158 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantdeathrobot]

I'm in favor of utterly scrapping Paragon and Renegade myself. Not only does a Karma Meter (which is was for all intents and purposes) have no place in a universe that doesn't run on black and white like Star Wars, but they couldn't even keep it consistent. ME1 Renegade was a racist douche, ME2 Renegade was a one-liner spouting anti-hero, ME3 Renegade was a total ******* who shot friends in the back. 

 

A karma meter only holds back roleplaying. I don't need the game to tell me I get +10 Good Guy points for doing X action. Let the game actually show me the consequences so that I can determine if the action is good or bad.

 

Now, that doesn't mean turning the setting into a morass of flavorless grey where there are literally no good or bad decisions ever. But P/R needs to go. Dragon Age doesn't have it, and plainly doesn't need it since I feel it had much more mileage out of its moral conflicts than Mass Effect did, since it could freely inject some nuance into them without having to associate option A with boy scouts and option B with naughty kids.

[straykat]

I'm in favor of utterly scrapping Paragon and Renegade myself. Not only does a Karma Meter (which is was for all intents and purposes) have no place in a universe that doesn't run on black and white like Star Wars, but they couldn't even keep it consistent. ME1 Renegade was a racist douche, ME2 Renegade was a one-liner spouting anti-hero, ME3 Renegade was a total ******* who shot friends in the back. 

 

A karma meter only holds back roleplaying. I don't need the game to tell me I get +10 Good Guy points for doing X action. Let the game actually show me the consequences so that I can determine if the action is good or bad.

 

Now, that doesn't mean turning the setting into a morass of flavorless grey where there are literally no good or bad decisions ever. But P/R needs to go. Dragon Age doesn't have it, and plainly doesn't need it since I feel it had much more mileage out of its moral conflicts than Mass Effect did, since it could freely inject some nuance into them without having to associate option A with boy scouts and option B with naughty kids.

 

I still like the one-liner spouting anti-hero though It was entertaining. I'd be fine if that was all the games.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I still like the one-liner spouting anti-hero though It was entertaining. I'd be fine if that was all the games.

 

Oh, I agree. If you're going to be a jerk, at least be entertaining while doing so. But sadly that was mostly limited to ME2.

 

In place of the P/R system, they could take cues from Pillars of Eternity and have a Reputation system where your actions and dialog choices are associated with some attitudes; diplomatic, honest, clever, stoic, cruel, etc. Not have it determine your morality like in Mass Effect or take over dialog like in DA2, but just give you a rough indication of what type of dialog your character uses the most and have the narrative acknowledge that from time to time.

[Linkenski]

Oh, I agree. If you're going to be a jerk, at least be entertaining while doing so. But sadly that was mostly limited to ME2.

 

In place of the P/R system, they could take cues from Pillars of Eternity and have a Reputation system where your actions and dialog choices are associated with some attitudes; diplomatic, honest, clever, stoic, cruel, etc. Not have it determine your morality like in Mass Effect or take over dialog like in DA2, but just give you a rough indication of what type of dialog your character uses the most and have the narrative acknowledge that from time to time.

This. Shepard was badass as a renegade in ME2 but in ME3 he's both automatically renegade but they portray it as if he's being heroic at the same time, turning him into a moron.

 

"This isn't about strategy or tactics -- this is about survival! ... We fight or we die!"

 

"It'll be a hell of a short war if they don't!"

 

"You're either with me or against me, there's nothing grey about that."

 

...Made me groan so much.

[Ahriman]

Oh, I agree. If you're going to be a jerk, at least be entertaining while doing so. But sadly that was mostly limited to ME2.

 

Well, can't say that shooting Mordin was boring. If not tragic queen part I'd take ME3 Renegade as favourite.

 

 

In place of the P/R system, they could take cues from Pillars of Eternity and have a Reputation system where your actions and dialog choices are associated with some attitudes; diplomatic, honest, clever, stoic, cruel, etc. Not have it determine your morality like in Mass Effect or take over dialog like in DA2, but just give you a rough indication of what type of dialog your character uses the most and have the narrative acknowledge that from time to time.

This something from world of ideal RPGs. PoE version while good in theory didn't really mean much in the end. Bioware struggles to reflect major consequences, not even mentioning something more subtle.

[vbibbi]

I still like the one-liner spouting anti-hero though It was entertaining. I'd be fine if that was all the games.

ME2 renegade is like a mixture of purple and red Hawke.

 

One of my favorite moments is in Mordin's loyalty mission where we can shoot the gas by the krogan warrior who's speechifying in the stereotypical RPG villain way.

 

https://youtu.be/-PjTuSQNLI4?t=117

[Giantdeathrobot]

 

ME2 renegade is like a mixture of purple and red Hawke.

 

One of my favorite moments is in Mordin's loyalty mission where we can shoot the gas by the krogan warrior who's speechifying in the stereotypical RPG villain way.

 

https://youtu.be/-PjTuSQNLI4?t=117

 

 

I did that on literally every single run of ME2, including the one where I was pure blue boy 100% Paragon.

 

It's like the game wants you to do it. The guy goes on spewing his nonsense for a good minute otherwise, with the icon tempting you all the while...

[KaiserShep]

I did that on literally every single run of ME2, including the one where I was pure blue boy 100% Paragon.

 

It's like the game wants you to do it. The guy goes on spewing his nonsense for a good minute otherwise, with the icon tempting you all the while...

 

 

It's kind of tough though, because his ranting is actually kind of funny. He goes on about eating the salarians' eggs and such, but I'm wary of letting him get that far because it then cuts to the combat and there's no funny payoff. 

[Shechinah]

It's kind of tough though, because his ranting is actually kind of funny. He goes on about eating the salarians' eggs and such, but I'm wary of letting him get that far because it then cuts to the combat and there's no funny payoff. 

 

I feel bad to an extent about interrupting his speech since he has clearly put a lot of effort and practice into it. Heh, I can imaging him launching into it at the smallest provocation like someone asking him if he has plans next week.

[vbibbi]

I feel bad to an extent about interrupting his speech since he has clearly put a lot of effort and practice into it. Heh, I can imaging him launching into at the smallest provocation like someone asking him if he has plans next week.

His henchkrogan were probably relieved he was interrupted. They had heard it so many times by that point.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's kind of tough though, because his ranting is actually kind of funny. He goes on about eating the salarians' eggs and such, but I'm wary of letting him get that far because it then cuts to the combat and there's no funny payoff. 

 

Eat their eggs as a delicacy!

[SlottsMachine]

This. Shepard was badass as a renegade in ME2 but in ME3 he's both automatically renegade but they portray it as if he's being heroic at the same time, turning him into a moron.

 

"This isn't about strategy or tactics -- this is about survival! ... We fight or we die!"

 

"It'll be a hell of a short war if they don't!"

 

"You're either with me or against me, there's nothing grey about that."

 

...Made me groan so much.

 

Those lines aren't even that bad compared to some of Shep's other lines (ie. comparing the Genophage to the First Contact War.) At least those lines sound like something a military grunt would say. Shepard isn't Yang Wenli. 

 

And even Yang gave some crappy speeches.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[iM3GTR]

Those lines aren't even that bad compared to some of Shep's other lines (ie. comparing the Genophage to the First Contact War.) At least those lines sound like something a military grunt would say, Shepard isn't Yang Wen-li.

Shepard's best line is the 'Can Asari really meld with each other?'
Then Liara's just like 'What? Are you being serious?'

I know that wasn't a speech but still.

[Hazegurl]

 ME3 Renegade was a total ******* who shot friends in the back. 

I think shooting Mordin was one of the most heartbreaking moments in the game and I'm glad they added it. My Shepard wholeheartedly believed in not curing the Krogan and no matter what I said Mordin had his own opinion. I couldn't just Paragon or Renegade speech him into stopping. I either had to let him do it or kill him because his conviction was that strong.  I absolutely loved BW for backing me into a corner like that.

[In Exile]

I get you, but I'm not sure Geralt stumbling into conveniently world-changing events is any better than the Inquisitor being the right wo/man in the wrong place and then seeking out ways to do their job, except as window dressing. As far as I see it, The Witcher is clearly a power fantasy; not as much the the most egregious examples such as Bethesda games, but about as much as any Bioware game. Besides, even if Geralt isn't a leader, there are times he might as well be, such as when he is instrumental to the Mage underground's success and Triss defers to him in a matter of great importance to the organization.

And that's not a bad thing. It's how RPGs work. No one wants to play as Soldier no. 14957 as he marches all day, fights people once a month, and dies in a ditch in the Fourth Battle of Nowhere, Alaska. Unless you play games like This War of Mine, I guess, where depowering the player for gameplay and reality's sake is the point.

Indeed, Dragon Age 2 might be a cautionary tale on the subject. It's one of those RPGs that empowers players the least. The results are known.

And DA2 does empower the player. Just in the opposite way of Geralt. That's a game where being awesome at killing DOESN'T lead to great story outcomes BECAUSE you don't get a say in them.

[Giantdeathrobot]

And DA2 does empower the player. Just in the opposite way of Geralt. That's a game where being awesome at killing DOESN'T lead to great story outcomes BECAUSE you don't get a say in them.

 

And there's a valid message here, I think. Violence doesn't solve everything, and being awesome (especially at killing stuff) doesn't mean you can solve every problem you come across.

 

Problem is, RPGs are a bad place to convey such a message, because the entire genre lives or dies by the freedom, and thus power, given to the player.

[Fishy]

It's going to be tough to top Shepard. He was like space Jesus. So I don't worry too much about this. ALl I care about is feeling connected to the protagonist that I control.

 

hell my character could simply be some average soldier in the army. If I feel connected to my character.. I really don't care if he's not some kind of god.

 

It would be funny to play some kind of hero that nobody really know about. But you're often at the big events and your action determine what will happens with the bigger picture. An unknown force of good. You don't take any credit.. but you seriously added weight to the balance.

[Ahriman]

hell my character could simply be some average soldier in the army. If I feel connected to my character.. I really don't care if he's not some kind of god.

I don't think it's very likely. It looks more Bioware plans to make some sort of James Cook character, aka captain explorer, except you don't get eaten by locals after shooting them.

[vbibbi]

And there's a valid message here, I think. Violence doesn't solve everything, and being awesome (especially at killing stuff) doesn't mean you can solve every problem you come across.

 

Problem is, RPGs are a bad place to convey such a message, because the entire genre lives or dies by the freedom, and thus power, given to the player.

In the current incarnation of RPGs sure, but if there were a return to a more skills-based system with dialogue and skill checks as alternatives to straight combat, it could be done. I'm not expecting that any time soon, but it's a nice thought.

 

Imagine purple Hawke talking Meredith out of existence like in Planescape...

[Laughing_Man]

I don't think it's very likely. It looks more Bioware plans to make some sort of James Cook character, aka captain explorer, except you don't get eaten by locals after shooting them.

 

To be fair, usually locals of this particular brand tended to eat you no matter if you shot them or not.

They were just curious if you taste good, it wasn't personal or anything...

[blahblahblah]

In the current incarnation of RPGs sure, but if there were a return to a more skills-based system with dialogue and skill checks as alternatives to straight combat, it could be done. I'm not expecting that any time soon, but it's a nice thought.

 

Imagine purple Hawke talking Meredith out of existence like in Planescape...

Too bad Planescape was never been successful financially despite being a great RPG.

[GoldenGail3]

Whatever they do is fine with meh.

[Mdizzletr0n]

In the current incarnation of RPGs sure, but if there were a return to a more skills-based system with dialogue and skill checks as alternatives to straight combat, it could be done. I'm not expecting that any time soon, but it's a nice thought.
 
Imagine purple Hawke talking Meredith out of existence like in Planescape...

That would involve stats and numbers. Most ME players aren't going to want that.

[Linkenski]

Those lines aren't even that bad compared to some of Shep's other lines (ie. comparing the Genophage to the First Contact War.) At least those lines sound like something a military grunt would say. Shepard isn't Yang Wenli. 

 

And even Yang gave some crappy speeches.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I'm disappointed I'm the only one who takes issue with those lines. I mean, when you think them through they all seem really ignorant and unfitting -- worst of all they're totally empty platitudes.

[wright1978]

This. Shepard was badass as a renegade in ME2 but in ME3 he's both automatically renegade but they portray it as if he's being heroic at the same time, turning him into a moron.

 

"This isn't about strategy or tactics -- this is about survival! ... We fight or we die!"

 

"It'll be a hell of a short war if they don't!"

 

"You're either with me or against me, there's nothing grey about that."

 

...Made me groan so much.

 

Bolded is my most hated line in ME3. Ellen Ripley Aliens quote always pops into my mind when i think of it 'Did IQ's just drop sharply while i was away'