4630 réponses à ce sujet

[Lezio]

Also, for the record - Corypheus did not "outplay" Solas. Corypheus didn't even know Solas existed, and likely didn't know that the Orb was purposefully delivered to him. Corypheus isn't some master schemer - he's an idiot with a remarkable ability to not die, and ability that fooled Wardens and even previous player characters into accidentally helping him. The fact that his plans fell apart after a few prods from the Inquisitor (Who, by the way, is more-or-less Solas' tool to take care of Corypheus - so, you know, not being outplayed there either.) shows that he didn't know what he was doing.

 

I... I just sincerely do not get how anyone could possibly get mad at someone for not thinking "Hey, I think this mutant-y chap here might have the ability to body hop and thus survive giant magical explosions! Hmm, best rethink this plan then." Who would possibly come to that conclusion out of the blue? 

 

If you're gonna condemn Solas for that, then you have to condemn Hawke and the Wardens as well, because they fell for the same impossible-to-even-catch-really trap.

 

So, Cory outplayed Solas without even knowing he did so? Very much like him, isn't it?

 

Seeing Solas general knowledge of the "new world", or his lack thereof, because he had just woke up from centuries of sleep, i do think that maybe, just maybe, he should have worried about giving his orb to the mutant-y chap with enough power to levitate a raise castle in the sky

 

Especially since, y'know, Solas couldn't have possibly have missed the fact that Cory was kind of tainted, kind of ancient and, again, kind of powerful.

 

3 bad things in 1 stupid maniac do make, at least, 1 or 2 chances of things going wrong, right?

 

It's about risks and knowledge, and Solas cared about neither, he only cared about rushing his plans ahead, and in doing so he failed to accomplish those very plans and enabled Cory, and the demons, to kill lots of people (but he probably didn't care about the latter)

 

As always, this is my opinion

[Almostfaceman]

Where did Cory body jump to? Everybody but Cory and Inquisitor died at the Conclave. Unless he body jumped to one of those Wardens and then just ran away?

 

No, the Divine survived as well. We don't know, but his range is unlimited as he's powered by the red lyrium. 

[rapscallioness]

The Divine? The Divine was killed.

 

edit: but thnx for the responses everybody. i did not know cory's body jumping had unlimited range like that.

[Mistic]

Especially since, y'know, Solas couldn't have possibly have missed the fact that Cory was kind of tainted, kind of ancient and, again, kind of powerful.

 

No, no, you can't blame Solas for that since he couldn't know how dangerous a Tainted mage can be... except when, according to others, he totally does know more about the Blight's secrets than any other person in Thedas, including the Wardens.

[Almostfaceman]

The Divine? The Divine was killed.

 

edit: but thnx for the responses everybody. i did not know cory's body jumping had unlimited range like that.

 

Not until later, after the explosion. She dies helping the Inquisitor escape the Fade. 

[rapscallioness]

Not until later, after the explosion. She dies helping the Inquisitor escape the Fade. 

 

Oh! Oh, I see what you're getting at. You're right. Quizzy, Divine and Cory.

[Almostfaceman]

No, no, you can't blame Solas for that since he couldn't know how dangerous a Tainted mage can be... except when, according to others, he totally does know more about the Blight's secrets than any other person in Thedas, including the Wardens.

 

The only people we know of that knew anything about Corypheus was the highest ranks of the Wardens at Weisshaupt. The only thing we know they knew was that they regarded him as a unique darkspawn that could influence Wardens and they couldn't kill him. 

 

That anybody here would expect Solas to know only what the highest ranking Wardens knew (and kept secret) is totally silly. 

[Xerrai]

So, Cory outplayed Solas without even knowing he did so? Very much like him, isn't it?

 

Seeing Solas general knowledge of the "new world", or his lack thereof, because he had just woke up from centuries of sleep, i do think that maybe, just maybe, he should have worried about giving his orb to the mutant-y chap with enough power to levitate a raise castle in the sky

 

Especially since, y'know, Solas couldn't have possibly have missed the fact that Cory was kind of tainted, kind of ancient and, again, kind of powerful.

 

3 bad things in 1 stupid maniac do make, at least, 1 or 2 chances of things going wrong, right?

 

It's about risks and knowledge, and Solas cared about neither, he only cared about rushing his plans ahead, and in doing so he failed to accomplish those very plans and enabled Cory, and the demons, to kill lots of people (but he probably didn't care about the latter)

 

As always, this is my opinion

It actually might be possible that he didn't know of Coryphaeus. Or at least, not that much of him.

 

He only said he allowed the Venatori to locate the orb. It is unknown how much, exactly, he knew of Corypheaus at that time. He probably only knew he was the "Elder One" the Venatori constantly talk about. But it is safe to say that he at least knew he was a Tevinter magister.

 

But that he was an ancient magister, blighted and immortal probably came as a surprise. Or not. Depends on how good his intel was.

 

But yes. His plan was rushed, and there were grievous consequences because of it.

[Ellawynn]

So, Cory outplayed Solas without even knowing he did so? Very much like him, isn't it?

 

Seeing Solas general knowledge of the "new world", or his lack thereof, because he had just woke up from centuries of sleep, i do think that maybe, just maybe, he should have worried about giving his orb to the mutant-y chap with enough power to levitate a raise castle in the sky

 

Especially since, y'know, Solas couldn't have possibly have missed the fact that Cory was kind of tainted, kind of ancient and, again, kind of powerful.

 

3 bad things in 1 stupid maniac do make, at least, 1 or 2 chances of things going wrong, right?

 

It's about risks and knowledge, and Solas cared about neither, he only cared about rushing his plans ahead, and in doing so he failed to accomplish those very plans and enabled Cory, and the demons, to kill lots of people (but he probably didn't care about the latter)

 

As always, this is my opinion

 

Well... what precisely would you propose Solas should've done? Okay, yeah, investigate the world a little bit more's a good alternative, but given how his acceptance of modern Thedosians as people hasn't changed his course, I doubt it would've back then either. So... what else? Use the Orb as a paperweight, maybe? 

 

Corypheus maybe wasn't the best idea, but far as I can see, it was pretty much the only option to get the Orb open. You can say "Well something was bound to go wrong" is fine and dandy, but not very useful if you can't identity what and how. And Solas (Or anyone else) couldn't have possibly had the information to discern what would go wrong and how.

[Lezio]

It actually might be possible that he didn't know of Coryphaeus. Or at least, not that much of him.
 
He only said he allowed the Venatori to locate the orb. It is unknown how much, exactly, he knew of Corypheaus at that time. He probably only knew he was the "Elder One" the Venatori constantly talk about. But it is safe to say that he at least knew he was a Tevinter magister.
 
But that he was an ancient magister, blighted and immortal probably came as a surprise. Or not. Depends on how good his intel was.
 
But yes. His plan was rushed, and there were grievous consequences because of it.

 
Which is my point
His crime wasn't not knowing, it was not seeking that knowledge, and then evaluating it. Which is extremely ironic since his character is about knowledge, sharing it and asking for it.
It's part of the reason why i don't like him, really, he lectures and judges people on their wrong-doings while he does the exact same things, just worse (The Wardens, for example, saved the world 5 times, screwed up once[more time than once, but i hope you get my point] and -greatly disapproves- cuz they whould have known better )

Well... what precisely would you propose Solas should've done? Okay, yeah, investigate the world a little bit more's a good alternative, but given how his acceptance of modern Thedosians as people hasn't changed his course, I doubt it would've back then either. So... what else? Use the Orb as a paperweight, maybe?

Corypheus maybe wasn't the best idea, but far as I can see, it was pretty much the only option to get the Orb open. You can say "Well something was bound to go wrong" is fine and dandy, but not very useful if you can't identity what and how. And Solas (Or anyone else) couldn't have possibly had the information to discern what would go wrong and how.

Unwillingness to find a better way is not a reason, though, and neither is it saying that "Corypheus was the only option", because no one forced him, or even asked him, to put his plan in motion and, as i said, if the only way to further it involved risking the very world he's trying to save(/destroy) then, maybe, he should have looked harder, or indeed at all

[Hellion Rex]

No, the Divine survived as well. We don't know, but his range is unlimited as he's powered by the red lyrium. 

Huh, where are you getting that from? We have no indication at all as to the range of his power or that red lyrium would make it unlimited.

[midnight tea]

You are accusing beings(The Evanuris) that you don't know about something that you don't know based on speculations grasped from Solas perspective of what could have been if the veil was not created.
Those are just speculations of the speculations.

 

That's rich, coming from someone who doesn't just speculate but makes downright declarations about details of Solas's plans or motivations without knowing everything. 

 

So it's okay for you to announce your own speculations like they're things we can be certain of, but it's not okay for anyone else to even make "speculations" based on what we actually have in the game? Sorry, but even without Solas's input we know that Evanuris were false gods who enslaved entire populations (evidence of slave rebelion, codices). We know without Solas's input that they were fickle and prone to warmongering (codexes in Vir Dirthara). We know without Solas's input that they fought Titans (mine and codices). We know without Solas's input that they've murdered Mythal (Abelas, Flemythal). It's not information that can give us a full picture, but it's enough to conclude that Solas's claim and evidence we have on them so far seem to line up. It's hardly "speculation of a speculation" and saying so is nothing but a desperate attempt at dismissal with nothing to back it up.

[midnight tea]

No, no, you can't blame Solas for that since he couldn't know how dangerous a Tainted mage can be... except when, according to others, he totally does know more about the Blight's secrets than any other person in Thedas, including the Wardens.

 

Totally does know more about the Blight's secrets =/= knows absolutely everything about the Blight or who in the world is Blighted and to what extent they know how to use the Blight.

 

I mean, that's just silly. We know that he totally knows more about the Evanuris, yet he is apparently surprised that Mythal still endures. "Knowing more" or "a lot" doesn't mean that it suddenly gives him absolute knowledge. Like.. what's with the black-and-white thinking?

[Hellion Rex]

Totally does know more about the Blight's secrets =/= knows absolutely everything about the Blight or who in the world is Blighted and to what extent they know how to use the Blight.

I mean, that's just silly. We know that he totally knows more about the Evanuris, yet he is apparently surprised that Mythal still endures. "Knowing more" or "a lot" doesn't mean that it suddenly gives him absolute knowledge. Like.. what's with the black-and-white thinking?

Where does it say he was surprised about Mythal? He himself says "the first of my people do not die so easily", as if he had realized that she still lived on in some form.

[midnight tea]

Where does it say he was surprised about Mythal? He himself says "the first of my people do not die so easily", as if he had realized that she still lived on in some form.

 

He says so... in Trespasser. Long after he meets her. But in ToM he's both surprised that Sentinels are still alive, and when we enter the chamber with Well Of Sorrows, he whispers 'So Mythal endures' in a tone that sounds like amazement/pleasant surprise.

[Sah291]

Where does it say he was surprised about Mythal? He himself says "the first of my people do not die so easily", as if he had realized that she still lived on in some form.

At the Well of Sorrows.

They might not die easily, but that doesn't mean they can't. Or it might be because she has changed a lot, and is no longer just "Mythal" anymore, having merged with Flemeth. Maybe he's surprised the Well still exists and something of the old Mythal remains.

[Baalzie]

My excuse, real life humanity is always a slave working directly or indirectly for the war industial complex.  DAI reflects that with Bioware's always used hero archetypes thru out their games.

 

Solas would destroy that in a heartbeat, whats not to like in him and his fantasy?  Hell yes I want to play this out with him if Bioware can write an interesting sensible ongoing coherent script.  And that last part I doubt because they can't undermine the slave/military hero connection where we solely must be addicted to.  Way to dangerous.

Must be interesting living with a... ...mind such as yours...
Religion isn't always about gods and afterlife, sometimes it's about believing utter nonsense of other kinds as well, "knowing" you're right and everyone else just witless pawns....
/smirk

 

[Baalzie]

No, the Divine survived as well. We don't know, but his range is unlimited as he's powered by the red lyrium. 

Actually, nowhere is it stated as FACT the Divine survived the explosion. Remember the spirit? The one that looked exactly like the Divine? More likely it was said spirit who helped the Inky that time IN THE FADE as well. The fact that the inky says she helped him/her, well that's a side effect from believing what you see and want to believe. Especially true in the fade, it kinda' muddies the mind as evidenced in earlier titles.

The whole "going to the fade physically without the orb or mark is lethal" thing is kinda a point to the opposite as well. As stated more than once (albeit disproven by the dupes tossed into the fade with the inky) in the game.
Why else accept that Cory is gone just because he's sent to the fade? HIM especially? He's kinda not the guy who dies easily, dragon or no. He'd probably bash a few demons to submission and start a kingdom... *Expect "Corypheus the Abomination king" in next episode of Dragon Age:The return of the lore effups*

AND nowhere is it stated that it's the red lyrium that grants his ability that unlimited range. He had that unlimited range and ability before anyone ever saw red lyrium. The effect comes from storing part of his essence elsewhere. That's it. Range unlimited. He did it before he used the dragon, the dragon thing came later as  an extended middle finger to Dumat. How else would he know how to do it and what it'd do if he never tried it before?


Very easy to state things as facts, when one doesn't have the burden of evidence laid upon ones shoulders...

[midnight tea]

At the Well of Sorrows.

They might not die easily, but that doesn't mean they can't. Or it might be because she has changed a lot, and is no longer just "Mythal" anymore, having merged with Flemeth. Maybe he's surprised the Well still exists and something of the old Mythal remains.

 

Honestly, with the way the world has changed, be it under influence of Evanuris (we have no idea how the world changed under their rule, but we do know there are codexes that imply that many sentient beings go extinct, we know something happened to Titans, plus Patrick Weekes in one of last interviews pretty much said that they 'messed up the world') AND the Veil AND the fact that it's been thousands of years of separation of Fade from the world AND the Blight AND Titans stirring on top of that... AND that's without counting any other factors... it really is no wonder that it's hard to predict anything at this point, especially that a lot of DA plot-lines seems to rely on giant cosmic coincidences anyhow.

 

Like... a pair of Warden youngsters gets to be saved by Flemythal and with the help of treaties she preserved manages to stop the Blight almost before it even begins, only for Hawke becoming instrumental in discovering of Red Lyrium and releasing of Cory among other things, only for Inquisitor to barge into a ritual chamber at the very specific moment and surviving the subsequent blast, or encounter with Cory at Haven...

[midnight tea]

AND nowhere is it stated that it's the red lyrium that grants his ability that unlimited range. He had that unlimited range and ability before anyone ever saw red lyrium. The effect comes from storing part of his essence elsewhere. That's it. Range unlimited. He did it before he used the dragon, the dragon thing came later as  an extended middle finger to Dumat. How else would he know how to do it and what it'd do if he never tried it before?

Very easy to state things as facts, when one doesn't have the burden of evidence laid upon ones shoulders...

 

Well no, the effect does not come from "storing part of his essence somewhere else" - he didn't store anything anywhere else when Hawke woke him in his prison. That trick he's learned after partially tapping into Orb's power (Solas's banters) and it was eventually a trick that has undone him. Yet even then his ability to body-hop was *disrupted* (as described by Morrigan/Inky) for a short time, and not destroyed.

 

Evidence. All in game. Out of game we know that his ability was indeed only disrupted after the devs confirmed that on twitter (Darrah or Laidlaw IIRC).

 

As for 'how else would he know how to do it' - well, there must be a reason why Wardens locked him in his prison. But it's implied in game that Cory only partially understands the powers he wields.

[Sah291]

Honestly, with the way the world has changed, be it under influence of Evanuris (we have no idea how the world changed under their rule, but we do know there are codexes that imply that many sentient beings go extinct, we know something happened to Titans, plus Patrick Weekes in one of last interviews pretty much said that they 'messed up the world') AND the Veil AND the fact that it's been thousands of years of separation of Fade from the world AND the Blight AND Titans stirring on top of that... AND that's without counting any other factors... it really is no wonder that it's hard to predict anything at this point, especially that a lot of DA plot-lines seems to rely on giant cosmic coincidences anyhow.
 
Like... a pair of Warden youngsters gets to be saved by Flemythal and with the help of treaties she preserved manages to stop the Blight almost before it even begins, only for Hawke becoming instrumental in discovering of Red Lyrium and releasing of Cory among other things, only for Inquisitor to barge into a ritual chamber at the very specific moment and surviving the subsequent blast, or encounter with Cory at Haven...

Yeah I don't think he or anyone could have predicted all that stuff. I think he's just skilled at seeing and manipulating opportunities to his advantage, as they happen. He either has good luck...or really really bad luck, depending how you look at it, lol.

[BansheeOwnage]

Depends how far you are willing to go back to class something as a "direct consequence". You could always put the blame on those that invented the orbs, since mass destruction is the logical consequence of that.

 

The breach wasn't the direct result of using the orb, it was the result of the ritual being interrupted. So it was really a direct consequence of the Inquisitor. Obviously, it wasn't the Inquisitors fault, as they had no idea what was going on. They had no way to predict that, and I don't see how Solas could have predicted that Cory was immortal, that he would perform the ritual in a crowded place for no reason, and that it would then be interrupted. I can't blame someone for an event I think was completely unpredictable such as the breach. I kinda think the Conclave is partly his fault - I don't think he predicted Cory would perform the ritual in a such a crowded place, but he certainly wouldn't have acted differently if he had, so he gets blame for not properly taking precautions or caring about them there. At the end of the day though, the action was still taken by Cory, and Solas is not responsible for the actions another man took throughout the game.

You're totally right that the Inquisitor interrupting the ritual was an important factor there. I realized that part-way through writing my post (hadn't read the page yet) but figured I'd just leave it out for simplicity. So I'm glad you brought it up!

 

I don't really know why even calling Solas out as this kind of genocidalist motivated for spurious reasons individual is so complicated... I mean that's what he is, it really shouldn't be controversial.

Well, if you don't understand, you should read people's thoughts on why it's more complicated. If you did read them and still don't understand, well... I don't know.

 

I'll just say: He hasn't committed genocide and doesn't actually want to, so saying he's definitely genocidal is inaccurate.

 

idky but I giggled at this one lol. You make a really valid point heh

Ha, thanks. I was trying to make my point in a mildly amusing way

[BansheeOwnage]

In this case, one. Again I turn to my example of where it is akin to giving someone with bad intentions nuclear launch codes and them then nuking a city. You are partly responsible because you made the choice to give them the nuclear launch codes. 

 

Solas chose to give Corypheus the orb, not caring for his intentions, where he activated it, or how many would die as a result because that didn't matter. All that mattered to him was his precious orb being unlocked. 

Most of us seem to be in agreement that the deaths at the Conclave can be partially attributed to Solas. But anything past that gets muddy, especially since as far as I know, no one else died because of the Orb specifically.

 

I agree with the first part of your post, even though we don't think just how much time Cory took to put his plans into motion and how the orb affected such plans, but i don't with the latter.

I could understand it if we were blaming Solas for destroying the world of the elves and causing the Magisters' rise would be a stretch, it would be far too indirect to be believable. But we're not doing that, we're blaming Solas for what evil Cory did with the orb because he is to blame

See my response above.

 

 

I vote for making the same meme for Solas!

And so it shall be:

 

Well done!

 

Solas is hardly to blame for all the ills of Thedas. But we're not gonna sit idly by while he adds his BS to the pile. To hell with Solas and the Evanuris. They had their shot. They screwed it up, and they were nothing but smug, slaver filth that look down their noses at everybody else, and abused their power.

 

Sounds very familiar. Sounds like alot of situations in modern Thedas. This Time before the Veil was no better than current society. These ancient elves and all that were no better than the current inhabitants of Thedas. Though let them tell it, they're better than you.

I think you're misunderstanding Solas' goals. Solas doesn't want to restore the empire he helped destroy, that's ludicrous. He wants to restore the world to its default state, restore people's full conscious connection to the fade and magic, and stop the ancient Elvhen from dying out. None of that has anything to do with whether or not the people then were morally superior or whether their systems of government were better.

[Hellion Rex]

He wants to restore the world to its default state, restore people's full conscious connection to the fade and magic, and stop the ancient Elvhen from dying out. None of that has anything to do with whether or not the people then were morally superior or whether their systems of government were better.

Careful with wording here. You say the world's "default" state, which is potentially not a true statement. We don't know the world of the Evanuris is the "default" state of reality. Solas merely states "I would have restored the world of my time, the world of the elves".

[Almostfaceman]

Very easy to state things as facts, when one doesn't have the burden of evidence laid upon ones shoulders...

 

Golly, easy back on the throttle there. All you had to do was ask for sources. I've linked them before in other conversations. 

 

The red lyrium augments the power of Corypheus. He didn't have unlimited range before he tapped into this blighted lyrium. 

 

Solas: His true advantage is the red lyrium. It is corrupted by the Blight as he is, thus taps into its power twofold.

Solas: Whatever he was before, that is what makes him dangerous now.

http://dragonage.wik.../Solas/Dialogue

 

If either the Inquisitor or Morrigan drinks from the Well of Sorrows, they learn that Corypheus' dragon is not a true archdemon, but merely a facsimile of one made by corrupting an ordinary high dragon with red lyrium in which the magister invested his power. If the dragon is killed, then Corypheus' ability to leap into other bodies would be removed.

http://villains.wiki...d_Lyrium_Dragon

 

Then we have the dialogue in the Fade with the Spirit about our lost memories of the past:

@3:30

Inquisitor: They thought it was Andraste sending me from the Fade, but it was the Divine behind me. And then you... she died.

Spirit: Yes. 

 

The Spirit saw the sacrifice of the Divine and was inspired to emulate her when we next enter the Fade. The Spirit doesn't die until it throws itself into combat with the Nightmare demon.