bleeding out with the Protag looking down at them going "Perhaps in another life we could have been friends" BS.

SWTOR imperial agent spoilers

Spoiler

Well I think ending was good. kiss of death 

[In Exile]

Pfff. That's not a trope, it's good writing. We have dozens and dozens of the other kind, evil for the sake of it villains. I'm over it. Saren is a good example. There was more to his motivations than at first glance. 

 

Unless you made the mistake of reading his backstory novel, in which case it basically turns out he's just kind of a dick, a racist, and a Turian supremacist. Ignoring that novel, I don't think the game does a very good job of selling the idea that Saren is going along with this to save civilization. 

[Jorji Costava]

I'm not sure I follow what I should be taking away from the interview? The position articulated by Col. Mathieu is clearly just a justification for torture and massacres. 

 

The point of the interview was simply to provide a sense of the kind of person Mathieu was in the film; I think this kind of character makes for a villain that could be plausible within the context of ME:A (if you're entering someone else's space, they will probably want you out, and they will probably want someone like Mathieu in charge of making that happen); at the same time, he's different from most of the antagonists we've seen in ME:A up to this, most of whom where either out-and-out evil, pursuing some crazy rogue agenda, indoctrinated, or some combination of the three. Mathieu, by contrast, makes no reference to any grand scale ideology and has no ulterior motives beyond the desire to defeat the FLN. The closest we've seen in ME would probably be Tela Vasir, who IMO was the series' best antagonist.

 

The French military's use of torture helped them win in the short term but ultimately contributed to their eventual defeat; the discovery that the French were using these tactics eroded civilian support for the war (perhaps not too different from the effect of My Lai on the Vietnam war). The Battle of Algiers remains one of the most controversial films ever made, not because it seemed to support torture but because it seemed to support terrorism; director Gillo Pontecorvo was a Marxist and anti-colonialist, and his heart was clearly with the Algerian independence movement.

[Shechinah]

SWTOR imperial agent spoilers

 

That sentiment was optional, though.

[wizardryforever]

Honestly, I think ME1 does a passable job of convincing people that Saren's motivations at least were good, even if the conclusions that he drew stemmed from his indoctrination. But you're right, reading Revelations will absolutely destroy any sympathy you may have had for Saren. He's everything that Anderson claims he is, and worse.

 

But honestly if he was right about the Reapers (which of course, he wasn't) then his approach would have saved more lives than have ever existed, as he claims. That's just not a choice that any except the most Renegade of Shepards would have actually tried to do though, at least not without heavy indoctrination.

[Arcian]

No villains I wanna sympathise with. I hate that trope. Give me someone to hate and needs to die. I don't want to understand them or their motives or reasons what I hate most is coming here seeing tgrwada of people defending the villain its stupid.

It's impossible to write an unsympathetic villain that's also three-dimensional. What you're asking for is a moustache twirler who laughs evilly while kicking dogs and stealing candy from children. Besides being boring, it's also unbelievably trite.

[iM3GTR]

...who laughs evilly while kicking dogs and stealing candy from children. Besides being boring, it's also unbelievably trite.

This is what the reapers should have been...

[Arcian]

This is what the reapers should have been...

Boring and unbelieavbly trite?

[iM3GTR]

Boring and unbelieavbly trite?

No. Literally stealing chocolate and kicking dogs.
It's better than killing organics to stop them being killed by synthetics. That wasn't very well written (especially seeing as it was suddenly presented in the last 10 minutes)

[Arcian]

No. Literally stealing chocolate and kicking dogs.
It's better than killing organics to stop them being killed by synthetics. That wasn't very well written (especially seeing as it was suddenly presented in the last 10 minutes)

Watching Reapers wearing monocles and top hats twirl their moustaches while laughing evilly has a certain charm to it, I suppose.

[9TailsFox]

Watching Reapers wearing monocles and top hats twirl their moustaches while laughing evilly has a certain charm to it, I suppose.

Well you asked for this.

Spoiler