4630 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Golly, easy back on the throttle there. All you had to do was ask for sources. I've linked them before in other conversations. 

 

The red lyrium augments the power of Corypheus. He didn't have unlimited range before he tapped into this blighted lyrium. 

 

Solas: His true advantage is the red lyrium. It is corrupted by the Blight as he is, thus taps into its power twofold.

Solas: Whatever he was before, that is what makes him dangerous now.

http://dragonage.wik.../Solas/Dialogue

 

However, none of that implies unlimited range AT ALL. All it says is that his powers were augmented by the Blighted substance, nothing more. 

[Almostfaceman]

However, none of that implies unlimited range AT ALL. All it says is that his powers were augmented by the Blighted substance, nothing more. 

 

Of course it does, he doesn't have unlimited range before, now he has this super power from red lyrium. The implication is clear. What else is the point of pointing out this power boost? Corypheus couldn't even influence the Wardens until they were right up in his prison and he can only jump into a Warden who's practically right next to his body after his defeat at the hands of Hawke. 

 

Red lyrium is clearly Corypheus's method to boost his power and he uses it on the dragon, the templars, the Wardens and spreads it throughout Thedas. It's all over the place at the remains of the Temple. 

 

There's simply no other reason to bring red lyrium into the story with relation to Corypheus. His major super powers on display are his dragon and his body jumping. 

 

Yeah, this clear connection can't be hand-waved away. 

[Aren]

 

Oh no, it seems many people suffered and died because of the Breach, which was a direct consequence of Solas giving Corypheus the Orb, which was a direct consequence of Solas not being powerful enough to unlock it, which was a direct consequence of him expending his energy trapping the Evanuris away, which was a direct consequence of them killing Mythal, which was a direct consequence of... a few thousand years earlier... which was a direct consequence of the Maker creating the world! Curse you, Maker, ruining things since the beginning of time!

 

In short: "In the beginning the world was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."

A sophism is  an argument specious and fallacious, apparently valid but actually founded on formal logic errors or linguistic ambiguities derived from an eristic attitude and intent of deliberately misleading.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this)is a sophism which consists in taking as the cause what is antecedent in a temporal scale, or pretend  that if an event is followed by another, then the first must be the cause of the second. Often the term is simplified post hoc.

This sophism is an error by adduction, because the temporal consequence seems to be the inherent causal relationship. The error is only to conclude in the order of events rather than take into account other factors that may exclude the relationship.

Having said that Solas is in part responsible for the  Breach and there are the extreme to categorize the events within a pattern of cause-effect.

[Aren]

 

BTW, there is no particular virtue in a "hard" way to acquire power compared to an "easy" way. How hard or easy something is to acquire is completely irrelevant as long as it is actually the same, and you'd be a fool to take the longer way if the result is no different than after taking the easy way. To think otherwise is a conceit of Protestant work ethics. The only difference is that things that actually need a lot of work to acquire are naturally valued higher in an economic sense. Still, the difference has no moral dimension. Powering your magic by human sacrifice would just be as evil if the ability to do that were very hard to acquire - and yes, some people would still do it if the reward was high enough.

Determination,firmness,responsibility and a far greater understanding of the goal that is being pursued are obtained through the hard work to reach it.The travel is equally important as the goal since the discovery does not consists in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.

[Secret Rare]

I think Morrigan or someone mentions that Corypheus' ability has no range limitations

This is based on what evidence?

Did we make  tests to discover it or it is based on the word of mouth?

[Almostfaceman]

 

This is based on what evidence?

Did we make  tests to discover it or it is based on the word of mouth?

 

 

Right here, where Morrigan is talking about how to defeat Corypheus. She discusses killing the red lyrium dragon and the Inquisitor asks

 

"You're sure? If there are no bodies for him to jump to..."

 

And Morrigan says "You assume there is a limit to the range of his power. There is not."

 

https://youtu.be/4Jat5ckbc78?t=2m6s

[dawnstone]

Careful with wording here. You say the world's "default" state, which is potentially not a true statement. We don't know the world of the Evanuris is the "default" state of reality. Solas merely states "I would have restored the world of my time, the world of the elves".

I do have a theory that Solas got the idea for cutting the world in half from Elgar'nan, who also created a Veil several thousand years previously, because he hated his father and Mythal had to beg him to put everything back.

[Secret Rare]

Right here, where Morrigan is talking about how to defeat Corypheus. She discusses killing the red lyrium dragon and the Inquisitor asks

 

"You're sure? If there are no bodies for him to jump to..."

 

And Morrigan says "You assume there is a limit to the range of his power. There is not."

 

https://youtu.be/4Jat5ckbc78?t=2m17s

Those are the voices of the pool of sorrow?

How did they know that?

Did they made tests on creatures like Corypheus?No that's why i said is based on word of mouth.

[BansheeOwnage]

Huh, where are you getting that from? We have no indication at all as to the range of his power or that red lyrium would make it unlimited.

There is an "indication", actually. It's outright stated by Morrigan who acquired the knowledge from the Well of Sorrows that his power doesn't have a range limit.

 

The whole "going to the fade physically without the orb or mark is lethal" thing is kinda a point to the opposite as well. As stated more than once (albeit disproven by the dupes tossed into the fade with the inky) in the game.

Well, if you think about it, Corypheus and company actually disproved that being in the fade physically is lethal, at least instantly lethal.

 

Careful with wording here. You say the world's "default" state, which is potentially not a true statement. We don't know the world of the Evanuris is the "default" state of reality. Solas merely states "I would have restored the world of my time, the world of the elves".

Don't we? Unless someone came before him and vastly altered reality and everyone forgot about it, which seems unlikely. Additionally, there is evidence that the world is "supposed" to be one realm instead of two.

[Almostfaceman]

 

Those are the voices of the pool of sorrow?

How did they know that?

Did they made tests on creatures like Corypheus?No that's why i said is based on word of mouth.

 

 

Doesn't matter, the information they provide is accurate, even when the Inquisitor drinks from the Well. That's all that matters from a story perspective.

 

So, I provide info from the game and you provide hand-waves. That's your right, but you don't base your skepticism on anything concrete. 

[BansheeOwnage]

 

If either the Inquisitor or Morrigan drinks from the Well of Sorrows, they learn that Corypheus' dragon is not a true archdemon, but merely a facsimile of one made by corrupting an ordinary high dragon with red lyrium in which the magister invested his power. If the dragon is killed, then Corypheus' ability to leap into other bodies would be removed.

http://villains.wiki...d_Lyrium_Dragon

Your info is good, but I need to correct the wiki on that last sentence. It's stated ingame that killing the dragon would only disrupt his body-hopping ability, not remove it.

 

A sophism is  an argument specious and fallacious, apparently valid but actually founded on formal logic errors or linguistic ambiguities derived from an eristic attitude and intent of deliberately misleading.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this)is a sophism which consists in taking as the cause what is antecedent in a temporal scale, or pretend  that if an event is followed by another, then the first must be the cause of the second. Often the term is simplified post hoc.

This sophism is an error by adduction, because the temporal consequence seems to be the inherent causal relationship. The error is only to conclude in the order of events rather than take into account other factors that may exclude the relationship.

Having said that Solas is in part responsible for the  Breach and there are the extreme to categorize the events within a pattern of cause-effect.

 

[Almostfaceman]

Your info is good, but I need to correct the wiki on that last sentence. It's stated ingame that killing the dragon would only disrupt his body-hopping ability, not remove it.

 

 

True but I chose not to quibble too much about that because the results amount to the same thing... the negation of the body-hopping for Corypheus during the last battle. 

[Secret Rare]

Doesn't matter, the information they provide is accurate, even when the Inquisitor drinks from the Well. That's all that matters from a story perspective.

 

So, I provide info from the game and you provide hand-waves. That's your right, but you don't base your skepticism on anything concrete. 

Accurate how if you can't even test their words?

I kill Corypheus into a place where his soul can't flee on the outside who's to say that he can stay as a ghost for the eternity rather than having his soul pass into the fade after a while for the lack of a body?

[BansheeOwnage]

True but I chose not to quibble too much about that because the results amount to the same thing... the negation of the body-hopping for Corypheus during the last battle. 

Indeed, I just wanted to make sure no one else would use that as the basis for an argument.

[Almostfaceman]

 

Accurate how if you can't even test their words?

I kill Corypheus into a place where his soul can't flee on the outside who's to say that he can stay as a ghost for the eternity rather than having his soul pass into the fade after a while?

 

 

And now you're just throwing out unsubstantiated what-if's. Which doesn't make any sense.

 

The information from the Well, whether from Morrigan or the Inquisitor, is accurate. It accurately points out information needed to take down Corypheus. All this is verifiable in-game. 

 

So keep hand-waving, but you have no reason to do so, since we have no indication whatsoever that the Well information was lies or inaccurate. 

[Secret Rare]

I'm merely analyzing the mechanics with whom Corypheus survive and pointed out  how much he can endure without a body.

That his body-switch has no range limit (according to whispers) doesn't explain all the implications of it  most importantly how much he can stay in that state without crossing the veil.

[lynroy]

I'm sorry, but do you mean how Corypheus survived and not "with whom"? :S That sentence you wrote doesn't make sense to me otherwise.

[Almostfaceman]

 

I'm merely analyzing the mechanics with whom Corypheus survive and pointed out  how much he can endure without a body.

That his body-switch has no range limit (according to whispers) doesn't explain all the implications of it  most importantly how much he can stay in that state without crossing the veil.

 

 

None of that is important for the story. For the story, all we need is a tactic to defeat Corypheus. Morrigan is giving us information directly related to defeating Corypheus. She rules out one tactic and offers another that will work. Since we can't isolate Corypheus from body-leaping by distance we do so by killing the red-lyrium dragon. 

 

No other aspects of the body-leaping magic are important for this part of the story. We don't care how it works, only if it works. 

 

The tactic offered by the Well knowledge is proven by us putting the tactic into practice. We go straight to killing his dragon. Killing his dragon works, we're able to kill him next. 

 

Wonder how it works all you want, but you have no grounds to call into question the veracity of the information of the Well. It was put to the test and passed.

[Ieldra]

That anybody here would expect Solas to know only what the highest ranking Wardens knew (and kept secret) is totally silly. 

Well...I think I'd expect Solas to do some research into the nature of the person he was to gift his orb. He can be excused, maybe, for not anticipating Corypheus' relative immortality, but I'd still say he made an avoidable mistake by not doing his research, especially since he slept for centuries and was probably completely ignorant of the Blight, and I'd expect him to be rather good at ferreting out secrets.

[Secret Rare]

 

None of that is important for the story. For the story, all we need is a tactic to defeat Corypheus. Morrigan is giving us information directly related to defeating Corypheus. She rules out one tactic and offers another that will work. Since we can't isolate Corypheus from body-leaping by distance we do so by killing the red-lyrium dragon. 

 

Which conveniently served the plot for the sole reason that he brought his dragon on the final assault otherwise farewell to the strategy...

 

 

Wonder how it works all you want, but you have no grounds to call into question the veracity of the information of the Well. It was put to the test and passed.

 

I can for the simple reason that nobody observed Corypheus in his ghost state and how much that state is sustainable in the physical world, they simply imply that it has no limit of durability into a ghost state(no range limit) which contradict the DA lore since souls can't afford to remain alone in the world.

[German Soldier]

I hope that the breach didn't freed accidentally an Evanuris alongside all those demons, after all it was like a small portal.

Since the Orb was the key to free the Evanuris who knows if one escaped because of the mess with the breach?

[Dragongirl24]

Wow every time i come online it's like 30 or 40 pages further. i cannot keep up with you lol and so that says it all Solas is very popular he is the most popular guy in Inquistion. 

[Shechinah]

Wow every time i come online it's like 30 or 40 pages further. i cannot keep up with you lol and so that says it all Solas is very popular he is the most popular guy in Inquistion. 

 

A lot of the pages stem from discussion about Solas' character including by those that like him and those that dislike him so the amount of pages or the frequency of posts are not so good an indication of how popular or well-liked his character is.

[Ieldra]

Wow every time i come online it's like 30 or 40 pages further. i cannot keep up with you lol and so that says it all Solas is very popular he is the most popular guy in Inquistion. 

It's always like this for controversial characters, not necessarily well-liked ones.

[German Soldier]

It's always like this for controversial characters, not necessarily well-liked ones.

There are a lot of controversial characters in DA noone has this amount of pages in a general discussion thread.