He's also the one who said that he 'destroyed the world of elves' - yet the world still exists; in fact he saved it from something worse. Context! It matters.
He destroyed the world of the elves since he splitted in two their world and forced their civilization to crumble as a result of it a new world was created,not to mention that you have no proof that he saved it from something worse.
Hmm, if you're talking about the orb incident, then he would only be guilty if he foresaw that unlocking the orb would cause other people (aside from Corypheus) to die. Do we yet know if he expected Corypheus to use it at the Conclave? And tens of thousands? A bit of an exaggeration, perhaps?
If you give someone nuclear launch codes, you are responsible for when that nuke is used regardless if you think they would use them or not.
And no, tens of thousands is not an exaggeration when it comes to the repercussions. If anything that is an understatement.
Hmm, if you're talking about the orb incident, then he would only be guilty if he foresaw that unlocking the orb would cause other people (aside from Corypheus) to die. Do we yet know if he expected Corypheus to use it at the Conclave? And tens of thousands? A bit of an exaggeration, perhaps?
I'd argue a couple of thousand, at least. We have the Conclave, we have those the Venatori and Red Templars have killed (across Thedas), and we have the Grey Wardens and those they have sacrificed, and we have those killed in the Emerald Graves and the Arbor Wilds. I think 10s of 1000s is a stretch, but I think a couple of thousand is certainly fair.
Yet the people to whom she helped she proved to be not just trustworthy, but a literal lifesaver and a symbol of nobility, bravery and compassion for people beyond those she helped. Nor I think you'd find many who'd care about who Gestapo deemed as worthy of trust, seeing what they did, or were involved into. So I don't think anyone, especially one who values human life or compassion, would have problem trusting Irena Sendler - in fact her actions would indeed be a proof of her trustworthiness.
You'll note she didn't lie to the people she helped or those who saw what she did as right.
And we're not talking about trustworthiness between Sendler and Gestapo members, but a situation where the field is much more evened out and complex - it's reasonable to assume that Inquisition member wouldn't trust Solas after current reveals, but this may indeed change after future reveals of actions. It happened, after all, both in case of Iron Bull or Blackwall, depending on their personal quest outcomes. In fact Solas's actions in Trespasser (saving Inky and South) in itself can be totally read as a gesture of goodwill, despite troublesome revelations about his plans.
And as I have said numerous times, when or if such information becomes available, my opinion will change accordingly.
No, they can't. He didn't do it for them. He did it for himself.
He destroyed the world of the elves since he splitted in two their world and forced their civilization to crumble as a result of it a new world was created,not to mention that you have no proof that he saved it from something worse.
This is fair. We don't know all the facts of what particular issue that the Evanuris were digging up that truly forced his hand. We know they killed Mythal yes, but I think that was merely the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. I think there was more going on. The only definite fact is that Mythal was "killed" and the Veil went up. We need more information about what was going on.
If you give someone nuclear launch codes, you are responsible for when that nuke is used regardless if you think they would use them or not.
And no, tens of thousands is not an exaggeration when it comes to the repercussions. If anything that is an understatement.
Here's the wiki on mens rea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
You are only guilty if one could reasonably foresee the consequences. So I'd say, to use an extreme example, if you gave the nuclear launch codes to your 10 year old niece as a joke, and somehow miraculously she managed to launch the nuke, then I think one could argue you lack the necessary intent. Not so if you gave the codes to a terrorist.
Here's the wiki on mens rea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
You are only guilty if one could reasonably foresee the consequences. So I'd say, to use an extreme example, if you gave the nuclear launch codes to your 10 year old niece as a joke, and somehow miraculously she managed to launch the nuke, then I think one could argue you lack the necessary intent. Not so if you gave the codes to a terrorist.
I said responsible, not guilty. Big difference.
And Corypheus fits the latter, not former example.
Here's the wiki on mens rea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
You are only guilty if one could reasonably foresee the consequences. So I'd say, to use an extreme example, if you gave the nuclear launch codes to your 10 year old niece as a joke, and somehow miraculously she managed to launch the nuke, then I think one could argue you lack the necessary intent. Not so if you gave the codes to a terrorist.
Come on, Cory is an idiot but he's certainly not a 10 year-old with pigtails 
Here's the wiki on mens rea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
You are only guilty if one could reasonably foresee the consequences. So I'd say, to use an extreme example, if you gave the nuclear launch codes to your 10 year old niece as a joke, and somehow miraculously she managed to launch the nuke, then I think one could argue you lack the necessary intent. Not so if you gave the codes to a terrorist.
Here's my response to your use of the legal term: a man with supernatural powers, who absorbed even more magic from one of the strongest entities ever seen, with access to an unparalleled network of interdimensional portals, has decreed that he will destroy this current world. Given these facts and applying them to the framework that you have given, I would argue that it's more than reasonably foreseeable that he would go through with that threat. And I easily would find him legally culpable for attempted murder and would charge him as such.
Attempted murder also requires evidence that he has gone through substantial steps in preparation to commit murder. Killing Flemeth and getting that power boost, giving Corypheus the Orb, reactivating the eluvian network, and his own spoken word telling us his plan would be more than enough to convict him in a court of law.
And if you're gonna cite mens rea, at least try to find a more credible source than Wikipedia.
Edit: Was looking for a better source.
https://www.law.corn...du/wex/mens_rea
I'd argue a couple of thousand, at least. We have the Conclave, we have those the Venatori and Red Templars have killed (across Thedas), and we have the Grey Wardens and those they have sacrificed, and we have those killed in the Emerald Graves and the Arbor Wilds. I think 10s of 1000s is a stretch, but I think a couple of thousand is certainly fair.
Yeah, the explosion at the Conclave could be pinned on him, perhaps. Although he didn't want the orb to explode with other people around, it was not improbable that that would happen. Not the rest, though, since no one could have known that Corypheus would survive (and then raised a Venatori/Red Templar army etc).
Yeah, the explosion at the Conclave could be pinned on him, perhaps. Although he didn't want the orb to explode with other people around, it was not improbable that that would happen. Not the rest, though, since no one could have known that Corypheus would survive (and then raised a Venatori/Red Templar army etc).
Hold up. I'm pretty sure Solas never mentions whether or not he cared if the Orb exploded with other people around though.
Hold up. I'm pretty sure Solas never mentions whether or not he cared if the Orb exploded with other people around though.
He didn't. He wouldn't care since at the time he didn't even see people as people.
Nope, because people who feel like they have no choice usually use that as a justification for selfishness.
That is pure BS. People can feel that they have no choice for variety of things - or do you really want to imply that victims of abuse in relationship feel they have no choice but to stay with their abuser "out of selfishness", rather than having their sense of self-worth undermined, or sometimes being literally blackmailed (threatening to hurt or take away children, for example) into it???
Or what about lack of choice in other situations - I've already mentioned that during WWII people in my country sometimes had no choice but to choose between their family members and friends.
- If he's doing it so some trapped elves can populate a devastated Thedas. For me, that's selfish. He's not doing it because it's right. He's doing it because he feels empathy for the elves over modern people.
BS again. We don't know yet his full motivations, no anywhere he stated that he does everything "so some trapped elves can populate devastated Thedas". That is pure conjecture.
- If he's doing it because he believes modern people are lessers to non-Veil peoples - again, for me that's selfish. Who is this elf that he gets to decide?
No, he believes that restoring the conscious connection to the Fade is crucial for one reason or another - it's not as simple as 'viewing others as lesser'; not when he includes these 'lesser others' as people he's done (what he perceives) injustice to.
Also - okay, he may not be the one to decide who is lesser or not. But who are you to decide to condemn those who still may wait for Soals to save them, or improve the lives of elves or spirits alike?
I have had no evidence that his actions are for any altruistic reason. At the present stage - any repopulation by ancient elves is an invasion. There is no "supposed to be" when it comes to sapient creatures... as you already stated, it is amazing what people consider as "fact" when in reality it is just the make believe of their time.
... Huh, talk about deeming other people as lesser and taking away their right to live.
Concerning Irena Sendler: We're comparing Solas to the plight of the Jews now?
Huh... you seem to not have read my full comment, instead choosing just the beginning of it and ignoring me saying that I'm not claiming that Solas does that exact same thing; it was merely an example of showing that people can lie doing even the noblest of things.
Also... just because Solas "approves" doesn't mean he "cares". Sociopaths have intentions, desires, ambitions. Sociopaths tend not to like to be corralled in their thinking - it's no stretch for one to prefer liberating thought where nobody tells you you're wrong. That he likes people that have tendencies similar to his own is no great stretch for a sociopath.And I've played the character who disagrees with him... and we were enemies... so much so he had to go out of his way in a cutscene to tell me off because he didn't approve... so anyone telling me he's okay with being disagreed with is wrong.
.... So he's a sociopath who likes a person who cares about people, which somehow means that they're sociopaths too...?
Mental gymnastics ahoy!
The approval system is generally built to show what companions care about - and suddenly it's different for Solas? Yeah, sorry, no. There's just too much of separate occasions during which Solas approves of either intelligence, curiosity or compassion to give us a good picture what he cares about or likes about Inky.
Also - it really is amazing where people can take "Solas is okay with disagreeing" must mean that he'd approve or be neutral of any decision Inky would make or don't mind any thing they'd say to him, even if they downright insult him. Yeah, that's not how it works, it never did, and claiming so to discredit the entire notion constitutes a strawman.
Solas disagrees and dislikes people for what he deems as making stupid, thoughtless or short-sighted decisions, or those who downright refuse to be open-minded towards Fade or spirits, but you really have to work towards making him dislike you and ignore or disagree with everything he has to say.. which, guess what, is also what happens with many other companions. Thing is he'd disagree, but at the same time he won't be allergic to disagreement - he hardly ever greatly disapproves, or even disapproves of things and is pretty much always open and ready for discussion, provided Inky wasn't the one who shut the topic (which is one of things Solas disapproves the most, showing how much he values continuing dialogue, even if you still keep disagreeing).
I'm really not trying to come off as an ass tonight, I apologize if it's coming across that way.
He destroyed the world of the elves since he splitted in two their world and forced their civilization to crumble as a result of it a new world was created,not to mention that you have no proof that he saved it from something worse.
We do, actually. We know the Evanuris fought the Titans and done something bad to them and possibly the dwarves. We know that Solas was there, frantically shutting the ancient mine (which we visit in Trespasser), to prevent some sort of "angry energy" from escaping, and leaves a rune - MILLENIA before Inquisition and even prior to his rebellion - with description that deems Evanuris responsible for doing something that would eventually destroy the world if they won't be stopped. From hints in the game we also know that Solas also appears to know a lot about both Evanuris and the Blight itself. That you don't believe him at this point appears to be sort of a given - trying to convince you seems like wasted effort, just like it seems to be a wasted effort to point out that (again) you ignore the "saving the world (even if it came at expense of Elvenhan)" part to completely overfocus on destruction.
Come on, Cory is an idiot but he's certainly not a 10 year-old with pigtails
As I recall you were the one who at one point compared him to a child Solas gave a gun to...
Here's my response to your use of the legal term: a man with supernatural powers, who absorbed even more magic from one of the strongest entities ever seen, with access to an unparalleled network of interdimensional portals, has decreed that he will destroy this current world. Given these facts and applying them to the framework that you have given, I would argue that it's more than reasonably foreseeable that he would go through with that threat. And I easily would find him legally culpable for attempted murder and would charge him as such.
Attempted murder also requires evidence that he has gone through substantial steps in preparation to commit murder. Killing Flemeth and getting that power boost, giving Corypheus the Orb, reactivating the eluvian network, and his own spoken word telling us his plan would be more than enough to convict him in a court of law.
And if you're gonna cite mens rea, at least try to find a more credible source than Wikipedia.
Edit: Was looking for a better source.
Sounds like mere preparation to me. Also, we don't know what really happened with Flemeth.
Edit: Also, isn't attempted murder a less serious crime than murder? Condemn him for wanting (edit: planning) to destroy current Thedas if you like, but that's still not the same as genocide.
Hold up. I'm pretty sure Solas never mentions whether or not he cared if the Orb exploded with other people around though.
No, he didn't. I'm assuming this from what we know of his character, a character that Bioware apparently took great pains to portray as compassionate.
Not sure how you can blame Solas for all the deaths that take place in the game. The specific people who died at the conclave, I can kinda understand, but not the rest. Solas didn't convince Cory to become what he was, he just gave him the means for the original explosion. If Solas hadn't given Cory the orb, Cory would have just found another way to make the entire game happen.
I'm really not trying to come off as an ass tonight, I apologize if it's coming across that way.
No, I thought your posts have been much more civil than some on this thread 
@midnight tea: I am sure you are aware that the best liars use the truth a lot.
That he obfuscates the truth from the beginning of the game truly doesn't bother you?
Do you see your Inquisitors as not worthy or capable of handling truth at that moment?
Not sure how you can blame Solas for all the deaths that take place in the game. The specific people who died at the conclave, I can kinda understand, but not the rest. Solas didn't convince Cory to become what he was, he just gave him the means for the original explosion. If Solas hadn't given Cory the orb, Cory would have just found another way to make the entire game happen.
The death and suffering in Inquisition I find Solas responsible for are the Conclave and as a result of the Breach and rifts, since all those are a direct consequence of him giving the orb to Corypheus.
You'll note she didn't lie to the people she helped or those who saw what she did as right.
Actually, she did. She and her comrades have oftentimes concealed original identity of children when she placed them in Polish families or orphanages, for their safety. She kept the track of the names and documents whenever she could, but their identity and returning them to their real families was a matter left to be solved AFTER the war.
I'd also like to point out that we have a very vaguely similar example of 'lying for safety' in base game, courtesy of Tal Vashoth IB. He lures Inquisitor on the battlements in case he needed backup when he deals with spies sent to assassinate him, and didn't warn Inky about it. Why? Because Inquisitor hasn't been trained for years to school his/her facial expressions, which would mean that the Qunari spies would know right away that something is up - that would not only doubly endanger IB and Inky, it'd let (at least those two) Qunari spies stay active in Inquisition to however harmful result.
Sometimes a person not knowing the full plan is a good thing, because them knowing things can be a hindrance rather than a help.
It was similar in Trespasser (or in fact base game) - it would likely play out much more differently if Solas just appeared out of nowhere hauling the body of a dead Qunari and declaring his intentions. Suddenly the Inquisition would have to split their resources trying to figure out and stop a potential double threat and eventually succeeding in none. With the way it played out the Inquisition managed to focus their efforts on stopping the Qunari (and most of the bombs were already in place, ready to explode, so it was done in the near-last moment) and making sure they're there to stop whatever comes after them.
I see where you are both coming from, sometimes people can convince themselves they have no choice, when they really do, and either lack courage to make it, or are looking to justify doing something they know is wrong for selfish reasons.That is pure BS. People can feel that they have no choice for variety of things - or do you really want to imply that victims of abuse in relationship feel they have no choice but to stay with their abuser "out of selfishness", rather than having their sense of self-worth undermined, or sometimes being literally blackmailed (threatening to hurt or take away children, for example) into it???.
Sounds like mere preparation to me. Also, we don't know what really happened with Flemeth.
Edit: Also, isn't attempted murder a less serious crime than murder? Condemn him for wanting to destroy current Thedas if you like, but that's still not the same as genocide.
When I was using attempted murder, it was simply in response to the bringing up of real world justice systems by some people in this thread. In the real world, you could get him for attempted murder easily, though he obviously couldn't be convicted of first degree murder if he hasn't done anything. That said, preparation is more than enough for a charge of attempted murder though.
In Thedas, though, we are not bound by the constraints of the US Criminal Justice System (where I was drawing my definitions and explanations from), so we don't have to necessarily deal with attempted murder charges.
(just FYI, I'm working on my JD degree right now, that's why I was being a little picky with definitions of attempted murder and mens rea)
As I recall you were the one who at one point compared him to a child Solas gave a gun to...
I made an example like that, yes, but it was a completely different context. Within that same post i stated that Solas consider(s)ed modern-day people idiots, so, from his perspective, what he was doing was giving a gun to a child (i.e. an unknowledgeable individual, unfit to wield such a weapon)
My point, back then, was that Solas was arrogant and rash in his estimation of Cory (and also uncaring, but alreasy said that a few dozens times)
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