4630 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I see Solas as displaying empathy that is non-beneficial and not self-centered as seen in his dialogue with other companions and his remarks. I'll see if I can find the dialogue in question that I am thinking about to provide some more substance for this section of my post.

Again, he is capable of that. I never said he wasn't. 

As for finding dialogue, no need. I don't take what he says in the main game as credible evidence. 

 

To me, it seemed like Solas' murder of Felassan was not based solely on a disagreement; it seemed like it was more based on that Felassan posed a threat to Solas and his plans because of what he knew of Solas and said plans especially as he had the ear of Briala. He had deliberately sabotaged Solas' efforts to acquire the mirror network by preventing Briala from informing him the password something I think Solas did know about.

 

I should note that I am not saying that Solas' murder of Felassan was right, I am saying that I consider it to be motivated by more than simply disagreement.

So as I said, the moment Felassan was no longer a benefit to Solas, he terminated the relationship. Literally. 

 

By disagree, I don't mean they just had a disagreement. I meant more along the lines of the "to cause physical discomfort or ill effect" definition.

[BansheeOwnage]

I didn't say people who like hack and slash are simpletons, it is simply playstyle that I don't particularly enjoy. What I like about Dragon Age, is that while you get action and interesting and varied characters to get to know, there is also a lot of mystery. There are a lot of elements that at first seem familiar, but then open up into a can of bloody eyeballs, tentacles, and teeth. Each game you get to peel back more layers and I find that fascinating.

Ah, well I do agree with that. Really I wouldn't say I'm a hack and slash type player either, I was just saying that I don't like my fictional worlds to be too different from the real one. The thing about what you said though, is that it can be hard to pull off in a satisfying way, because part of me is interested in the mysteries (and therefore I want to know the answers), but sometimes the mysteries are explained in a less-than-satisfactory way, and I wish they were left alone. An example is the Reapers' motivations being explained in ME3, although that was a retcon itself, so maybe not the best example. The Reapers' origins, then.

 

You're a guy? I thought you looked like your icon.

 

Anyways.

Someone's avatar is a decent indicator, but definitely not solid.

 

Tsk, tsk.

Some of your fandom bitterness is showing. Such things never reflect well on you or your arguments if one seems entrenched in their hate.

 

But more on topic. We have already seen him directly killing people who had (debatedly) no reason to be killed. If you didn't know what you were getting into with his personal quest choice, his incinerating of the circle mages could have easily come as a shock. Their only crime was ignorance and desperration, after all.

Actually, it's important to see this from Solas' perspective - that spirits are people like any other. Taking that into account, those mages are actually guilty of torture and murder, albeit unintentionally, from ignorance. And because no institution (besides possibly the Inquisition) will ever try these mages for these crimes, Solas is forced to either exact justice/vengeance on them himself, or let them off without punishment.

 

Because I agree that spirits are people, I can see how this is a terrible situation to deal with. Imagine someone (accidentally or not) killing one of your friends, but you know that the court won't prosecute the killer because your friend was BLANK. That said, I don't ever let him kill them.

 

He even mentions in that conversation how he doesn't want to give the Inquisitor too much, and yet then tells us his whole plan.

Well, he hasn't told us his whole plan, otherwise we'd be having a different conversation.

 

Why would he want to give the Inquisitor enough information to work with? 

I've explained why I think he did. He feels guilty for doing all this, and for betraying the Inquisitor and Inquisition. So he tips the scales slightly their way. Also, he may subconsciously want to fail, or perhaps he just wants to force the current world to try to find an alternative that he couldn't.

 

... And how many years WE ourselves spent to come to accept that the world we have now - with no institutionalized discrimination, separation of church and state, free access to information, and no rulers or religious institutions fiercely protecting the established status quo to the point of absurdity - is superior to what we had before?

I mean... wasn't there a bloody Civil War in America to abolish slavery??? Because half of the country was unconvinced that freedom for everyone is actually better for everyone? How many years did we have to fight for equality on many levels? And there are still some that are unconvinced that this is better :/

Eh, to be fair, many of those things are still happening. We haven't reached those goals yet.

[Hellion Rex]

So we really can't judge Solas yet

And therein is my point of contention with you. You believe that we can't judge him yet. I disagree. He has stated that this world must die. To me, that is more than sufficient to condemn him to death, good intentions or not. I respect the points you have made, but I do not agree with your assessment of the situation.

 

Edit: To that end, I agree that we need more information, but am I willing to risk the lives of Thedosians on the hope that Solas is doing this for a valid reason? Nope. Not a chance in hell. He's gotta die, at least for me.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

So as I said, the moment Felassan was no longer a benefit to Solas, he terminated the relationship. Literally.

There is a subtle but important different between "no longer benefiting" (neutral) and "becomes a threat" (detrimental). I'm also not excusing Solas here, just elaborating on what Shechinah said.

[Shechinah]

Actually, it's important to see this from Solas' perspective - that spirits are people like any other. Taking that into account, those mages are actually guilty of torture and murder, albeit unintentionally, from ignorance. And because no institution (besides possibly the Inquisition) will ever try these mages for these crimes, Solas is forced to either exact justice/vengeance on them himself, or let them off without punishment.
 
Because I agree that spirits are people, I can see how this is a terrible situation to deal with. Imagine someone (accidentally or not) killing one of your friends, but you know that the court won't prosecute the killer because your friend was BLANK. That said, I don't ever let him kill them.

 

Solas: "Those mages knew nothing of my friend. Worse, they did not care."

 

I don't let him kill them either. It has not fitted with any of my characters so far either.

[midnight tea]

Eh, to be fair, many of those things are still happening. We haven't reached those goals yet.

 

I know But it only strengthens my point. We have palpable evidence that things I mention are beneficial for mankind, yet either the world-wide consensus on that hasn't been reached or people have different ideas on the matter... or just don't want to change :/

[BansheeOwnage]

And therein is my point of contention with you. You believe that we can't judge him yet. I disagree. He has stated that this world must die. To me, that is more than sufficient to condemn him to death, good intentions or not. I respect the points you have made, but I do not agree with your assessment of the situation.

Holy crap, do you realize what you're saying? So anyone in real life who gives a negative opinion, plans or even says they plan on doing something bad deserves punishment up to and including death? No, what they need is help (not help doing what they planned mind you, in case that wasn't clear for some reason).

[Illegitimus]

I haven't. I don't blame him for what happened at Elvenhan since the consequences of his actions then were apparently accidental. This time however he knows what will happen, but disregards it as an acceptable loss and that I will not tolerate. 

 

I've stated multiple times that in my opinion the only reason he tells us anything in Trespasser is for the player's benefit, not the Inquisitor's. It's so the player knows where Bioware is going with this story. Solas has no reason to tell the Inquisitor any of this, and it goes against his character of keeping things close to the chest. He even mentions in that conversation how he doesn't want to give the Inquisitor too much, and yet then tells us his whole plan.

 

 

He most certainly does not tell us his whole plan.   In fact he's kind of vague about what precisely it is that he intends to do.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I know But it only strengthens my point. We have palpable evidence that things I mention are beneficial for mankind, yet either the world-wide consensus on that hasn't been reached or people have different ideas on the matter... or just don't want to change :/

Doesn't mean you should consider their views invalid and just do what you want to do like Solas is. 

[Lezio]

Solas: "Those mages knew nothing of my friend. Worse, they did not care."

 

I don't let him kill them either. It has not fitted with any of my characters so far either.

 

That's quite ironic, coming from him.

[Macha'Anu]

Normally I'd refute. Say that "women aren't like that" and give a counterargument...but then I remember how popular "50 Shades of Grey" was and then I just stop.
But I think the important thing to remember is that, as you said, being aloof and confident should never be interpreted as being a jerk and vice versa.

50 shades is about a woman who consents to her relationship. I know I know sounds crazy but some women just like to be submissive. That's their buisness.
**********************
Back on topic, wow. Some people take this video game character thing to some pretty crazy levels. I wonder if the VA and the devs get a kick outta some of this forum banter. I read and facepalm, read and giggle, read and nod in agreement then I read and imagine throat punching. Some of you are just rude and mean. Smh.


* I will redeem you Solas!*

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Holy crap, do you realize what you're saying? So anyone in real life who gives a negative opinion, plans or even says they plan on doing something bad deserves punishment up to and including death? No, what they need is help (not help doing what they planned mind you, in case that wasn't clear for some reason).

If someone says they are going to blow up a building, are you saying they shouldn't be stopped and dealt with only after they do what they said they were going to do? Not immediately killed sure, but at least apprehended. 

[Sah291]

The writers said they intentionally toned down his lying, to make him more interesting and less stereotypical I think. He's more straightforward.

Still, I think he's supposed to be seen as manipulative and he still lies indirectly. In fact "indirect" is how I would describe Solas. He seems to like to do things indirectly through agents, while he acts behind the scenes, and letting people be fooled by their own assumptions. That seems like how he operates....Cory was just a fall guy meant to unlock the orb. Plus working this way benefits him, since the trail never leads back. Well, usually anyway.

So yeah, I think he's a liar and he's good at it. At some point he might have decided to use that to help people instead of taking advantage of them, when he wanted to free the slaves. Maybe at Mythal's behest or something. We don't really know. But whatever the case, he can't stop himself anymore.

[Hellion Rex]

So anyone in real life who gives a negative opinion, plans or even says they plan on doing something bad deserves punishment up to and including death? 

Tone down the condescension, please.  I am talking about one person, one incident, one situation. Solas has stated that the current world must die, what equates to genocide, killing extraordinarily large amounts of people. I would most definitely have no issues killing him if he intends to go through with that plan.

[roselavellan]

We can't?

 

And about the greater good, isn't his goal just to save his people, with the side-effect of Thedas succumbing to inevitable chaos? Not sure if there's a greater good in that. Greater good for Solas and his people, yeah sure, but something tells me we won't be Solas or Solas' people in DA4. We gun watch the world burn and die so that our superiors, ancient elves, can live on!

 

What we know right now is limited vaguely to him wanting to somehow "restore the elves". So... restore in what way? Is he trying to save ancient elven lives? How many? Is he trying to restore the elves so that modern elves also benefit from this greater good?

 

I agree it seems like bad news for the modern humans and dwarves of Thedas. Hasn't happened yet though.

 

And therein is my point of contention with you. You believe that we can't judge him yet. I disagree. He has stated that this world must die. To me, that is more than sufficient to condemn him to death, good intentions or not. I respect the points you have made, but I do not agree with your assessment of the situation.

 

Most justice systems in this world do not condemn people without facts, and at the very least, a crime.

 

True, we can't condemn him for things he hasn't done yet. However, it's not as if we can't judge him for the things he has done before. And compare him to other cases in-universe.

 

-He defies powers that be and ends up causing a terrible disaster that changes the world forever. Check.

-Considers his people superior, wants to restore the old empire, no, make it even better than before. Check.

-His way to do that involves tinkering with the Veil, potentially causing a world cataclysm. Check.

-When he's weak, he deceives the heroes and pretends to be another person so he can continue his plans. Check.

-Creates a network of secret agents to do his bidding. Check.

-Cares for some of his allies, but won't hesitate to use them as disposable tools if he needs it. Check.

 

The catch? All those points weren't for Solas. They were for Corypheus. But as with the Blackwall example mentioned several posts ago, the presentation is what really matters. That's why Solas is a fascinating character while Corypheus is... well, Corypheus.

 

You forgot to include the fact that Solas freed his people from slavery, and truly cares about people, even, though ostensibly to a lesser extent, the not-people

[dawnstone]

50 shades is about a woman who consents to her relationship. I know I know sounds crazy but some women just like to be submissive. That's their buisness.
**********************
Back on topic, wow. Some people take this video game character thing to some pretty crazy levels. I wonder if the VA and the devs get a kick outta some of this forum banter. I read and facepalm, read and giggle, read and nod in agreement then I read and imagine throat punching. Some of you are just rude and mean. Smh.


* I will redeem you Solas!*

The devs don't really come here any longer, it's too loosely moderated. The only places they seem to communicate with the fans any more, are on twitter, or on reddit.

 

Active threads can get a bit rowdy, it's true, but people only come back to them because they enjoy that type of discussion. At least, I hope they enjoy it...   

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You forgot to include the fact that Solas freed his people from slavery, and truly cares about people, even, though ostensibly to a lesser extent, the not-people

I'd say Corypheus cares more about people than Solas does. At least he offers 'salvation' to everyone equally. "Bow before your new god and be spared.". 

[Lezio]

Most justice systems in this world do not condemn people without facts, and at the very least, a crime.

 
I think the whole Corypheus screwup is more than enough, especially since he's quite unapologetic about it and his master-plan, from a regular Theodosian perspective, doesn't differ much from Cory's

You forgot to include the fact that Solas freed his people from slavery, and truly cares about people, even, though ostensibly to a lesser extent, the not-people

Also, Solas destroyed everything, his People too, once the Evanuris killed Mythal, dealing him a personal loss. As i said many times, for me most of Solas' big decisions are rash and selfish

[roselavellan]

Tone down the condescension, please.  I am talking about one person, one incident, one situation. Solas has stated that the current world must die, what equates to genocide, killing extraordinarily large amounts of people. I would most definitely have no issues killing him if he intends to go through with that plan.

 

If that turns out to be the only way to stop him from carrying out his plans, I'm sure most would agree with you. But that still doesn't mean he deserves judgment now.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If that turns out to be the only way to stop him from carrying out his plans, I'm sure most would agree with you. But that still doesn't mean he deserves judgment now.

Yes it does. He is already responsible for the death and suffering of tens of thousands. And he has announced plans to do exponentially more. That is more than enough for a court in our world and Thedas' to convict him. 

[Hellion Rex]

 

Most justice systems in this world do not condemn people without facts, and at the very least, a crime.

Different world, different rules. Solas is a man capable of supernatural feats that most definitely are not a thing in our world. And he has states that he plans to use his powers to kill on an unprecedented scale. Since he has not stated any plans to stop the coming genocide, then I have no reason to halt my plans to stop him and protect the people of Thedas.

[Hellion Rex]

If that turns out to be the only way to stop him from carrying out his plans, I'm sure most would agree with you. But that still doesn't mean he deserves judgment now.

Again though, that's your belief, not mine. 

 

Not trying to be rude, cause I respect your opinons, your beliefs.   

I simply just disagree with you.

[Medhia_Nox]

So you're able to forgive a person who "has no free will", but you can't find it in you to forgive a person who - for one reason or another - feels like he has no choice?

Interesting...

 

Nope, because people who feel like they have no choice usually use that as a justification for selfishness.

 

- If he's doing it so some trapped elves can populate a devastated Thedas.  For me, that's selfish.  He's not doing it because it's right.  He's doing it because he feels empathy for the elves over modern people.

 

- If he's doing it because he believes modern people are lessers to non-Veil peoples - again, for me that's selfish.  Who is this elf that he gets to decide?

I have had no evidence that his actions are for any altruistic reason.  At the present stage - any repopulation by ancient elves is an invasion.  There is no "supposed to be" when it comes to sapient creatures... as you already stated, it is amazing what people consider as "fact" when in reality it is just the make believe of their time. 

 

Concerning Irena Sendler:  We're comparing Solas to the plight of the Jews now?

 

Also... just because Solas "approves" doesn't mean he "cares".  Sociopaths have intentions, desires, ambitions.  Sociopaths tend not to like to be corralled in their thinking - it's no stretch for one to prefer liberating thought where nobody tells you you're wrong.  That he likes people that have tendencies similar to his own is no great stretch for a sociopath. 

 

And I've played the character who disagrees with him... and we were enemies... so much so he had to go out of his way in a cutscene to tell me off because he didn't approve... so anyone telling me he's okay with being disagreed with is wrong.
 

[midnight tea]

Not by the people she lied to, no. The Gestapo definitely saw her as untrustworthy once they learned of the truth. 

 

Yes, someone can have noble reasons for lying, but that still undermines their trustworthiness to the people they are lying to. There is a reason why in stories there are people that can't fully trust someone who say hides their real identity from them, even though the person can be hiding that for noble reasons like protecting those close to them. The people can still like and support them, but they don't necessarily trust them. 

 

Yet the people whom she helped she proved to be not just trustworthy, but a literal lifesaver and a symbol of nobility, bravery and compassion for people beyond those she helped. Nor I think you'd find many who'd care about who Gestapo deemed as worthy of trust, seeing what they did, or were involved in. So I don't think anyone, especially one who values human life or compassion, would have problem trusting Irena Sendler - in fact her actions would indeed be a proof of her trustworthiness. 

 

And we're not talking about trustworthiness between Sendler and Gestapo members, but a situation where the field is much more evened out and complex - it's reasonable to assume that Inquisition member wouldn't trust Solas after current reveals, but this may indeed change after future reveals of actions. It happened, after all, both in case of Iron Bull or Blackwall, depending on their personal quest outcomes. In fact Solas's actions in Trespasser (saving Inky and South) in itself can be totally read as a gesture of goodwill, despite troublesome revelations about his plans.

 

 

Yes it is. And if you read above you'll know I do not see Solas as a sociopath, instead at most just having some sociopathic tendencies. So there's no point continuing this line of dialogue since we both agree on that. 

 

Though I discount the approval system with him, since that can just be his persona approving of those things. Vivienne approves too, yet has a dialogue about how it is a waste of time. So she only approves because it makes the Inquisition and thus herself look good. Solas' approval can be a similar thing. Not saying it is, just it can be. Again, hard to trust someone who lies and manipulates. 

 

But the approval system wasn't built to be "manipulated" by a character who lies or manipulates - it's an out-of-universe, 4th-wall-breaking meter of what people in-universe really think or approve of. They're not aware of it, so they can't manipulate it.

 

Even Vivienne saying it's a waste of time to save people at Haven and then approval meter showing approval of your actions actually works to her benefit, because it shows that despite her coldness she indeed cares. That hidden, suppressed caring is later supported in-game by Cole's comments (when he's human and he reveals that Vivienne worries about him or what he reveals from her past), he tentative friendship with Inky or deep love between her and Bastien de Ghislain.

 

Besides, you're talking a singular case as opposed to dozens, if not hundreds, bigger or smaller approvals from Solas that can't be explained by anything other than genuine caring.

[roselavellan]

Yes it does. He is already responsible for the death and suffering of tens of thousands. And he has announced plans to do exponentially more. That is more than enough for a court in our world and Thedas' to convict him. 

 

Hmm, if you're talking about the orb incident, then he would only be guilty if he foresaw that unlocking the orb would cause other people (aside from Corypheus) to die. Do we yet know if he expected Corypheus to use it at the Conclave? And tens of thousands? A bit of an exaggeration, perhaps?