4630 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

Why i have the impression that these has nothing to do with my post?

 

 

That's a question that you should answer since you asked it then didn't bother to answer. 

 

[Sah291]

Oh look how we handle the genocide with technicalities!
Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large group of people,so does it really matter if it will likely happen as consequence?
A consequence of whom Solas is already aware and despite it want to fulfill his plan.
So yes for my perspective is a genocide since he wish to perform a plan while perfectly aware of its possible repercussions.

No, it does definitely matter. He's actions are still just as bad.

It's just that.... Since it isn't really his goal/ intention, and he would probably prefer to avoid it if he could even while still going through with his plan, it means there is still the possibility to sway him. He still has a conscience to appeal to, at least, which makes a redemption arc more realistic. That would not likely be the case...if he really just wanted to genocide people, or was doing evil for the sake of it, just to cause chaos. That sort of villian usually can't be reasoned with. There would be little point and little gained from trying to redeem him.

(Woo! 100 pages!)

[midnight tea]

No, it does definitely matter. He's actions are still just as bad.

It's just that.... Since it isn't really his goal/ intention, and he would probably prefer to avoid it if he could even while still going through with his plan, it means there is still the possibility to sway him. He still has a conscience to appeal to, at least, which makes a redemption arc more realistic. That would not likely be the case...if he really just wanted to genocide people, or was doing evil for the sake of it, just to cause chaos. That sort of villian usually can't be reasoned with. There would be little point and little gained from trying to redeem him.

(Woo! 100 pages!)

 

Yep, agreed, nuance and context matter - in this or any other occasion, RL or not. This is exactly why even in the modern court of law such things like 'murder' are never really judged without taking into consideration circumstances and intentions and the verdict can differ wildly depending on a case.

 

Does this mean that what Solas does is justified? Or that my Inquisitors will just be standing on the side and twiddling their thumbs while he enacts his plan to change the world? Of course not. At the very least people have the right to protect themselves or fight back, if someone threatens their world or way of living. But if there's a way to solve this peacefully, or will allow to save more lives on both sides AND we'd be able to truly redeem Solas? Sure as hell most of my Inkys/DA4 PCs  will be on that route, even if means hours more of tedious busywork for main campaign

[Sah291]

Yeah, basically. Whether Solas can be swayed or redeemed or not depends a lot on whether or not he is acting rationally... In my opinion.

The "kill them before they kill us" approach is better reserved for enemies that are either too unreasonable, too alien or inhuman to negotiate with, beyond understanding, insane, or otherwise overwhelmingly evil, tyrannical, etc. You could argue the reapers in ME fell under that category.

Solas, and the elves, have something to lose, and they are acting largely out what they see as self preservation, and self defense. If there is a more peaceful way to acomplish that, they may be reasoned with.

Even the Architect was reasonable in this way, as war came at a great cost for the darkspawn too.

[Lezio]

Yeah, basically. Whether Solas can be swayed or redeemed or not depends a lot on whether or not he is acting rationally... In my opinion.

The "kill them before they kill us" approach is better reserved for enemies that are either too unreasonable, too alien or inhuman to negotiate with, beyond understanding, insane, or otherwise overwhelmingly evil, tyrannical, etc. You could argue the reapers in ME fell under that category.

Solas, and the elves, have something to lose, and they are acting largely out what they see as self preservation, and self defense. If there is a more peaceful way to acomplish that, they may be reasoned with.

Even the Architect was reasonable in this way, as war came at a great cost for the darkspawn too.

 

Who is acting out of self-preservation? Solas? Self-preservation for a civilization that's mostly gone and, quite literally, no one knows or even cares about? Thedas will be fighting for survival, not the latters

Possibly, the modern day elves, whom are just now starting to raise back up in the South's society, are acting on some kind of twisted self-preservation. They'll surely have to fight for survival when people will blame them for Solas/the Evanuris and they will, more than likely, be held accountable for their "gods" actions

[Sah291]

Who is acting out of self-preservation? Solas? Self-preservation for a civilization that's mostly gone and, quite literally, no one knows or even cares about? Thedas will be fighting for survival, not the latters
Possibly, the modern day elves, whom are just now starting to raise back up in the South's society, will have to act on self-preservation when people will blame them for Solas/the Evanuris and they will, more than likely, be made to pay for their "gods" actions

Solas, on behalf of the elves joining his cause, presumably. They might not all be fighting for the ancient civilization/empire exactly... But they are fighting to end their oppression and for better living conditions...or at least the modern elves are. The ancient elves still existing, we know even less about. They are fighting to restore their connection to the fade, among other things, I would guess. They don't want to die out as a people.

The fact that a majority of modern Thedas doesn't agree or care about them, isn't really the point. They do see it as self preservation, so if you want to understand their motives, you have to have to look at it from their perspective.

Solas might be able to attract fewer followers (among modern elves) for some dangerous pie in the sky utopian plan nobody knows anything about...if...

Tevinter takes steps to ends their policy of slavery, maybe. Or if the Chantry eases their stance on the Dalish and other apostates, perhaps. These are big reasons why elves were flocking to the Qun, after all.

[Hellion Rex]

I just want to know if Solas is just using the modern elves for what equates to manual labor to bring back the old elves and then not giving the modern ones a seat at the table and letting them perish in the chaos.

[Hellion Rex]

A question I pose to those who wish to redeem Solas: if he planned to let the modern elves die like everyone else, would you still support efforts to redeem him?

[Sah291]

I just want to know if Solas is just using the modern elves for what equates to manual labor to bring back the old elves and then not giving the modern ones a seat at the table and letting them perish in the chaos.

 

That might be. But regardless, Southern Thedas has a probelm with elves, whether they are flocking to Solas, the Qun, or people like Briala. Like the mages reached a boiling point already, the elves seem to be reaching that point now. It's just going to keep reoccurring if Thedas doesn't deal with the problem somehow.

 

A question I pose to those who wish to redeem Solas: if he planned to let the modern elves die like everyone else, would you still support efforts to redeem him?

I don't know whether it is a matter of choice for Solas. It's like, when the Veil drops, the tide is going to come flooding in, and he can't simply pick and choose who will be saved like that. It sounds like it's going to be more a matter of who is capable of swimming and not drowning in the choas created... Ancient beings like him most likely. He seemed to have some temporary hope when he saw the Inquisitor survive the mark and physically enter the fade without dying. But that hope is gone now.

He is probably keeping that info from the modern elves though. He keeps it from the Inquisitor, so why wouldn't he.

The thing is, some elves might be okay with that, if it means their descendants and culture will survive on. If future generations may be better of. They would be more likely to think that way if they see modern Thedas as hopeless.

Yes it's very possible he's just using the masses to fight on behalf of a small elite elven population, who will not share in the victory. The only objection to that I have, is that it doesn't seem to fit Solas' personality and motives (as an anti slavery crusader and god of rebellion who fought elite god kings at a great cost).

[midnight tea]

The fact that a majority of modern Thedas doesn't agree or care about them, isn't really the point. They do see it as self preservation, so if you want to understand their motives, you have to have to look at it from their perspective.

 

There's an interesting psychological phenomenon going on, isn't it? A lot of people think that we'll be fighting for preservation of modern Thedosians... yet there are those who don't see that the other side does that as well? I mean, it at least appears to be one of the major motives for Solas - and even without him we hear from Abelas that they're dying out, and we don't even know how many of them there are, or if the world will lose something important if they disappear.

 

Heck, we can tell that even modern elves - as well as dwarves AND mages - appear to be on a slightly longer road towards extinction unless someone stems the tide, in some magical way too; dwarves seem to suffer due to severed connection with Titans and their birth rate is steadily declining, elves can only mate between themselves otherwise their offspring is human and the mage population is declining either because people are actively working to cull their numbers (Chantry) or they intermarry and keep the gifts of magic from larger population (Tevinter).

 

Yet because we don't identify with them as readily as common humans it's THEY who have to go? Is sitting on our hands and just waiting for the problem to go away on its own really a better solution?

 

Some could say that this may simply be the natural way of things... but ah, now we know that the world *isn't* in it's 'natural' state, is it?  Some could say that the majority can't be sacrificed for minorities - but we don't even know how many people will suffer from the state the world is in in the long run. What if things go their way and the Veil will deteriorate on its own and there will be nothing anyone would be able to do to save anyone; not even a fraction of population? What if the same thing happens but with the Blight? Or what if the Qunari will have their way and strengthen the Veil (which we know they're working on!) to the point that they'd inadvertently cut the magic from the word entirely - and we know what happens when people are cut away from the Fade.

 

At this point we just don't know if this could/will happen. But those are possibilities we can't so far exclude. Nor we can ignore that with the way things are there are people (and spirits) who suffer greatly and who'd probably use any opportunity to improve the well-being of themselves and their loved ones. I can't really blame them for that.

[Ellawynn]

Tevinter takes steps to ends their policy of slavery, maybe. Or if the Chantry eases their stance on the Dalish and other apostates, perhaps. These are big reasons why elves were flocking to the Qun, after all.

 

I'm not so sure about that last one. From what I understand, most elven Qun converts are city elves, because they're the ones that have to deal directly with human oppression - escaping to the Qun is the only viable option if they want to dodge it. The Dalish, on the other hand, are much more externally opposed by human. They've still got put up with racism, but ultimately they have an easier time just ignoring it by retreating into their own society. Granted they're vulnerable to random purges by city guards or Templars, but so are the city elves.

 

If anything, I think advocating for the Dalish might be a good way to lose city elf support, both because they'll see your cause as divided and complain about splitting your efforts to help them, and because there's already a demonstrated animosity between the Dalish and the City Elves. That animosity would have to be untangled first, since I imagine it's one of the best tools human society has for keeping elves oppressed - because it turns elves against each other, redirecting their hostilities and fracturing any potential base for rebellion.

 

This is why I always find the "Solas should just give up and campaign for freedom in this world!" solution to be a bit naive. A ) He said he's tried that, but can see no effective and long-lasting solution and B ) It still fails to resurrect the magic and spirits and general Fadey-ness that he seems to be just as concerned with.

 

The only really effective solution I can see to Solas' problem that doesn't involve lots of random death is to restore the Crossroads (And other such pocket realms) and have the elves build a society there - they'd be secure from humans, thanks to the Eluvians, and could regain more of their magic living so close to the Fade. But the fact that Solas has evidently dismissed that solution implies to me that it wouldn't work. Maybe any pocket realm is doomed to crumble and corrupt, as long as the Veil's in place.

 

A question I pose to those who wish to redeem Solas: if he planned to let the modern elves die like everyone else, would you still support efforts to redeem him?

 

Sure? I fail to see how that truly changes anything. Their deaths aren't more or less important just because they're elves. 

 

Also what Sah said. Pretty sure that if Solas could pick and choose, he'd be trying to save a romanced Lavellan, at the very least.

[Illegitimus]

A question I pose to those who wish to redeem Solas: if he planned to let the modern elves die like everyone else, would you still support efforts to redeem him?

 

 

Sure.  Keeping people from following through on wicked intentions is better than pre-empting them by killing them.  It's more a matter of what is possible of course.  Is it possible to persuade him not to be crazy?  Is it even within your capability to kill him?   Ultimately one's choice of action when the stakes are this large should be determined by the maximum odds of success.  So one should only go for the kill if trying for redemption will preclude going for the kill if you fail, and if the odds of successfully killing are actually higher than the odds of persuasion.   

[Sah291]

@Ellawynn,

Sure, the city elves and Dalish have different priorities and motives, and it was more the city elves going for the Qun (due to situations like we saw in Kirkwall). I was just throwing that out there as one of the reasons the Andrastian/Elven alliance has dwindled to such a poor state.

The Chantry was in a crisis because it was leaking support from basically everywhere... mages, templars, elves, etc. The Inquisiton temporarily acted as uniting force, while there was a common threat, but with the breach dealt with, Cory defeated, and the Qunari in retreat (for now), that purpose was diminished.

I agree the Dalish/City Elf divide keeps the elves in conflict with each other, instead of working towards a common goal. But that's how it is. The City Elves are more modern and liberal, wanting to live by human ways and follow human religions. The Dalish are conservative and traditional, wanting to stick to their old religion and reconstruct their historical culture. They don't get along.

Interestingly enough, someone like Solas might be capable of uniting them. Promising to both restore ancient culture, and usher in a new world order, at the same time. Or maybe the Dalish will end up opposing him, since they blame Fen'Harel and are loyal to the Evanuris. It will be interesting to see.

[dawnstone]

Some could say that this may simply be the natural way of things... but ah, now we know that the world *isn't* in it's 'natural' state, is it?  Some could say that the majority can't be sacrificed for minorities - but we don't even know how many people will suffer from the state the world is in in the long run. What if things go their way and the Veil will deteriorate on its own and there will be nothing anyone would be able to do to save; not even a fraction of population? What if the same thing happens but with the Blight? Or what if the Qunari will have their way and strengthen the Veil (which we know they're working on!) to the point that they'd inadvertently cut the magic from the word entirely - and we know what happens when people are cut away from the Fade.

 

 

It always cracks me up when people say "Well we should make the Veil stronger and seal magic and the Fade away forever!" Yes, genius, that would make the whole world Tranquil. Good job!

 

I honestly think that's what the Qun's ultimate goal is - to render everyone, top to bottom in society, Tranquil.

[Abyss108]

A question I pose to those who wish to redeem Solas: if he planned to let the modern elves die like everyone else, would you still support efforts to redeem him?

He says the modern Elves will die like everyone else in Trespasser if you play an Elf. And why would this change why someone wants to redeem him? I don't think the majority of players want to genocide humanity just because they play as an Elf.

[Ellawynn]

It always cracks me up when people say "Well we should make the Veil stronger and seal magic and the Fade away forever!" Yes, genius, that would make the whole world Tranquil. Good job!

 

I honestly think that's what the Qun's ultimate goal is - to render everyone, top to bottom in society, Tranquil.

 

And I am so on board with that idea.

 

DA5 comes and the player has a choice - help Solas, tear down the Veil, and murder pretty much everyone but allow hope for a future? Help the Qunari, strengthen the Veil, save countless lives but condemn everyone to Tranquility? Do nothing, and allow whatever not-good very-painful reckoning that is probably going to occur if the status quo keeps chugging along?

 

I don't think BioWare would do it, because they seem pretty gun-shy about making the player choose between a variety of equally unpleasant options (Especially after ME3) but it'd be neat, I think. I'm so tired of people harping on about golden decisions and perfect "third choices." Life doesn't materialize perfect solutions just because you want them bad enough. DA shouldn't either.

[Xerrai]

It always cracks me up when people say "Well we should make the Veil stronger and seal magic and the Fade away forever!" Yes, genius, that would make the whole world Tranquil. Good job!

 

I honestly think that's what the Qun's ultimate goal is - to render everyone, top to bottom in society, Tranquil.

Yeah, I always scoff when people say something like that.

The fade isn't just some "other dimension" that we can push away. It is the other half of Thedas. The literal representation of our memories and emotions, filled with denizens that reflect the worlds concepts. Without it, you essentially cleave the away Thedas's emotional half.

[Seraphim24]

The problem here is just because there are "Elves" doesn't really mean anything, it's just yet another warped vision of some kind of Tolkien thing for the upteenth time.

 

Objectively, the "Elven Pantheon" of DA is just a bunch of vagabond villains really.

 

In DA terms it isn't even necessarily clear what their role was in creation/enforcement etc, they just kind of are around destroying things for some reason.

 

For all practical purposes, they (not saying without exception, or as a rule or anything, but a huge number) are the antagonists of DA.

 

Solas is just kind of the betrayer in the sense that he is like "snitching" but he's part of the same problem of Evanuris.

[Witch Cocktor]

And I am so on board with that idea.

 

DA5 comes and the player has a choice - help Solas, tear down the Veil, and murder pretty much everyone but allow hope for a future? Help the Qunari, strengthen the Veil, save countless lives but condemn everyone to Tranquility? Do nothing, and allow whatever not-good very-painful reckoning that is probably going to occur if the status quo keeps chugging along?

 

I don't think BioWare would do it, because they seem pretty gun-shy about making the player choose between a variety of equally unpleasant options (Especially after ME3) but it'd be neat, I think. I'm so tired of people harping on about golden decisions and perfect "third choices." Life doesn't materialize perfect solutions just because you want them bad enough. DA shouldn't either.

Life doesn't materialize perfect solutions no, but that is part of the fascination with video games, that you can save the world, become the hero and all that.

I have enough depression in real life, I don't need it in my games just cuz '' REALISM!!! EDGINESS!!! SAD FEELS!!!! ''

That's not to say bad things shouldn't happen in games, but that storyline makes me want to throw myself off the cliff for how depressing it is and how useless I would feel living through my DA PC's, building them and caring for them.. Everything just comes crashing down and that's not entertaining for me.

[dawnstone]

And I am so on board with that idea.

 

DA5 comes and the player has a choice - help Solas, tear down the Veil, and murder pretty much everyone but allow hope for a future? Help the Qunari, strengthen the Veil, save countless lives but condemn everyone to Tranquility? Do nothing, and allow whatever not-good very-painful reckoning that is probably going to occur if the status quo keeps chugging along?

 

I don't think BioWare would do it, because they seem pretty gun-shy about making the player choose between a variety of equally unpleasant options (Especially after ME3) but it'd be neat, I think. I'm so tired of people harping on about golden decisions and perfect "third choices." Life doesn't materialize perfect solutions just because you want them bad enough. DA shouldn't either.

I mean, the dwarves obviously would still be relatively unaffected, right? Other than the fact that the now Tranquil people that they trade lyrium with and base their entire economy around, no longer have any use for it, because they wouldn't care about anything but the set of instructions the Qun left them with. So, a complete collapse of trade on that end. And it would be unlikely that the Qun would be properly prepared to deal with a Blight (and no one would care enough to stop it). The Blight is not connected to the Fade, so in a couple of hundred years the world would end anyway.

 

But wait... I wonder.

 

If the Titans are rendered fully Tranquil by an impermeable Veil, instead of just asleep, would it actually kill the world? The Titans seem to make up the world's surface, and their entire circulatory system is made of magic, which seems to power the Fade? Lyrium is the source of all magic according to Solas (except for what the mages themselves bring), not the Fade (it's more likely the Fade is largely generated by the Titans and their lyrium). So, if there is no magic, there is no Thedas. Either that, or it could create a feedback loop that would eventually create a second Fade under the Impermeable Veil.

 

That would be some crazy ****. Hmmm.... DOUBLE FADE...

 

I'm just bored and throwing crap against the wall, sorry. XD

[Almostfaceman]

He says the modern Elves will die like everyone else in Trespasser if you play an Elf. And why would this change why someone wants to redeem him? I don't think the majority of players want to genocide humanity just because they play as an Elf.

 

And once again no he doesn't. 

[Almostfaceman]

I mean, the dwarves obviously would still be relatively unaffected, right? Other than the fact that the now Tranquil people that they trade lyrium with and base their entire economy around, no longer have any use for it, because they wouldn't care about anything but the set of instructions the Qun left them with. So, a complete collapse of trade on that end. And it would be unlikely that the Qun would be properly prepared to deal with a Blight (and no one would care enough to stop it). The Blight is not connected to the Fade, so in a couple of hundred years the world would end anyway.

 

But wait... I wonder.

 

If the Titans are rendered fully Tranquil by an impermeable Veil, instead of just asleep, would it actually kill the world? The Titans seem to make up the world's surface, and their entire circulatory system is made of magic, which seems to power the Fade? Lyrium is the source of all magic according to Solas (except for what the mages themselves bring), not the Fade (it's more likely the Fade is largely generated by the Titans and their lyrium). So, if there is no magic, there is no Thedas. Either that, or it could create a feedback loop that would eventually create a second Fade under the Impermeable Veil.

 

That would be some crazy ****. Hmmm.... DOUBLE FADE...

 

I'm just bored and throwing crap against the wall, sorry. XD

 

These are things to consider because this is Thedas and it ain't our world. The Fade does have a natural connection that isn't understood because of the Veil. 

[dawnstone]

These are things to consider because this is Thedas and it ain't our world. The Fade does have a natural connection that isn't understood because of the Veil. 

Yeah, it's not our world, and it doesn't operate under the same set of rules. It does have rules, but they are based around giant sentient rock monsters beings, magical blood, and dreams. I think this confuses a lot of players who dislike supernatural elements getting in the way of their hack and slash.

[Medhia_Nox]

 

 

And once again no he doesn't. 

 

He doesn't say people will die?

[Almostfaceman]

He doesn't say people will die?

 

You already know my argument, I've had it with you several times. Ain't gonna happen again, can't help it if you have memory problems.

 

For anyone who's interested I posted a topic covering my opinion on this matter and I've covered it in this thread as well. 

 

http://forum.bioware...-and-the-elves/