4635 réponses à ce sujet

[German Soldier]

Based on the Tranquil. There's a natural connection to the Fade for most races, to varying degree. Any race that dreams is going to lose a natural part of who they are. 

 

Thedas =/= real world. The Fade is a natural part of the world. Losing it would not be without consequence. 

 

 

 

 

 

The tranquil.

So far, only dwarves seem able to live naturally without a connection to the fade that does not impair their psyche. But unlike dwarves, all humans and elves that lack a conection to the fade have all been shown to be little more than unfeeling vessels.

 

Granted, all of these instances have come from the Right of Tranquility, but it still stands that there has been no record of a human/elf who has had their connection to the fade cut and still maintain their ability to feel emotion to a notable degree.

The rite of tranquility itself may be the cause of the tranquils issues rather than their separation from the fade.

All mundanes that can't do magic aren't tranquils and they don't suffer of dementia

Quite convenient use the tranquils but then forget all the mundanes.

[Almostfaceman]

 

The rite of tranquility may be the cause of the tranquils issues rather than their separation from the fade.

All mundans that can't do magic aren't tranquils.

 

 

You didn't read the link I provided. I can tell by how fast you responded. Read the link and you'll see how the "mundane's" are connected as well. 

[Xerrai]

 

The rite of tranquility may be the cause of the tranquils issues rather than their separation from the fade.

All mundans that can't do magic aren't tranquils.

 

What does that have to do with anything? Even mundanes have a connection to the fade, even though it is not as prominent nor as strong as the connection mages have.

 

So long as people have the capability to dream (dreams in this universe is the fade), that alone is proof that they have a connection to the fade.

 

And while you may be correct that the Rite may be what causes tranquil to be tranquil, it is still the only instance we have of any elves/humans being disconnected from the fade entirely.

[German Soldier]

You didn't read the link I provided. I can tell by how fast you responded. Read the link and you'll see how the "mundane's" are connected as well. 

I don't need to read something that i already read months ago.

 

What does that have to do with anything? Even mundanes have a connection to the fade, even though it is not as prominent nor as strong as the connection mages have.

 

So long as people have the capability to dream (dreams in this universe is the fade), that alone is proof that they have a connection to the fade.

 

 

mundanes are completely unaware when they are in the fade and they are unconscious thus they can't use magic but they don't suffer of dementia.

Strengthen the veil mean to make it so strong that mages will become mundanes 

This has nothing to do with tranquils which i presume are the way they are because the rite they undergo is crude.

[Xerrai]

I don't need to read something that i already read months ago.

 

Incorrect,mundanes are completely unaware when they are in the fade and they are unconscious thus they can't use magic but they don't suffer of dementia.

Ummm, no?

While they may be unable to recall what they dream about, but that they dream at all is a distinct indicator that they have a connection to the fade. May not be as strong as the connection mages have, but it is still a connection none the less.

 

But make no mistake. No one has ever claimed that a weak connection the fade causes dementia or anything like that. It is only when they are severed from the fade entirely (as in, unable to dream) they exhibit behavior that is wildly abnormal for most mortals (i.e. unable to show emotion).

[midnight tea]

I don't need to read something that i already read months ago.

 

mundanes are completely unaware when they are in the fade and they are unconscious thus they can't use magic but they don't suffer of dementia.

strengthen the veil means make it so strong that  mages  will become  mundanes.

 

"Being unaware of something" and "being cut from something" are two different things. 

[Almostfaceman]

I don't need to read something that i already read months ago.

 

 

Apparently you do. The Fade is necessary for dreams. What will happen to mundane's when they can't dream? 

 

By all means go mucking about with that. What could possibly go wrong? 

[Almostfaceman]

This has nothing to do with tranquils which i presume are the way they are because the rite they undergo is crude.

 

This is your head canon. Which is what you started off accusing someone else of:

 

 

 

Lobotomizing based on what evidence?

Your own interpretation of magic as some sort of  6th sense?

 

 

The Rite is a clear indicator of what happens to people when they're completely cut off from the Fade. 

[midnight tea]

Apparently you do. The Fade is necessary for dreams. What will happen to mundane's when they can't dream? 

 

By all means go mucking about with that. What could possibly go wrong? 

 

For me this is just silly. As far as we know the magic is an integral part of the world - was even before the revelations in Trespasser. Trying to cut the Fade away is effectively like trying to cut us away from sunlight or air.

 

And the "oh, magic has scoured the world so it has to go" argument - how many times we heard that argument against technology? How many times the accusation was leveled against humanity itself? Heck, in both universes.

[German Soldier]

"Being unaware of something" and "being cut from something" are two different things. 

When did i mention cut off?

Strengthen the veil to the point of making everyone unaware and with a weaker connection to the fade it means pretty much eliminate mages.

 

Ummm, no?

While they may be unable to recall what they dream about, that they dream at all is a distinct indicator that they have a connection to the fade. May not be as strong as the connection mages have, but it is still a connection none the less.

 

But make no mistake. No one has ever claimed that a weak connection the fade causes dementia or anything like that. It is only when they are severed from the fade entirely (as in, unable to dream) they exhibit behavior that is wildly abnormal for most mortals (i.e. unable to show emotion).

Ummm yes?the statement you quote is pretty much correct mundanes are unaware in the fade.

A stronger veil means that the connection with the fade  will be so weak that mages will cease to exist. 

[Almostfaceman]

 

When did i mention cut off?

 

 

 

Right here:

 

 

 

I'm one of the few anti-magic players that support to strengthen the veil or better to  cut off it from the world

At this point i cannot ignore that magic brought destruction and misery beyond the tolerable in Thedas  so let the spirits have the dream world but deny its use for the denizens of the physical world.

 

[Xerrai]

 

I'm one of the few anti-magic players that support to strengthen the veil or better to  cut off it from the world

At this point i cannot ignore that magic brought destruction and misery beyond the tolerable in Thedas  so let the spirits have the dream world but deny its use for the denizens of the physical world.

 

You uh....you sure you just said "strengthen the veil"? Because that's one thing. But "cut it off from the world" sounds distinctly like 'severing people from the fade entirely'.

[midnight tea]

The Rite is a clear indicator of what happens to people when they're completely cut off from the Fade. 

 

What's more, it CAN happen to "mundanes".

 

The Rite of Tranquility was invented by the Seekers - and we know that no mages have been accepted to ranks of Seekers for centuries. And if they undergo the process of Tranquility - and fail - they become Tranquil. 

 

http://dragonage.wik..._of_Tranquility

[German Soldier]

Right here:

cut off the veil not the fade.

In the sense of remaking the veil a second time stronger than it is since i don't know if the actual veil can be reinforced to that point or it need to be made from scratch.

[Xerrai]

 

Ummm yes?the statement you quote is pretty much correct mundanes are unaware in the fade.

A stronger veil means that the connection with the fade  will be so weak that mages will cease to exist. 

 

That mundanes are unaware in the fade does not mean that they don't have a connection to the fade. Again, dreaming in this universe literally means mentally visiting the fade. Weather they are conscious or unconscious is of no matter.

 

I'm not to sure what you're trying to argue here. That just because they are not conscious of their dreams they are not connected tot he fade? Or are you trying to imply that because they have no magic that their dreaming is not considered a legitimate connection to the fade?

[midnight tea]

 

cut off the veil not the fade.

In the sense of remaking the veil a second time stronger than it is.

 

You realize that this move also pretty much exterminates spirits? Cole tells us explicitly that without human minds and dreams the spirits have nothing.

[Xerrai]

 

cut off the veil not the fade.

In the sense of remaking the veil a second time stronger than it is since i don't know if the actual veil can be reinforced to that point or it need to be made from scratch.

 

Oh, THAT'S what you meant? (Haha. Talk about miscommunication. This entire time I thought you were talking about the fade.)

 

Unfortunately, cutting off the veil makes even less sense in this context. Because "cutting off" the veil makes it seem like you want to cleave the veil from the world. But it is the veil being 'close' to the world that it is able to hold back magic at all. It's no simple barrier, like a wall or window pane, it is a vibration that cleaves two sets of reality. Trying to "cut off" the veil would essentially mean something close to removing it.

 

(I think we've been over this before, but is English you're first language? I feel like there is language barrier going on sometimes.)

[German Soldier]

 

 

I'm not to sure what you're trying to argue here. That just because they are not conscious of their dreams they are not connected tot he fade? Or are you trying to imply that because they have no magic that their dreaming is not considered a legitimate connection to the fade?

Mundanes are unconscious in the fade because their connection to it is weaker than mages as a result of it they can't do magic.

A stronger veil will render mages like mundanes they will be able to enter the fade but they will not be able to use magic in the world thus they will not be able to return mages anymore.

 

You realize that this move also pretty much exterminates spirits? Cole tells us explicitly that without human minds and dreams the spirits have nothing.

i realized that there are many spirits who have no interest in the physical world and that live in the raw fade.

[Almostfaceman]

 

cut off the veil not the fade.

In the sense of remaking the veil a second time stronger than it is since i don't know if the actual veil can be reinforced to that point or it need to be made from scratch.

 

 

That literally makes no sense. If you cut off the Veil that's the same thing as lowering the Veil and that just restores everyone's natural connection to the Fade. 

[kimgoold]

Hold up. I'm pretty sure Solas never mentions whether or not he cared if the Orb exploded with other people around though.

 

Damn you beat me to that, in no way does Solas imply he cared who or how many were killed when Cory unlocked the Orb. 

[midnight tea]

i realized that there are many spirits who have no interest in the physical world and that live in the raw fade yes.

 

Are you actually reading what people are writing to you at all?

 

This is NOT about "no interest". Cole pretty explicitly states that without human minds and dreams there are no spirits, or at the very least they never reach any level of consciousness. By eradicating connection to the Fade you eradicate THEM.

 

And then there's this - we KNOW that humans and pretty much every other living being has a spirit. And that spirit crosses the Fade when people die. 

 

Thedas is NOT Earth. Thedosians are "built" from two relatively separate things - body and spirit. And where do the spirits go if you cut away the world from the Fade?

[Aren]

 

And the "oh, magic has scoured the world so it has to go" argument - how many times we heard that argument against technology? How many times the accusation was leveled against humanity itself? Heck, in both universes.

Technology usually needs a level of understanding to be used properly and is not equiparable with "magic" and all its issues mostly Demonic influences in which most mages do harm against their own will.

 

Anyway i don't see what's the downside of a stronger veil and a weaker connection to the fade  for  everyone it means pretty much a lowering of magic in Thedas.

[Almostfaceman]

Anyway i don't see what's the downside of a stronger veil and a weaker connection to the fade  for  everyone.

 

 

Then you haven't been paying attention to the current posts of the thread. 

[midnight tea]

 

Technology usually needs a level of understanding to be used properly and is not equiparable with "magic" and all its issues mostly Demonic influences in which most mages do harm against their own will.

 

Anyway i don't see what's the downside of a stronger veil and a weaker connection to the fade  for  everyone.

 

 

People don't need to understand how to make a bomb to use it. That is one of the prime accusations against technology - giving people, including those who are dangerous, means to accomplish their goals in a fashion unobtainable if it didn't exist - OR alternatively gives an advantage to those who know how to wield it. Which hey, guess what, is pretty much the same accusation leveled at magic in Thedas.

 

The whole argument is bogus anyway, regardless what we compare it to - it basically searches for an easy scapegoat to blame all/most problems at. Even Vivienne compares magic to fire.... only to ignore that even though fire is dangerous, they still use it, since it's essential not just for civilization, but survival. It's pretty much the same with magic - blame it all you want, but it's part of the world and being that is neither good or bad; it simply IS.

 

And the downsides were already mentioned - with the Fade being intrinsically connected to the world and its inhabitants, you risk messing up the world in ways that probably nobody would be able to fix.

[Aren]

Then you haven't been paying attention to the current posts of the thread. 

You mean not being in agreement  with you about the benefits of not having to deal with mages anymore due to a stronger veil?