266 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

And I personally don't think Bioware has to conform to an expectation that every single medieval fantasy setting needs to be overwhelmingly white because the typical cliché is that medieval people were white as chalk. It's their setting, let them build it, quirks and all. Thedas's widespread sexual freedom is a far more egregious departure from reality than some people being tan/of color, but I still accept it as a characteristic of a fantasy setting that is built to resemble familiar societies, but not emulate them perfectly. It's why it's called fantasy, after all, and not a documentary.

 

To be clear, I don't think it's a bad thing to have nigh on everyone be white (like in The Witcher). It's a quirk of the setting and that's the end of that. But talks of realism don't really belong here unless it's really ridiculous, like if people who lived in a Saharian climate for thousands of years looked like Icelanders, or if people in fantasy Siberia have ebony skin. Or, well, the typical Hollywood shtick of Ancient Egyptians being played by Welsh actors who don't even bother to change their looks or accents.

I never said they should, I said that this creates a disconnect which results in threads like this.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I never said they should, I said that this creates a disconnect which results in threads like this.

 

Sure, but look at who the OP actually is.

 

Besides, shouldn't subverting expectations be seen as a mostly positive thing? Medieval fantasy is so generic a setting that any way Thedas manages to differenciates itself is good at this point, if you ask me. I'm sure a lot of people were puzzled when, say, Planescape: Torment forced them to play an ugly dude who never got his hands on a sword in defiance of all fantasy stereotypes, but that's not a negative in the end.

[Steelcan]

Sure, but look at who the OP actually is.

 

Besides, shouldn't subverting expectations be seen as a mostly positive thing? Medieval fantasy is so generic a setting that any way Thedas manages to differenciates itself is good at this point, if you ask me. I'm sure a lot of people were puzzled when, say, Planescape: Torment forced them to play an ugly dude who never got his hands on a sword in defiance of all fantasy stereotypes, but that's not a negative in the end.

Not inherently, there has to be a reason for the subversion and it has to be done to make a point, upending tradition just for the sake of doing so isn't going to end with a quality product.

[BansheeOwnage]

Forgive my ignorance, but what does POC stand for? Also, I've never heard the word "swarthy" before this thread

[Biotic Apostate]

Forgive my ignorance, but what does POC stand for? Also, I've never heard the word "swarthy" before this thread

Person of Colour, a term used to refer to non-Caucasian people.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Not inherently, there has to be a reason for the subversion and it has to be done to make a point, upending tradition just for the sake of doing so isn't going to end with a quality product.

 

When it's a ''tradition'' that doesn't make that much sense and doesn't seem dear to many people here save Dutch, I see no harm in ignoring it myself.

[ModernAcademic]

Read WOT v2 and looked at the artist rendition of Darinius the founder of the Imperium and he seems pretty brown. Nothing wrong with that mind you but it seems they're colouring a lot of people in thedas for PC purposes. I mean I gathered the Tevinters were similar in skintone to say Ancient Romans and Hellenes but the picture of Darinius reminded me of some very dark Hindu priest.

Really I find this disconcerting, I mean half of Ferelden is already black from the NPCS seen in the hinterlands. I'm not against colouring of the races and diversification per say but the Tevinters we saw in DA1, 2 and 3(Calpurnia) were white. Also Isabella looked like a Romani which was the opposite from what I've seen in da2.

 

Maybe the Imperium has become a more diverse society from an ethnical point of view because of their expansionism.

Conquered peoples become part of the empire working as slaves. They become part of the population and thus the basis of society becomes multicultural.

 

But you're right. It's weird to see a fictional empire clearly based on Rome and Greece - both empires built on slavery - having been started by a facsimile of a Hindu.

[ModernAcademic]

Yep. They said the Eclipse engine, the engine that DAO and DA2 used, had problems with properly displaying darker skin tones. Now that they are using the Frostbite engine, they don't have that issue anymore.

 

Racist engine. Tsk, tsk.

[BansheeOwnage]

Person of Colour, a term used to refer to non-Caucasian people.

Ah okay, thanks. I feel dumb for not guessing that, but I did at least figure out the meaning.

[ModernAcademic]

Sure, but look at who the OP actually is.

 

Besides, shouldn't subverting expectations be seen as a mostly positive thing? 

 

Not if you expect to see an African tribe being depicted accurately in a story/game/etc and then it turns out all the inhabitants look Chinese and believe in Christ.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

So brown people are evil now ?

 

As a brown guy, that is really cool. Whitey always gets to be the baddies so its nice that we have those roles from time to time...

[Giantdeathrobot]

Not if you expect to see an African tribe being depicted accurately in a story/game/etc and then it turns out all the inhabitants look Chinese and believe in Christ.

 

I get you, but people from Tevinter (who come from warmer climates) having darker complexions than those in colder climates isn't exactly world-shattering in terms of expectations in my books.

[ModernAcademic]

I get you, but people from Tevinter (who come from warmer climates) having darker complexions than those in colder climates isn't exactly world-shattering in terms of expectations in my books.

 

Of course. I think OP's original issue before the craziness began was about a different problem, though: the incoherence concerning the ethnical origin of the leaders of the empire. Like I stated a few posts back there: 

It's weird to see a fictional empire clearly based on Rome and Greece having been started by a facsimile of a Hindu. 

 

 

What I understand from his complaint is that, if the Imperium was founded by people who look like Hindi, then the modern rulers should bear similar traits to them.

As it turns out, most Magisters and slavers were depicted as Caucasian, with Dorian and his father coming along to break that rule only in the last game of the trilogy.

 

 

So what OP is complaining about is that the retcon was poorly done.

 

 

There could've been clear evidence that the dominant group of Tevinter wasn't homogeneous. However, as people already pointed out, that's a very unusual characteristic for the ruling class of any society. Usually, the dominant group is comprised of families with shared bloodline. Everybody is somebody's cousin, and everyone is related to the king in some degree. That's usually how it goes, anyway.

 

So creating Magisters from multicultural backgrounds (Rivain, etc) is - well, how to say this - the writer was certainly being very creative with how much he could innovate given the established context of Tevinter's Magisters in Origins and DA2. 

 

 

Given Dorian's introduction as a dark-skinned Magister, a very popular character that has been succesfully introduced in the lore, it's safe to assume the retcon was done based on him. So how's it possible that the design of the founder of a Roman-like empire coincides with Dorian's? It's like saying the first Roman emperor was a Hindu. Does that make sense to you?

 

 

 It's as if WoT is telling us that India evolved into the Roman empire. I believe that was OP's original issue in a nutshell. 

[Illegitimus]

OK.

I gather that

Rivain = North Africa/Subsaharan Africa
Antiva = Spain/Southern Italy
Free Marches = Northern Italian States
Nevarra = Austria/Hungary(ie Central Europe)
Anderfells = Germany, Scandanvia, Netherland
Orlais = France
Ferelden = England
Tevinter Imperium = Roman Empire+Caliphate+Persian Empire+Gupta Empire or any other pre-modern Indian state

Would that be fair?

 

Eastern Roman Empire to be specific.  The Vints are the shrunken remainder of what used to be the biggest empire in the world and home to the equivalent of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch.  Except they never had an equivalent to the Parthian Empire so they just kept going until they hit ocean.  

[ArcaneEsper]

Snip

Yeah, hey just a small nitpick but this thread is full of "looks Hindu" like Hinduism is a religion so you can't "look" it. The term you're looking for is South Asian.

And on topic, it's really not surprising that Tevinter has dark skinned people. Where it's hot, the indigenous people are likely dark skinned.

[Gervaise]

The image of Darinius looks dusky skinned.   That doesn't necessarily mean south Asian/Indian sub-continent.   It could just as easily be north African or any of the Middle Eastern ethnic groups.    The Altus are all said to trace their ancestry to the first Dreamers but that doesn't mean that other bloodlines weren't introduced along the way.  Tidarion was a low born mage of Planescene blood that the Archon took as an apprentice and possible heir.  He might have died without producing a heir but I'm sure there were others who didn't.   It was as a result of this incident that Laetans were first admitted to the temples and given seats in the Magisterium.   So it is clear there would be an ethnic mix, even at the very top of Tevinter society.     The main thing is that the original natives to the region would have been dusky skinned because generally people from more sunny climes are.   People like Dorian reflect that origin and it lends some credence to his family's claim of a "pure" bloodline.   Whereas Alexius and Felix clearly show the influence of the introduction of bloodlines from outside of the original ethnic group.   Calpurnia was originally a slave and no one knows where she came from, not even Calpurnia herself, so she could easily have been captured in the south and taken north.

 

What I found generally more odd was the introduction of dark skinned people among the nobility of Ferelden but again I suppose you can put that down to migration and conquest.    Where you have a more insular group, like the Avaar, they are depicted consistently pale skinned, a befits an ethnic group from the colder, less sunny, southern lands.   I assume natives of Seheron, should we ever meet them, would be consistently darker skinned, although even among them there might be variants as a result of many years of Tevinter occupation prior to the arrival of the Qun.

 

No one can say exactly what the original natives of Rome may have looked like but I'd point out that generally Mediterranean people are darker hued than their more northern counterparts, even if ethnically they are all classed as Caucassian/White.    Trade, slavery and general movement of people, together with inter-marriage, meant that throughout the region it is difficult to state precisely what colour the original natives would have been.

 

What I find odder is the mix in skin colour of elves since you cannot have the same diversity of bloodlines that exist in humans and the Dalish in particular are likely to be drawn from a very restricted gene pool.  

[AedanStarfang]

People from Rivain were always black. Isabela in DAO and DA2 was black.

Isabella was basically a tan white woman (i.e. Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, etc). Vivienne was and still is the only true Black person we've been introduced to in this entire game franchise. 

[Andraste_Reborn]

Isabella was basically a tan white woman (i.e. Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, etc). Vivienne was and still is the only true Black person we've been introduced to in this entire game franchise. 

 

1. Not all black people look the same. I always thought of Isabela as North African. (Not that there's a North Africa in Thedas, but the local equivalent.) Word Of Dev says she's black, if that means anything to you.

 

2. Duncan, Mother Giselle, Master Dennet and Ser Barris all want a word.

[Medhia_Nox]

I couldn't care if all of Thedas was the darkest of human skin tones - like elves, dwarves and Qunari... skin color does nothing for me in telling a story.  

 

But complaining that Bioware changed something about Dragon Age "lore" is like complaining that outside has weather.  

[Statare]

Isabella was basically a tan white woman (i.e. Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, etc). Vivienne was and still is the only true Black person we've been introduced to in this entire game franchise. 

 

All three of those "white" places you mention have a close history with the Middle East / Africa, but to me Isabela looked like she could be from anywhere stretching from Morocco to India considering the limitations of DA2's engine, even if they continued said model on for DAMP.

 

Anyways. I looked up this image of Darinius. He is wearing a Tevinter style toga/chiton/wrap thing, greekish sandals, a dragon headdress, and carrying a dragon egg on a staff thing. I do not see the "Hindu" outside his skin color, but really its a shade of color that could be anything from North Africa/Mediterranean to the First Nations of the Americas. Edit: He even has bluish grey eyes like Dorian. I guess the cat with him could be seen as kind of "Egyptian" esque, but considering Egypt's historical close ties to Greece, it's not that weird. Again, not sure where the Hindu comparison comes from, looks like Greek/Egyptian to me. The shoulder pads / necklace thing he is wearing reminds me of the Isis (Goddess) Wings / Scarab thing stereotypic ancient Egyptians wear. Part of it feels kind of Incan.

 

The designers/writers have repeatedly said they draw from multiple cultures when they depict Thedas. Seems consistent to me.

[IllustriousT]

I vote for diversity. 

[ArcaneEsper]

I took a look at the Darinius picture and skin tone wise he could be South Asian, but I see nothing wrong with that. I've seen a lot of people around my parts with that kind of skin tone. Though he looks nothing like a Hindu Priest. What he's wearing doesn't resemble them at all.

[Reznore57]

1. Not all black people look the same. I always thought of Isabela as North African. (Not that there's a North Africa in Thedas, but the local equivalent.) Word Of Dev says she's black, if that means anything to you.

 

It depends on where you live , I'm from europe with a lot of people from arab , tunisian , and morroco origins , and you never ever call people from northern africa black.

They don't see themselves as black either for that matter, brown would be more fitting.Black is for people for central africa/southern africa and people from island overseas.

As I understand it's not the same type of cultural classification in the Us, Canada.

[nightscrawl]

I don't get why this is considered a "retcon." In a recent dev presentation, David Gaider stated that "darker skin tones are more prevalent" in eastern Tevinter. When you consider its proximity to Rivain and Antiva, this makes sense.

 

We still see plenty of lighter Tevinters in DAI. The dark Tevinters we see in DAI are Dorian, his father Halward, and Servis. All the rest, Felix, Alexius, Erimond, Calpernia, and numerous Venatori NPCs are all light-skinned. I might even add Corypheus to the light bunch for his remaining skin, but his Tevinter is 1000+ years gone and the demographics are different. How are they "swarthying" the Tevinters?

 

 

Forgive my ignorance, but what does POC stand for? Also, I've never heard the word "swarthy" before this thread

 

I like using swarthy to describe my preference or "type" when it comes to the physical attributes. This applies to men and women. It's a fun word, I think. I was introduced to it by my mother after we both had the hots for Oded Fehr (who is Israeli) when watching him in The Mummy. As I recall, his character doesn't have a name for most of the movie, so we just resorted to calling him "swarthy guy" and swooning .

[Forsythia77]

His facial structure and features are European.

 

There are plenty of real live brown and black people who have white facial structures and coloring, yet are still not white.  I get mistaken for being lots of things other than what I am, which is a light skinned, white featured black woman.  Hell, when I got married Cook County mistakenly listed me as white and I had to get my marriage license application redone.