4630 réponses à ce sujet

[Abyss108]

Totally agreed... 

 

So, do you simply not care about the bad things you've already done? 

Or do you remember those things as reasons to become a better person?  

 

Seeking redemption "can" be a noble act... the goal of a person genuinely seeking redemption is not, however, to obtain it.  

 

Yeah, you can remember the bad things and use them to become better and help other people. That's always good. But it doesn't actually "redeem" you.

 

 

I don't know, you don't choose whether other people believe you have accomplished it, but you do make the choice to have a desire for it and to seek it out. Forgiveness on the other hand belongs entirely to the person who was harmed to give or not to give.

 

You can make a choice to help people and be a better person. But I don't think you achieve "redemption" for that. Doing some good doesn't take away the bad. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Yeah, you can remember the bad things and use them to become better and help other people. That's always good. But it doesn't actually "redeem" you.

 

 

 

You can make a choice to help people and be a better person. But I don't think you achieve "redemption" for that. Doing some good doesn't take away the bad. 

 

If Solas were "wise" - I think he would know that undoing what he's done doesn't correct anything.  You can't "go back" - if he succeeded it would be a "new" elven empire.  There will never again be the elven empire of his past. 

 

So... if his reasoning is to correct his mistakes... he's already a failure in his new endeavor.

 

Same with the Veil.. he doesn't know what tearing the Veil down will do, but it's been up for 3000 years.  The effect has already altered the fabric of Thedas and the Fade... you can't "go back".  How he can be such a dimwitted child in his thinking is beyond me.

[midnight tea]

Judging from the responses to this thread, they are quite a few people who think that. Which is weird, because the other character who can redeem himself is Blackwall and the choice of him seeking redemption is one that is decided by the Inquisitor once they learn of the truth about him.

 

IRL, a criminal's redemption is decided by the judge and jury, not by the said criminal. Since Solas is a criminal (he aided and abetted mass murder at the Temple of Sacred Ashes as well as property destruction by Corypheus, and as of this moment, he can also be charged with attempted mass murder), he has to stand trial like any criminal has to and only the judge and jury at that said trial can decide if he can choose to redeem himself or not. Solas cannot make that choice because to do so is to give the justice system a giant middle finger.

 

You conflate two things - there's a difference between a redemption given by the judge and a redemption you give to yourself, that mostly means that you actually find a foothold to move on and make your life better or worthwhile. Blackwall was 'redeemed' by Inquisitor in terms of his crimes in light of law, but it would mean nothing if Blackwall himself didn't decide that his life actually means something and that he may be yet do something good, even if he'll never truly repair all the damage done.

 

In case of Solas I think it mostly means him accepting that his past mistakes may have not really been mistakes at all - that he has indeed saved this world instead of making things worse; that the world he's created actually has a chance to survive whatever bad is waiting to swallow it in the future (Blight, anger of Titans/corrupted Titans, released Evanuris, or else), or perhaps have its connection to the Fade restored through less drastic means.

 

If something like that happened, I'd say that it'd have resonance with things described by Chants - the world will prove its Maker that its worth giving a damn for.

[midnight tea]

@Midnight tea:  if he said "I am going to kill one old woman so the elven empire can be reborn." how would you respond? 

 

Why such bizarre, but unspecific example ? And if I had confidence that one person's death would restore an entire nation or race, I'd say:

 

[Abyss108]

If Solas were "wise" - I think he would know that undoing what he's done doesn't correct anything.  You can't "go back" - if he succeeded it would be a "new" elven empire.  There will never again be the elven empire of his past. 

 

So... if his reasoning is to correct his mistakes... he's already a failure in his new endeavor.

 

Well, I don't think that is really what Solas is trying to do - he hates the empire of the past with the Evanuris, he wants to save the slaves and it has nothing to do with creating an empire of any sort. There are hints that his people (the slaves) still exist, trapped on the other side of the Eluvians. He wants to free them. He can't simply pretend they don't exist anymore. 

[stop_him]

I like Solas as a character. As a romance, less. 

[Addictress]

contemplated murder vs murder

irl law does distinguish.

[Medhia_Nox]

 

 

Well, I don't think that is really what Solas is trying to do - he hates the empire of the past with the Evanuris, he wants to save the slaves and it has nothing to do with creating an empire of any sort. There are hints that his people (the slaves) still exist, trapped on the other side of the Eluvians. He wants to free them. He can't simply pretend they don't exist anymore. 

 

 

Don't you think it might have been prudent for him to show us these slaves?  To tell us this tale at the beginning of the game?  To try to... I dunno, maybe find some way to allow his people to build a life without killing everyone else? 

 

This is his first option?  Sure, we can fabricate all the other options he ran through - but that is all that would be.  Making up stuff to make Solas appear as something he's not. 

 

To do anything but say:  "I could tell you, but - I won't."  

 

So... he wants to destroy the Veil (and modern Thedas) so a few elves he likes can live as immortals on the wreckage of the world.  *shrugs*  Yeah... I still hate him.

[dawnstone]

You can make a choice to help people and be a better person. But I don't think you achieve "redemption" for that. Doing some good doesn't take away the bad. 

No, but continuing on a harmful path does no one any good either.

 

Redemption is maybe a way of saying that there is still something useful in something you would otherwise discard. Say Solas is a block of cheese, and half of him is moldy. If you cut off the bad part, you still have a perfectly good piece of cheese. It might get moldy again later, but while you've got the useful tasty bits, you might as well take advantage of them. There are those who would throw out the whole cheese on the premise of there being any mold at all, and then there are those who would try to see if they can make penicillin.

[Almostfaceman]

Don't you think it might have been prudent for him to show us these slaves?  To tell us this tale at the beginning of the game?  To try to... I dunno, maybe find some way to allow his people to build a life without killing everyone else? 

 

 

I don't think his plans to destroy existing civilization is cool, but this needs to be said since you don't seem to get it.

 

"Try to find some way to allow his people to build a life" - have you been paying any attention to what the rest of the races have been doing to the elves and... do you think there's any real chance for them to "build a life" without more bloodshed? 

 

I mean... really? 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

contemplated murder vs murder

irl law does distinguish.

 

He actually is an accomplice in the mass murder and property destruction at the Temple of the Sacred Ashes. He is also planning to do things that will result in the deaths of thousands more.

[midnight tea]

Don't you think it might have been prudent for him to show us these slaves?  To tell us this tale at the beginning of the game?  To try to... I dunno, maybe find some way to allow his people to build a life without killing everyone else? 

 

What's with the assumption that he either didn't try or the circumstances ever allowed for it? Cole tells us that they're "hiding and hurting and to wake them..." as if there's a trick to actually waking them.

 

Also - why would they show us those slaves (or whoever hides in those mirrors) now? The DA story is obviously designed for us to peel it slowly, layer by layer and gain new perspective.

 

We began that with DAO where we know Fen'Harel as nothing but evil-ish trickster figure from Dalish legends, went through DAI suggesting that there's more to the story than meets the eye, only for Trespasser to reveal that Fen'Harel was actually a rebel who attempted to free the slaves.

 

What would showing slaves accomplish in a story told like that?

[myahele]

We more or less saw Elvhen "slaves" in the Temple of Mythal. They had Vallaslin and lived only to protect the Temple from intruders. 

 

Even with Mythal's murder (to their knowledge) they still served, waking only to defend the temple. 

 

Despite that, they also frown upon the modern elves.

[midnight tea]

He actually is an accomplice in the mass murder and property destruction at the Temple of the Sacred Ashes. He is also planning to do things that will result in the deaths of thousands more.

 

That's nothing more than an assumption. Judging from his comments in Trespasser we can't be even sure if he knew exactly who Corypheus was (he said that he allowed Venatori reach the orb, which means he might have been more familiar with organization than its leader at first. Plus, in Redcliffe, he approves every time Inquisitor asks about the Elder one and what the ritual/mark is supposed to accomplish, as if he himself wanted to learn about that), or what exactly his plans were in the Temple or how they'd end.

 

He obviously didn't expect for explosion to be so strong to create the Breach - if he did, why would he even bother to help Inquisition close it? In fact, if you talk with him at the very beginning of the game he tells us about the orb and that Leliana's men have scoured the ruins and didn't find anything... as if he expected to actually find it there. If so, why he didn't just focus on finding it? Up until the attack on haven he appears to be pretty convinced that the magister who opened it is dead - judging from his shocked "that is impossible!" at the sight of Red Lyrium Dragon, Corypheus surviving and being what he is came to him as a giant surprise.

[Abyss108]

Don't you think it might have been prudent for him to show us these slaves?  To tell us this tale at the beginning of the game?  To try to... I dunno, maybe find some way to allow his people to build a life without killing everyone else? 

 

This is his first option?  Sure, we can fabricate all the other options he ran through - but that is all that would be.  Making up stuff to make Solas appear as something he's not. 

 

To do anything but say:  "I could tell you, but - I won't."  

 

So... he wants to destroy the Veil (and modern Thedas) so a few elves he likes can live as immortals on the wreckage of the world.  *shrugs*  Yeah... I still hate him.

 

His people can't build a life because they are trapped sleeping behind the Veil, or at least everything I've seen suggests this to me. At this point we are just arguing about what we think is going on because the plot hasn't actually been revealed yet. 

 

The way I see it, and this is just my own interpretation of what is going on based off all the evidence we see in the game - Solas is not trying to save a few people or rebuild an empire, he is trying to save his entire race who are currently trapped and waiting for him to save them. By putting up the Veil, he trapped the Evanuris away, but also all his own people. Everyone slept for a few centuries whilst Solas regained his power enough to wake up and tear the Veil back down, freeing everyone and somehow defeating the Evanuris (maybe they would be weak enough to be defeated in battle now by Solas or something). He didn't account for real life coming to exist in the new Fadeless world, but at the same time, every single person who ever fought by his side is waiting to be saved by him so he can't just leave them.

 

This is the plot that makes the most sense to me based off various testimonies in the games/books. A lot of the others ideas that simply paint Solas as insane go against his characterisation for the entire game, against the characterisation of other characters in the games/books that mention these things, and against things that have been stated by the lead writer himself.

 

No, but continuing on a harmful path does no one any good either.

 

Redemption is maybe a way of saying that there is still something useful in something you would otherwise discard. Say Solas is a block of cheese, and half of him is moldy. If you cut off the bad part, you still have a perfectly good piece of cheese. It might get moldy again later, but while you've got the useful tasty bits, you might as well take advantage of them. There are those who would throw out the whole cheese on the premise of there being any mold at all, and then there are those who would try to see if they can make penicillin.

 

That's why I said people should try to be better and help others, and not just kill themselves or something.

 

Solas isn't a moldy block of cheese, we can't just cut a few body parts of him off and then everything is good. He can however still do good, it just doesn't make the bad non-existent.

[midnight tea]

That's why I said people should try to be better and help others, and not just kill themselves or something.

 

Solas isn't a moldy block of cheese, we can't just cut a few body parts of him off and then everything is good. He can however still do good, it just doesn't make the bad non-existent.

 

I don't think anyone thinks that the bad is nonexistent and I have a feeling that Solas will never be a person to forget it. But, like Cullen, he may make the past mean something.

[Beerfish]

I punched him right in the chops......if I would have known he could turn me to stone like a medusa just by looking at me, I may have been a tad more prudent.

[roselavellan]

 

So how can I find his plan reprehensible, if I don't really know what the end goal really is? Even when Inky asked why do modern people have to die for the elves to return Soals almost yells "Spoilers!" at us, so there's obviously more to the story there.

 

 

I agree with this^  I really don't see how anyone can judge him before possessing all the facts. We know he's planning something terrible, but we don't know what, why or how. What is he going to do exactly, destroy the world in what way? Why is he doing all this? For the return of his people, we know that much - but how many still live? How can one assume the ancient elves are a "very small group"?

 

How is it fair to condemn someone before even knowing what he's planning? I'm not saying I think a plan to destroy modern Thedas can ever be totally justified, but to rage-hate him on the basis of these unknown plans seems a bit premature.

[Sah291]

No, but continuing on a harmful path does no one any good either.
 
Redemption is maybe a way of saying that there is still something useful in something you would otherwise discard. Say Solas is a block of cheese, and half of him is moldy. If you cut off the bad part, you still have a perfectly good piece of cheese. It might get moldy again later, but while you've got the useful tasty bits, you might as well take advantage of them. There are those who would throw out the whole cheese on the premise of there being any mold at all, and then there are those who would try to see if they can make penicillin.

Haha, Solas as a block of cheese...

Hmm, I think the idea of redemption is not a legal concept, but a moral one. The law is supposed to reflect morality, but these are actually different concepts.

Justice is about reciprocality, a balancing of the scales, and giving due to that which is owed. It's not just about punishment, but restitutive as well.. Solas could never make right what's he done, or bring back the world he's already lost, but he could decide to protect the current world and all the people in it. A world for a world. Considering he's immortal, he has a long time he could spend paying back for his crimes, by protecting Thedas.

[dawnstone]

That's why I said people should try to be better and help others, and not just kill themselves or something.

 

Solas isn't a moldy block of cheese, we can't just cut a few body parts of him off and then everything is good. He can however still do good, it just doesn't make the bad non-existent.

I don't know, having their arm cut off, increased my Inquisitor's chances of survival considerably.

 

Anyway, that's why I said it might go bad again - there's that element of the unknown, that you have to fill in with faith, and hope for the future. And either you have that, or you don't.

 

If there is a negative part of yourself, you can "cut it out" by acknowledging its presence and attempt not to allow it to influence your actions. If someone you know and love has done something negative, you can choose to let them back in your life (with established boundaries), and continue having a relationship with them.

 

There is no history eraser button (unless you work for the Shaperate), but you can accept that people can change (or not), and you can choose to decide whether you're willing to let things go. That's why there are sayings like "water under the bridge".

 

If redemption were something easy, though, you wouldn't have to work for it, it wouldn't be an active everyday process of making a choice not to repeat past harm, it wouldn't entail people you like, love and respect being wary of you, possibly for the rest of your lives.

 

As far as Solas goes, he's an unfinished story. I enjoy him as a character, and love the tropes and archetypes associated with him deeply, and look forward to seeing how Patrick twists the knife further with him.  

[AlanC9]

He actually is an accomplice in the mass murder and property destruction at the Temple of the Sacred Ashes. He is also planning to do things that will result in the deaths of thousands more.

In the felony murder sense, right? Solas didn't intend that particular explosion or those casualties, but if you're committing the crime you're responsible for all the consequences anyway.

[myahele]

Thing is, Solas did know that the unlocking of the Orb will result in an explosion.

 

He may not have thought it would result in a Breach, but he knew it would explode and would have killed Corypheus. Keep in mind, he did not think the people in the conclave were even "people"

 

In his words "The plan was for Corypheus to unlock it (Orb) and for the resulting explosion to kill him. Then I would claim the Orb"

 

He knew enough (via his agents?) to be in Haven at that moment

[Addictress]

He actually is an accomplice in the mass murder and property destruction at the Temple of the Sacred Ashes. He is also planning to do things that will result in the deaths of thousands more.

If someone goes to another planet and chops down a bunch of weird-looking plants, which by our current moral code would not be considered people or sentient beings, but then later they discover they are sentient... what would that be considered?

[Addictress]

Actually that example is too extreme because even during the conclave and beforehand, Solas is aware that the descendants of the ancient elves - the current elves - are in fact related to the people he considers people.  but they are like tranquil. Soulless, perhaps. It would be a better example of you traveled into the future and everyone devolved into handicapped vegetables. Although we find it completely immoral to kill a mentally disabled person and do attach full personhood to them at this time.... there might be grey areas. Like when you have to think about extending life support and the quality of life. People today deal with these grey areas all the time. Not to mention the In Hushed Whispers alternate future which has a similar circumstance in which the Inquisitor and Dorian wind up in a blighted future full of suffering and tormented people. Can you technically say they doomed those future people - the people who existed in the future - technically allowed their lives to be cut short? Once Dorian activated the amulet, he terminated all the lives in Thedas at that future moment.

[midnight tea]

Thing is, Solas did know that the unlocking of the Orb will result in an explosion.

 

He may not have thought it would result in a Breach, but he knew it would explode and would have killed Corypheus. Keep in mind, he did not think the people in the conclave were even "people"

 

In his words "The plan was for Corypheus to unlock it (Orb) and for the resulting explosion to kill him. Then I would claim the Orb"

 

He knew enough (via his agents?) to be in Haven at that moment

 

He wasn't at Haven - he was in one of the neighboring villages. And considering that Solas was traveling all across Thedas in the year he was awake, including places of importance like Ostagar, he might have indeed been near the Conclave merely to hear about it. It was a very important event after all, full of important people. I bet he'd be interested in visiting the Temple of Sacred Ashes and dream inside of it after the Conclave, simply to absorb information/intel from it.

 

Also - we don't really know if he knew anything about Corypheus plans or ways to unlock the orb. Oh sure, he thought that the explosion would kill him, but you don't really need that large of an explosion to actually kill Corypheus - Hawke killed him without one and his body was decimated by smallish explosion near ToM. His body jumping keeps saving his life, but does nothing for the relative squishiness of his form.

 

Therefore the initial intended explosion might have not even had to be that big - in fact the magnitude of Conclave explosion seems to have resulted from two things: a.) lyrium surrounding the Temple and b.) Inquisitor disrupting the ritual.

 

That part wasn't predicted neither by Solas or Corypheus.