it is quite possible that mages will become non-mages, but non-mages will become tranquil.
Mages are more or less the 1% of the population so their desires is hardly something that should concern the majority.
Mages are more or less the 1% of the population so their desires is hardly something that should concern the majority.
So you'd mentally cripple a complete minority because you're afraid of them? Congratulations, you've just adopted the justification for half of human history's genocides. And yes, depriving people of abilities they were born with *is* mentally crippling them. Besides, if you start using yourself as the measuring stick for how others should be, expect them to reciprocate. That way, too, lies genocide.
@Don:
I wouldn't want a world without magic, for reasons I have plainly stated in my previous post.
So you'd mentally cripple a complete minority because you're afraid of them? Congratulations, you've just adopted the justification for half of human history's genocides. And yes, depriving people of abilities they were born with *is* mentally crippling them. Besides, if you start using yourself as the measuring stick for how others should be, expect them to reciprocate. That way, too, lies genocide.
We don't even know what allow mages to do magic in Dragon Age into a world that already has the veil so saying that mundanes will become tranquils because they are not mages is farfetched I personally see the veil as the best mage killer.Mages are more or less the 1% of the population so their desires is hardly something that should concern the majority.
Yes. We. Do. Know. Pretty well.
They are the few who were lucky (or unlucky) to be born with conscious connection to the Fade. Solas states it verbatim: "I walked in the world there the Veil has cut most people's conscious connection to the Fade." If most people's connection is cut, then it follows that there are still some whose connection isn't, be it due to their innate sensitivity to Fade or other factors.
And after the Halamshiral and Inquisitor talks with Solas about "his people" being better off now Solas slips-up and asks "How will the mages be better now?" before he corrects himself. Mages are the closest to his people it seems.
Even in Elvenhan it is implied that there were people who were more talented from others when wielding magic, so in a Veiled world - which dampens the connection, rather than eliminates it - there are simply those who are more talented or sensitive to magic. That doesn't mean that "mundanes" connection is permanent or irreversible. Tranquility isn't (even if people who stay long enough in Tranquil state later lose their trained ability to control emotions) and in fact Seekers use rite of Tranquility to gain what are pretty surely magical gifts (aside from Templar abilities, each Seeker has its own unique skills, from being able to light lyrium in someones's blood on fire to being able to kill with a thought or mind-control mages).
Yes. We. Do. Know. Pretty well.
They are the few who were lucky (or unlucky) to be born with conscious connection to the Fade. Solas states it verbatim: "I walked in the world there the Veil has cut most people's conscious connection to the Fade." If most people's connection is cut, then it follows that there are still some whose connection isn't, be it due to their innate sensitivity to Fade or other factors.
Is mentally crippling and a genocide according to your own arbitrary definition of those words.If a mage become a non-mage that doesn't mean that they are killed thus is no genocide.Mages are not born with magic in fact they can't do magic when they are infants they merely use the fade energies, it is not their magic it is the fade magic.
In Thedas, magic is a natural physical phenomenon such as gravity or magnetism. Some people are born with the ability to interact with, control, and shape it.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Mage
In most of these discussions I wonder if you've even played the games. You just come across that ignorant about the subject.
Is mentally crippling and a genocide according to your own arbitrary definition of those words.If a mage become a non-mage that doesn't mean that they are killed thus is no genocide.Mages are not born with magic in fact they can't do magic when they are infants,they merely use the fade energies it is not their magic it is the fade magic.
Oh, so we're returning to "your own definitions" now?
Sorry hun, but this is nothing more than a clumsy cop-out. Basically you deem everyone else's definition as inferior to your arbitrary ones, which is a telltale sign of self-absorption.
Really, it amuses me that you're so critical of Solas, while you hold mindsets that are 10 times more tyrannical. Not only you want to mess up with the world without even understanding the problem, you dismiss everything that doesn't fit your vision and spin theories that have little to no basis in available facts.
At the very least Solas admits that the ways he wants to accomplish fixing things are terrible and he's going to suffer for it, and he's open to possibility that things can be different.
Really, the more we discuss, the more it becomes obvious that what Solas does is not in any way any sort of 'moral issue' for you - thing is, Solas is simply working towards the change that YOU don't approve, on a basis of thinking that you know what's best for everyone...
Additionally: after the Halamshiral and Inquisitor talks with Solas about "his people" being better off now Solas slips-up and asks "How will the mages be better now?" before he corrects himself. Mages are the closest to his people it seems.
In Thedas, magic is a natural physical phenomenon such as gravity or magnetism. Some people are born with the ability to interact with, control, and shape it.
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Mage
In most of these discussions I wonder if you've even played the games. You just come across that ignorant about the subject.
Oh, so we're returning to "your own definitions" now?
I don't come across as ignorant rather as skeptical.
No, ignorant is the right word. Mages are people born with the ability to use magic and that is basic Dragon Age 101 knowledge. That's why it's in the wiki, no matter how much you try to hand wave the knowledge base.
Thedas is set in a different universe. An alternate reality. Again, Dragon Age basic knowledge.
A person who is not born a mage cannot learn to be a mage. They will not be able to tap into the Fade and use magic, no matter what. That's what it means to be "born" a mage.
No, ignorant is the right word. Mages are people born with the ability to use magic is basic Dragon Age 101 knowledge. That's why it's in the wiki, no matter how much you try to hand wave the knowledge base.
Thedas is set in a different universe. An alternate reality. Again, Dragon Age basic knowledge.
A person who is not born a mage cannot learn to be a mage. They will not be able to tap into the Fade and use magic, no matter what. That's what it means to be "born" a mage.
First what are these factors?Second what is the meaning of sensitivity?You mean you do know because i do not know.
What do you mean "what is the meaning of sensitivity"?
Sensitive to Fade = more connected to the Fade. It's a simple, accessible way to describe people with more of a conscious connection, as we know that even among mages there are those who are more talented/sensitive/more attuned to Fade than others. Really, there's no need to go into details here - unless you don't understand something, because of your limited understanding of English?
Really, it would be beneficial to everyone if you sometimes admitted that there's a language barrier issue going on here. We'd understand - English is not my first language as well. But so far, as discussion goes, I notice where there are instances where you clearly have problem understanding something from the way it was written or described, or take it too literally... only to act like everybody you disagree with is wrong on every level, or act as if there's no need for clarification of your own positions, even though many people have already expressed confusion with either the way you word your posts or address people's responses. There's a lot of unnecessary frustration stemming out of the fact that there's some miscommunication going on here.
In my dictionary born it means existing as a result of birth.Mages are not mages until a certain age that's also basic knoweldge so they actually become mages.
No, that is just when the ability they are born with manifests in them.
He may not see a difference between his people (the ancient elves), and mages...since they all had a connection to the fade and were a magical people.
It's interesting though because it sounds like he would identify with non elven mages more than he would non mage elves. So what makes one an elf isn't pointy ears, but magic, from his point of view.
... Which in itself offers interesting insight into who the People might actually be, ey?
Though I do think that there's more to it than just magical ability - it may be some form of mindset or shared values as well? I mean, in a world that can be shaped by will, imagination and perception, and where spirits are sentient embodiments of concepts or ideas, such things would likely count... possibly on similar level we treat blood relations here?
After all, Solas states "you may have elven ears boy, but not the soul" after it turns out that Hyndel (who is a mage) is still with his zealot friends instead of taking care of parents who need him during difficult times (interestingly he also approves when we send Lord Berand home to take care of his loved ones too).
While we do know that approved Inquisitor, no matter of race or magical ability, is someone who reminds him heavily of pre-Veil people - elf Quizzies even get to be called his kin, whether they're mages or not.
What do you mean "what is the meaning of sensitivity"?
Sensitive to Fade = more connected to the Fade. It's a simple, accessible way to describe people with more of a conscious connection, as we know that even among mages there are those who are more talented/sensitive/more attuned to Fade than others. Really, there's no need to go into details here
No, that is just when the ability they are born with manifests in them.
and it manifest at that age rather than when they are born because?Nobody know.
Saying that mages are more sensitive in the sense of more susceptible to the fade over the mundanes who are also supposed to be mages had not the veil existed imply that all the mages born after the creation of the veil are super-talented for the sole reason that they are able to do magic despite the presence of it.The whole thought however is so incoherent that doesn't make sense for a multitude of reasons.and it manifest at that age rather than when they are born because?Nobody know.
Super talented? Maybe. Super sensitive? Probably. The person born with magical capability is definitely able to bypass the Veil to a certain extent. There's nothing incoherent about any of that. But if you find incoherence, please feel free to list these multitude of reasons.
As to when the magical proclivity manifests... who cares? They have to be born with the ability, else they won't be able to use magic to any extent. It can't be learned. This is why Tevinter society pays so much attention to genealogies.
Arbitrary definitions?
Genocide has a specific meaning and has nothing to do with turn mages into non-mages which doesn't involve any killing.@leldra said that it was genocide when it doesn't match the definition of the word.
Oh jeez, you're missing my point entirely. Again.
What I mean is you suddenly become obsessed with "meaning of words" and definitions, rather than addressing the issue at hand.
People point out that your ideas may effectively eradicate humanity and/or spirits? You ignore the matter and suddenly start focusing on definitions of words, as if distancing yourself from the word 'genocide' and its implications is more important than effects of the action itself.
"Well, nobody will die, so it's technically not genocide!"
... And that's despite us knowing that in Thedas sentencing someone to Tranquility is perilously close to death, as Tranquil's sense of self and self-preservation is crippled to a point of nearly turning a person to a vegetable who can't take care of themselves on their own on nearly any level and rendering them dead without help of non-Tranquils 
.
Like I said much earlier - you're basically advocating to lobotomize the world and base your justifications on a flawed premise that magic is responsible for too many evils, despite being part of nature and - more importantly - an important part of people in Thedas.
Super talented? Maybe. Super sensitive? Probably. The person born with magical capability is definitely able to bypass the Veil to a certain extent. There's nothing incoherent about any of that. But if you find incoherence, please feel free to list these multitude of reasons.
Yes is incoherent because i have to presume that Jowan connection to the fade is stronger than the one of those ancient elves who weren't mages anymore because of the veil at the temple,when the ancient elves are strongly hinted (for what Felassan said) to descend directly from spirits.
As to when the magical proclivity manifests... who cares? They have to be born with the ability, else they won't be able to use magic to any extent. It can't be learned. This is why Tevinter society pays so much attention to genealogies.
Saying that mages are more sensitive in the sense of more susceptible to the fade over the mundanes who are also supposed to be mages had not the veil existed imply that all the mages born after the creation of the veil are super-talented for the sole reason that they are able to do magic despite the presence of it.The whole thought however is so incoherent that doesn't make sense for a multitude of reasons.
....So your only argument against mine is that "it's so incoherent that doesn't make sense for multitude of reasons"... without even bothering to bring those reasons?
Yeah, you have no arguments at all.
It's even funnier that the possibility you described in first sentence makes absolute perfect, logical sense. It IS within realm possibility that current mages would be more powerful in terms of magical prowess compared to current non-magical people. After all, I've pointed out before that there's evidence in Trespasser, and some in base game, that suggests that in pre-Veil times there existed people who were stronger mages than others.
Heck - this is how Evanuris ruled over everyone.
But before you start claiming something stupid like "oh, so by your logic everyone who's a mage now would be as powerful as Evanuris if the Veil was removed?"
No - don't even try thinking in terms or sensitivity or talent as a binary state. There's no "non-talented" and "super-talented" people and nothing in-between - there's a whole gradient of talent or 'sensitivity' between those two states.
After all even in Veiled world there are mages that are more powerful in others. Even the whole DAO mage origin tuts the Warden as one of the most talented mages in their Circle, while Minaeve in DAI tells us that she never underwent Harrowing, because she was too weak in terms of actually interacting with the Fade.
Heck, Calpernia, who is a slave who discovered her magic when she was a teen/young adult and only underwent basic training is a far more powerful mage than a rich, influential Magister. Her sheer power is in fact the thing that guaranteed her position as a Leiutenant of Corypheus, despite her being a slave and not an object of interest of Cory until he stumbled upon her in Erasthenes' household, where he promptly deemed her having "power immeasurable" (and yes, the story is canon: http://blog.bioware....015/06/02/8316/ ).
So obviously, there's a breadth of talent even among mages in modern Thedas. Whether it's inherent or can be obtained with practice remains open for debate - although we do know from both Morrigan and Solas and some other mages that magical prowess *can* be trained, as can be control of one's emotions. Just because someone is born unaware or suppressing their talent doesn't mean that they're utterly devoid of talent or potential.
Solas even tells us that there are ways to check if Sera has dormant magical talents - and we do know from many banters that she's indeed quite sensitive to the Fade, whether because of her 'elfiness' or more than that. So it's possible that "mundanes" are simply born with most of their potential being locked out and for one reason or another (*cough*the Veil*cough*) they never become aware that they have it.
Aside from two users i didn't had any miscommunication issues into the Bsn.
I can think of at least 4 or 5 users in this very thread. Your estimates are woefully disconnected from reality.
People point out that your ideas may effectively eradicate humanity and/or spirits? You ignore the matter and suddenly start focusing on definitions of words, as if distancing yourself from the word 'genocide' and its implications is more important than effects of the action itself.
"Well, nobody will die, so it's technically not genocide!"
... And that's despite us knowing that in Thedas sentencing someone to Tranquility is perilously close to death, as Tranquil's sense of self and self-preservation is crippled to a point of nearly turning a person to a vegetable who can't take care of themselves on their own on nearly any level and rendering them dead without help of non-Tranquils
Like I said much earlier - you're basically advocating to lobotomize the world on a flawed premise that magic is responsible for too many evils, despite being part of nature and - more importantly - an important part of people in Thedas.
The veil remove the connection to magic but it does not influence the behaviour of mortals, as for spirits there are a lot of spirits who were never interested in the physical realm they don't need mortals.
Yes actually mages caused several world threats the premise of eradicate their category isn't flawed at all.
@leldra said that it was genocide when it doesn't match the definition of the word.
Actually, I didn't say that. I said your justification for your scheme to remove magic from the mages was the same as was often used for genocide in human history. But since we're at it, I'm pretty sure this intentional mental crippling of a complete minority would be considered a similar atrocity if magic existed in our world.
Yes is incoherent because i have to presume that Jowan connection to the fade is stronger than the one of those ancient elves who weren't mages anymore because of the veil at the temple,when the ancient elves are strongly hinted (for what Felassan said) to descend directly from spirits.
Bethany and Carver are twins born at the same time and form the same parents who were both related to families tied with magic.One is a mage the other is not nobody know why.
Genealogies are an indication that the Tevinters know that the mages are born with magical abilities and that those abilities tend to run in blood lines. Your point that nobody knows why this person is born with the ability and this other person is not has nothing to do with the original point - which was that people are born with the ability, it isn't learned.
There's nothing in the lore that states humans can't have a connection to the Fade stronger at times than any era elf. You're just letting your head canon confuse you. Degree of magical ability is variable. We don't even have complete information yet about humans and the Fade, so it's far too early for you to be making assumptions about humans vs elves.
... Which in itself offers interesting insight into who the People might actually be, ey?
Though I do think that there's more to it than just magical ability - it may be some form of mindset or shared values as well? I mean, in a world that can be shaped by will, imagination and perception, and where spirits are sentient embodiments of concepts or ideas, such things would likely count... possibly on similar level we treat blood relations here?
After all, Solas states "you may have elven ears boy, but not the soul" after it turns out that Hyndel (who is a mage) is still with his zealot friends instead of taking care of parents who need him during difficult times (interestingly he also approves when we send Lord Berand home to take care of his loved ones too).
While we do know that approved Inquisitor, no matter of race or magical ability, is someone who reminds him heavily of pre-Veil people - elf Quizzies even get to be called his kin, whether they're mages or not.
Yes is incoherent because i have to presume that Jowan connection to the fade is stronger than the one of those ancient elves who weren't mages anymore because of the veil at the temple,when the ancient elves are strongly hinted (for what Felassan said) to descend directly from spirits.
... It's only incoherent if you think incoherently. Because you do. You think in absurd black-and-white categories.
I mean, what does "people descending directly from spirits" has to do with anything? No matter how hard you're trying to spin it, we do indeed see most Sentinels in ToM NOT using magic... you know, perhaps because they can't anymore?
And we have no idea how strong Jowan would be in Veilless world - it's been thousands of years since the Veil has been created and the world has changed and so did the people. It's one of reasons why Solas thinks that the world as modern Thedosians know it, and probably modern Thedosians themselves, will end, even if we don't exactly know what he means by that.
It is entirely within realm possibility then that mages like Jowan would suddenly become more powerful than even an average 'ancient elf' (where most of which were slaves anyhow)... OR, it is within the realm of possibility that Jowan - despite being a mage - may still not have enough mental resistance or talent to be able to withstand a sudden influx of magic. So far both propositions seem viable, especially that we're yet to know all the secrets of the ancient world OR what effects of Dread Wolf's plans would have on the realm.
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