266 réponses à ce sujet

[midnight tea]

Isn't funny how those who complain about "political correctness" are the first to bring it up?

I didn't realise being black and "PC" went hand in hand.

I seriously wish you people would p*ss off with your need to turn everything into a political or social issue. This is a game forum. You are just as bad as the political correctness you bash.

 

I'm at the point of despising people who complain at political correctness more these days.

 

It's a cheap way to try and earn oneself some respect ("oooh, look at meee! I'm so politically incorrect! I'm so brave and sh*t!"), while the term itself is like a smelly sock nobody wants to claim ownership of. People mostly bring it up when it's convenient for them and it's no better than calling the other side a nazi, since calling someone "politically correct" is mostly intended to either shut people up or make them look bad.

[straykat]

What exactly is incoherent there?

 

If these settings are supposed to be full of different nation states and regions, then they wouldn't be melting pots. They would have national identities and their families wouldn't have explored too much to make a big difference. Not yet. They aren't modern worlds, like an America or similar areas. If you want a place like that, then design a cosmopolitan area first. Not the other way around. If you're designing an approximation of medieval England or Italy or what have you, then simply stick to the idea. That is what is "coherent".

 

And I say this as someone who's mixed and dark myself. I find it disingenuous. Just like it'd be silly if the shows my mom watched that take place in Thailand were suddenly full of people from Finland. Just to appease the small group of Finnish in Thailand. lol.

[Heimdall]

With the wide expansion of Empire during its glory days, political marriages and all the conquering and slavery it is inevitable that some of the Tevenes would be light-skinned, same way we can find people from Middle Eastern areas today that are light-skinned/haired due to slavery times during Ottoman Empire (https://en.wikipedia..._Ottoman_Empire)
 
That's not the issue though. The issue is that Dutch makes it sound as if any Tevene or Tevinter magister that is dark-skinned is somehow wrong.

I thought the issue was that the majority of Tevinter's we've seen have been quite pale and that we're apparently now being told that they are in fact the exception.

[PapaCharlie9]

Lmao what? Halward, Krem, Fenris, and various concept art...

 

You forgot Coryphish.

[KaiserShep]

I can't believe this is a topic. A lot of characters in previous games were basically recycled assets anyway, especially in DA:O. So the people from the magical fictional version of the Roman Empire is multicolored. Notify the Shaperate! Surely the paragons will soil their knickers over it

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If these settings are supposed to be full of different nation states and regions, then they wouldn't be melting pots. They would have national identities and their families wouldn't have explored too much to make a big difference. Not yet. They aren't modern worlds, like an America or similar areas. If you want a place like that, then design a cosmopolitan area first. Not the other way around. If you're designing an approximation of medieval England or Italy or what have you, then simply stick to the idea. That is what is "coherent".

 

And I say this as someone who's mixed and dark myself. I find it disingenuous. Just like it'd be silly if the shows my mom watched that take place in Thailand were suddenly full of people from Finland. Just to appease the small group of Finnish in Thailand. lol.

Thedas was a melting pot at one point though, back when the Tevinter Imperium ruled all of it. After the Imperium lost control of most of Thedas, that's when the various nations formed their own identities. And to be fair, all the nations have aspects of modern civilization in them. Nationalism for example wasn't really a thing until the 1700s, and yet in Thedas even commoners in rural areas have a sense of nationalism.

[BansheeOwnage]

People from Rivain were always black. Isabela in DAO and DA2 was black.

Hmm... She never seemed black to me. More olive, like from the Mediterranean.

 

What does Fenris being an elf has to do with anything?
 

Because he has different genetics than the human Tevinters.

 

 
Yeaaah, I have to disagree;

https://i.ytimg.com/...xresdefault.jpg

Well, that Hawke is very pale. What about concept art of Fenris?

[midnight tea]

If these settings are supposed to be full of different nation states and regions, then they wouldn't be melting pots. They would have national identities and their families wouldn't have explored too much to make a big difference. Not yet. They aren't modern worlds, like an America or similar areas. If you're designing an approximation of medieval England or Italy or what have you, then simply stick to the idea. That is what "coherent". Consistency.

 

Thing is Thedas is not a perfect approximation of "medieval England or Italy". Show me medieval England or Italy with Church ruled predominantly by matriarchy, relative equality between sexes and writers printing books and using paper instead of vellum or people inventing steam engine (Bianca). Not to even mention the whole "Fade and advanced magical civilization on bones of which people have built their own" thing....

 

Anyway: the fact that geographically Thedas is also not really much as Europe has been brought up already numerous time. Not only Southern Thedas lies on Southern hemisphere - there's equator running through Tevinter. And aside from Waking Sea there's barely any natural barrier that prevents people from traveling from north to South, increasing racial diversity. I mean, aside from all the "there were times when Tevinter ruled all, shuffled people around and created routes throughout entire Imperium that are utilized till today".

 

Also - national identity is an invention from 18-19th century. Another difference between medieval Europe and Thedas.

 

Oh, another thing - many countries were indeed melting pots for a very long time. I live in one of them. We had this -> https://en.wikipedia...w_Confederation <- since 1573 and had wide diversity not just because at one point Eastern Europe was something like a haven from religious or ethnic oppression, but thanks to being on or near major trade routes from Asia and Middle East.

 

Spoiler

This is one of the reasons why my cousins (I am exceptionally white in terms of skin color myself) were doubly-searched on the airport while we were going back home in 2002 from visit to family in US - some paranoid airport workers thought that they were Arabs, judging from their swarthiness and dark hair/eyes alone! While the truth is both their dad's and mom's side of family has been living here for untold generations. Same way my neighbor with Asian-looking features.

 

So was Italy actually! ...Which, in fact, didn't exist as a unified nation till 1861. If there was ever a melting pot, it's indeed good old Italy (btw. many Italians are dark-skinned or swarthy and were so for a long time. Roman Empire, Emirate of Sicily, etc, etc...)

 

So yeah... you want to talk consistency? Go and clear your misconceptions about how Medieval Europe (or Europe through most of its history) looked first and then try to think if you want to judge Thedas as close approximation to Europe or its own thing with its own internal consistency that merely loosely bases some cultural elements on some European cultures (which is not true, because they also borrow from Hindu culture, Aztec, Byzantium/Istanbul and ancient Egypt among other things).

[vertigomez]

Well, that Hawke is very pale. What about concept art of Fenris?

He's definitely not white.

Spoiler

[PapaCharlie9]

Are we going for realism?  Or are we not?

 

Not.

 

What do people mean when they say "realism" and "that game is realistic"? They can't mean "an accurate depiction of historical reality," because if they did, every game would look like ARMA. It wouldn't be fantasy, by definition.

 

What I believe people mean when they talk about the realism of a fantasy game is "logical consistency" and "relate-ability", as in, players can relate to the fantasy culture by finding parallels in their own experience. They may also mean "photo-realism" with respect to graphics, but let's set that aside for now, since it's not relevant to this thread.

 

If a fantasy country is set in a low latitude with a lot of sun exposure and the fantasy people have biology more-or-less similar to our own, they're gonna have dark skin. That's logically consistent. That doesn't mean they're Congolese or Malaysian. The culture of that country might have no resemblance to any country we know at any point in our history. Because it's fantasy.

 

That said, in order to make a fantasy country, like Orlais, relatable to players, cues are used that make it look and sound like a real country, France. A game designer can use a few cues and broad strokes of the brush, like the accent of a VA, to help a player fill in all the inconsequential details, without having to construct them from first principles. Then all you have to worry about depicting are the consequential details, like wearing masks and The Game.

 

There is a danger to that technique, however, as this thread makes evident. Some players may take those cues further than intended, and make an equivalence between the fantasy country and France. They may believe that Orlais is France, or an alternate version of France, but still France. And then insist that inferences they make about Orlais, like the distribution of skin color, must be true, because they are true of France. Any conflicting evidence to the contrary is retcon.

[BansheeOwnage]

He's definitely not white.

Spoiler

Well, his facial features do seem less caucasian here than in the game proper, but I still don't know about the tone of his skin. I've seen white people with skin that dark, and black people with skin that light.

 

*shrug* Don't listen to me though. I am apparently colour-blind to cat fur and my own hair colour, so I'm not overly confident here

[thats1evildude]

I looked back at the slavers from DAO and they mostly have dark complexions.

Compare the mages on the right with the elf on the left:



And then there's the head slaver:

http://dragonage.wik...e=Caladrius.png

[Addictress]

Not.

What do people mean when they say "realism" and "that game is realistic"? They can't mean "an accurate depiction of historical reality," because if they did, every game would look like ARMA. It wouldn't be fantasy, by definition.

What I believe people mean when they talk about the realism of a fantasy game is "logical consistency" and "relate-ability", as in, players can relate to the fantasy culture by finding parallels in their own experience. They may also mean "photo-realism" with respect to graphics, but let's set that aside for now, since it's not relevant to this thread.

If a fantasy country is set in a low latitude with a lot of sun exposure and the fantasy people have biology more-or-less similar to our own, they're gonna have dark skin. That's logically consistent. That doesn't mean they're Congolese or Malaysian. The culture of that country might have no resemblance to any country we know at any point in our history. Because it's fantasy.

That said, in order to make a fantasy country, like Orlais, relatable to players, cues are used that make it look and sound like a real country, France. A game designer can use a few cues and broad strokes of the brush, like the accent of a VA, to help a player fill in all the inconsequential details, without having to construct them from first principles. Then all you have to worry about depicting are the consequential details, like wearing masks and The Game.

There is a danger to that technique, however, as this thread makes evident. Some players may take those cues further than intended, and make an equivalence between the fantasy country and France. They may believe that Orlais is France, or an alternate version of France, but still France. And then insist that inferences they make about Orlais, like the distribution of skin color, must be true, because they are true of France. Any conflicting evidence to the contrary is retcon.

This is the best post. Everyone can go home now

[Dai Grepher]

My Inquisitor is brown skinned. It worked out well, seeing as how he's distantly related to Dorian. Skin color has never been an issue in the DA universe. People have more important things to worry about. Like ear shape.

[Fredward]

> assume universal whiteness because explicit not-whiteness was not stated

> not-whiteness confirmed

> dem darn liberal PC revisionism

 

[Tidus]

Being PC can hurt the writer's work and PC is a big issue-don't offend anybody or you risk a lawsuit.

 

I can under stand why EA/BW has taken the steps of being PC but, their biggest issue is a incoherent story line with the WTH moments. 

[Abyss108]

I find using the term "politically correct" to be a very strong hint I should ignore everything a person is saying. It's a complete nonsense term that simply means "you did a thing I don't like, but I don't actually have anything to back my point of view up".

[Heimdall]

I looked back at the slavers from DAO and they mostly have dark complexions.

Compare the mages on the right with the elf on the left:



And then there's the head slaver:

http://dragonage.wik...e=Caladrius.png

... Seems pretty darn pale to me.

[Tidus]

Abyss108,Except for attorneys and they will find reasons your feelings are hurt and precede with the lawsuit. Other then that I fully agree PC is pure BS. 

[Abyss108]

Abyss108,Except for attorneys and they will find reasons your feelings are hurt and precede with the lawsuit. Other then that I fully agree PC is pure BS. 

 

When has that ever happened?

 

Also, I didn't say PC is bullshit, I said people who use the term are bullshit. 

[In Exile]

Which country are you from? Also I know Tevinters aren't as white as northern Europeans but the current definition(widely-accepted) is that white = People of European origins. As stated in the OP, Darinius is dark, darker than some Indians I know.

The current definition used by racists. About a century ago, only parts of Europe were "white". Two or three centuries ago we had people lamenting the rising tide of non-white immigrants from Italy and Ireland. A century ago, it was eastern Europe that was non-white. Like Russians.

[RoseLawliet]

To me, this is an argument between people who value consistency between installments in their setting and people who are fine with changing things as they go. I don't care why something wasn't done in DAO. Really, I don't. The point is that that is what people had to form an idea in their minds. Intent means nothing, especially when someone can't perceive it. Would you call someone racist who never got an explanation from the devs, only had what they saw in the games, and were wondering just when things got different?

 

Fenris being a dark-skinned elf from Tevinter means nothing about the human population because we've seen that elf genes are recessive. They're so recessive, that an elf-blooded child can have recessive traits neither of their parents have As for why Fenris in particular has dark skin, I know two things: I have seen people say it was done so that his markings showed up better, and I don't care. However, if he shows up again with dark ebony skin... yeah, I'm going to complain, because it's not consistent. If he shows up pale as snow, I'm going to complain. I don't care whether people gain or lose pigment, I'm complaining because it wasn't that way before.

 

The reasons many countries today have such diversity is because traveling doesn't take too long, it isn't dangerous, relocation is relatively cheap, people will be able to see their families again even if they move across the world, people get vaccinated, and so much more that Thedas doesn't have.

[Statare]

If these settings are supposed to be full of different nation states and regions, then they wouldn't be melting pots. They would have national identities and their families wouldn't have explored too much to make a big difference. Not yet. They aren't modern worlds, like an America or similar areas. If you want a place like that, then design a cosmopolitan area first. Not the other way around. If you're designing an approximation of medieval England or Italy or what have you, then simply stick to the idea. That is what is "coherent".

 

And I say this as someone who's mixed and dark myself. I find it disingenuous. Just like it'd be silly if the shows my mom watched that take place in Thailand were suddenly full of people from Finland. Just to appease the small group of Finnish in Thailand. lol.

 

Except Humans in Thedas are a diaspora. They came from somewhere else, north of Tevinter, we still have not learned exactly where. So by that Humans could have all come from one area, been more or less racially homogenous, and then diversified over the relatively short period of time Humans inhabited Thedas (fantasy). Or, Humans came from many regions North of Tevinter. Because Humans were a diaspora, and a recent one, it is hard to really claim one skin color makes sense here, but not there. Humans did not "evolve" to fit the climes of Thedas, they are foreigners in a foreign land. They can look however the writers want.

[nightscrawl]

To me, this is an argument between people who value consistency between installments in their setting and people who are fine with changing things as they go. I don't care why something wasn't done in DAO. Really, I don't. The point is that that is what people had to form an idea in their minds. Intent means nothing, especially when someone can't perceive it.

Leaving skin color and race out of the equation, the reason something may not have been done originally, or the ultimate intent, does matter when we are talking about an entertainment medium limited by technology. This can be a conflict between gameplay and story mechanics.
 
For example, it was stated that there were limitations to having lyrium addiction be a part of the gameplay for mages and templars in DAO:

So would I. The implementation we had was that, if the addiction developed, the use of lyrium had diminishing returns. You needed more and got less. The problem we encountered, as you point out, is that mages pretty much needed to drink lyrium potions. Addiction was practically guaranteed. So there needed to be some method of dealing with the addiction without rendering it pointless, and ideally some kind of story implication...

...and you can see why it suddenly became costly. If we could come up with some other implementation that was meaningful, I'd like to see return in the future -- it was something templar characters were meant to face as well as mages, after all. Suggestions would be welcome... though perhaps in another thread.

Even in DAI, the templar PC does not have any combat limitations with regard to taking lyrium. Indeed, the templar player does not use lyrium in combat and it is only a part of the story aspect of the specialization quest.

 

Similarly, the qunari horn issue in DAO was also due to graphical limitations. Do recall that Sten is not the only qunari we see in the game, but also his two (or three?) comrades in the Fade if you bring him along on the Circle mission. These also do not have horns.

 

These technical things matter. DAO was terrible with darker skin tones, so they limited their use of them. The skin looked blotchy and the darkest shade looked purple; it was terrible. Even despite this, there are various dark-skinned NPCs sprinkled throughout DAO, they are simply less numerous than their lighter counterparts. DAO does NOT portray Ferelden as having only white people, only primarily white. DA2 had somewhat of a better color selection, but there were issues there as well. Our primary PoC followers, Isabela and Fenris, have unique skin for both face and armor, negating many of these problems.

 

Fast forward to DAI where we have a completely new engine that handles skin color and facial structure in an entirely new, and better, way, and we can have characters like Vivienne, Dorian, and Halward. If DAO and DA2 were to be remade with the Frostbite engine, the devs very well may have more PoC floating around.

[Steelcan]

... Seems pretty darn pale to me.

yeah they look more tanned than dark complexioned imo