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Bethany and Carver are twins born at the same time and form the same parents who were both related to families tied with magic.One is a mage the other is not nobody know why.
The likeliest explanation is: They are fraternal twins. So they have different genetic materials on their chromosomes, Bethany got the material that made her a mage, Carver did not.
Genealogies are an indication that the Tevinters know that the mages are born with magical abilities and that those abilities tend to run in blood lines. Your point that nobody knows why this person is born with the ability and this other person is not has nothing to do with the original point - which was that people are born with the ability, it isn't learned.
The point is why they are born with it?
Bethany a mage and Carver a non-mage and they are twins.
There's nothing in the lore that states humans can't have a connection to the Fade stronger at times than any era elf. You're just letting your head canon confuse you. Degree of magical ability is variable. We don't even have complete information yet about humans and the Fade, so it's far too early for you to be making assumptions about humans vs elves.
The ancient elves are more talented than humans in magic otherwise they wouldn't have been able to rule in the ancient times with their magic over humans and gameplay wise elves have a bonus to magic
Actually, I didn't say that. I said your justification for your scheme to remove magic from the mages was the same as was often used for genocide in human history. But since we're at it, I'm pretty sure this intentional mental crippling of a complete minority would be considered a similar atrocity if magic existed in our world.
The atrocity is to allow to some mage to threaten the whole world for their ambitions ,how many times does these world threats need to be tolerated for the existence of an insignificant minority?
The likeliest explanation is: They are fraternal twins. So they have different genetic materials on their chromosomes, Bethany got the material that made her a mage, Carver did not.
possible than there is something that involve the genetic.
and it manifest at that age rather than when they are born because?Nobody know.
This quote of Wynne's come to mind; "People don't become mages. They are born mages, the talent just surfaces later."
I've underlined the part of the quote I wish to talk about because it reminded me of some speculation of mine: basically, I speculate that although magic is always present in the mage child, it does not manifest in any visible form until they've gotten older.
The child might experience some of the aspects of magic that older mages do such as dreaming but this would not be apparent to anyone else and the child would likely not remember these experiences.
The aspect of manifesting magic in a visible form would likely also be too difficult or energy-requiring for a baby or even a toddler to do even if it was subconciously exerted. I believe we've seen examples of how magic can exchaust and take a toll on a person.
The atrocity is to allow to some mage to threaten the whole world for their ambitions ,how many times does these world threats need to be tolerated for the existence of an insignificant minority?
As many times as we do not react with an atrocity if attacked by terrorists IRL. We punish those responsible, not their kind, or their people as a whole.
The point is why they are born with it?
Bethany a mage and Carver a non-mage and they are twins.
Before the arrival of modern genetics, did we know why people were born with a certain hair colour, eye colour or gender? Bethany a girl and Carver a boy and they are twins, but they are not identical twins, so variations can happen. The reason behind magic could be the same.
As many times as we do not react with an atrocity if attacked by terrorists IRL. We punish those responsible, not their kind, or their people as a whole.
Terrorists can't destroy the whole world and the system should not allow the mere existence of a small minority of persons able to destroy it.
I don't really need to point out how naive is to think to resolve the issue by trying to stop every time the single mage that is risking to ruin the whole world. how many Solas,Corypheus,The Architect ecc..the world has to suffer for this minority?
The point is why they are born with it?
Bethany a mage and Carver a non-mage and they are twins.
The ancient elves are more talented than humans in magic otherwise they wouldn't have been able to rule in the ancient times with their magic over humans and gameplay wise elves have a bonus to magic
No, that's not the point. You said they weren't born with the ability and they are. That's all we need to know to understand why people can't learn to be mages.
You have an incredibly simplistic view of ancient elves vs humans. One race being more advanced than others doesn't preclude incredibly powerful individuals in all races.
Well I think, the idea of things like a culture, a language, a religion, a people, a land, a shared history, and a nation as all separate things is a more modern concept...and not a world view that seems to be surviving globalisation and multiculturalism with people being more interconnected and spread out, possibly adopting different cultures, nations, or beliefs that might differ from their native traditions or ancestors. And you can see that in DA in how elves have gradually adopted non elven beliefs like Andrastianism or the Qun.
And filial piety is another one of those traditional values.
So I think Solas, coming from an ancient time, just has this more traditional world view.
And Abelas wouldn't see the Dalish as one of his people even though they are both elves. They might look the same. But they aren't from the same tribe, culture, time, beliefs, etc.
I'm not really sure this is about "filial piety" - I did mention that Solas also approves Berand returning to his people (not necessarily close family) and helping them after failing to be there for his love.
What's more, if you take Sera to convince Hyndel to go back to his family (but without mentioning that it's an elfy thing to do) she also approves. And I don't think Sera could be viewed as one holding traditionalists views or honoring ties to family above all - especially that in JOH, in a quest to help the crippled Avvar, she's all "if your family is bad to you, screw them - come to us!" (in fact if we analyse them closely, Solas and Sera are remarkably similar in many ways).
I think it has to more to do with being proactive and helping where you know you can help (additionally to that Solas is all for Cole going out and helping and interacting with people as well and in Trespasser spirit!Cole almost yells "I'm what I should be!"). The zealots are portrayed as turning their back on the world and simply waiting for it to end - so even if Hyndel and Berand would help in limited scope just by being there for their loved ones it's still way more than useless thing as worshiping the Breach and passively waiting for Maker to return and remake the world.
It's even more supported by the fact that actively helping people and being thoughtful and intelligent is what makes Solas acknowledge elf Inquisitor as his kin. He might have taken his time to either notice that, or at least for Inky to break his internal walls to acknowledge it, but they did so anyway. Abelas has no time to evaluate Inky as much as Solas does over the course of Inquisition. And we see Flemaythal acknowledge (at least in dialogue for elf Inky) them as one who do the People proud. The factor that plays a large role in their evaluation seems to be a direct exposure to the modern world, rather than simply belonging to a different tribe and culture, as much as I think it's a factor as well.
Still... what I think - based on all I said above and few other things - the 'cultural' factor in Elvenhan is, rather than traditionalist views, is being active in the community and helping wherever people can as well as cultivating certain traits or behaviors. Even in balcony dialogue with elf Inky Solas is all like "if the Dalish managed to raise a person with a spirit like yours, have I misjudged them?" - as if raising people and cultivating thoughtfulness, curiosity or open-mindedness is of great importance.
And, you know, it would make sense... IF we assume that cultivating those traits directly translates to cultivating positive spirits, who later either influence people, or become people (in ancient Elvenhan at least) later. It's basically a huge positive feedback loop, we see - in far less literal sense - here. Education and cultivating both empathy and critical thinking skills has a direct positive result on our society after all.
The same process can of course go in opposite direction. In fact Solas addresses it in banter with Cassandra:
... So the occurence of spirits and demons - and how people are - is directly correlated with the state of the world and mindsets people have. That Solas recognizes it, and that recognizing it seems to have been a part of the culture he stems from, make it seem that ancient Elvehnan is actually more similar to our modern world than 'Middle Agey" world of modern Thedas.
Revelations in trespasser only seem to support it more and more IMO, since Elvenhan basically turned out to be a great civilization based on (magical) technology, quick and easy transportation and communication, abundance of resources (magic in their case, electricity and fossil fuels in case of ours) and ability to shape the world to an extent that previous generations thought available only to gods. Elvenhan may basically be Bioware's cautionary tale about what may happen to our civilization if things go in wrong direction.
I mean... even Solas's words that "War breeds fear. Fear breeds a desire for simplicity. Good and evil. Right and wrong. Chains of command." is something that could be applied to even what happens now on modern Earth, especially with the outpourings of populist rhetoric and simplistic, black-and-white mindsets in face of what we currently perceive as threats.
You have an incredibly simplistic view of ancient elves vs humans. One race being more advanced than others doesn't preclude incredibly powerful individuals in all races.
The lore say that elves have more talent for magic in DAO(they have + magic bonus) and since ancient elves are people that can sense magic to a greater level of degree this mean they are more sensitive to magic.
Yeah, you're just repeating yourself.
Abelas and company sensed the mark while humans mages weren't able to do that.
And? Any race can use the Mark with equal effectiveness.
Saying that mages are more sensitive in the sense of more susceptible to the fade over the mundanes who are also supposed to be mages had not the veil existed imply that all the mages born after the creation of the veil are super-talented for the sole reason that they are able to do magic despite the presence of it.The whole thought however is so incoherent that doesn't make sense for a multitude of reasons.
As many times as we do not react with an atrocity if attacked by terrorists IRL. We punish those responsible, not their kind, or their people as a whole.
The future of Redcliffe actually is a good reminder in which one single individual was able to destroy the entire world up to a point of no return.
Before the arrival of modern genetics, did we know why people were born with a certain hair colour, eye colour or gender? Bethany a girl and Carver a boy and they are twins, but they are not identical twins, so variations can happen. The reason behind magic could be the same.
...Especially that it is heavily implied that blood (inherited form parents) plays a role in determining who is a mage or not. Heck, the Magisters in Tevinter go to great lengths to breed 'perfect mages' that way.
And it probably should be mentioned that that blood - every blood from any source - has inherent magical properties. It's so powerful in fact that it can be used as a separate source of magic, no matter if the donor is a mage or not.
YET, it is heavily implied that elven blood is more magically potent. We know from codex found in raw fade that Corypheus used great numbers of elven slaves to open a tear in the Veil because of that that, while OBG Kieran claims that elf Inquisitor's blood is 'very old'. There has to be something unique to that blood, just like there's something unique to the blood of great dragons - which Calenhad drank, yet it still affects his descendants. There appears to be some "magical inheritance" system we don't know much about that works alongside simple genetics that helps to pass the externally-acquired powers, OR determines that there are no half-elves in Thedas.
With all that said that doesn't mean that blood and matters of inheritance are the only factor, or that the 'maginess' is a recessive trait, or is lost entirely if the blood is 'thinned out' - I've already given the example of Seekers who gain specific magical talents after successful Tranquility rite.
Plus, most of the Circle mages on the South are 'spontaneous mages' whose talent manifests at one time or another among common population, as the Chantry goes to great lengths to try and cull their numbers: they isolate every mage they know of from society and frown at children born in the Circle. So the fact that mages are still born in the South signifies that the magical potential is not yet lost in "mundanes" and may simply require specific triggers to awaken, aside from matters of genetic inheritance that - as we know form IRL world - is oftentimes a simple matter of chance.
^ To be honest, I've always thought the remarks about using scores of elven slaves in these rituals is because they were seen as disposable. I've also assumed that, while there are slaves of multiple races in Tevinter, that the elven ones are far more numerous, meaning that any given blood sacrifice is more likely to involve elves than, say, humans or qunari.
Which mean that elves are more "magical" than humans.
Abelas and company sensed the mark while humans mages weren't able to do that.
Abelas is the only one that tells us anything about the Mark and the thing he says is that Inky "wields the magic that is familiar" to him.
That is an entirely different thing from what you're trying to claim - the fact that Abelas (who is a high priest in Mythal's service, btw) senses that magic is familiar to him only tells us that the Anchor is using specific magic that ancient elves know about, as opposed to modern Thedosian, to whom many arcane talents or types of magic are lost due to - guess what - the Veil, thousands of hears of Elvenhan *not* existing AND generally negative approach to magic which prevents from many of types of magic being studied or cultivated.
I mean - if suddenly an ancient Greek person has materialized in modern world and he made a comment that modern moussaka has familiar taste to what he knows from his favorite tavern in Athens that doesn't mean that he's more "sensitive" sense of taste. You are completely confusing contexts here.
With that said, Abelas is NOT the only person able to sense the mark. The Avvar Augur in JOH immediately makes a comment about the Anchor when Inky enters his hut, even if he doesn't say much about its nature, while mages like Vivienne or Dorian study it in trying to help Inky control it, but they can't do much because - guess what - they're unfamiliar with the magic.
^ To be honest, I've always thought the remarks about using scores of elven slaves in these rituals is because they were seen as disposable. I've also assumed that, while there are slaves of multiple races in Tevinter, that the elven ones are far more numerous, meaning that any given blood sacrifice is more likely to involve elves than, say, humans or qunari.
http://dragonage.wik..._Claws_of_Dumat
"He spoke to me later in the day, and asked that I call him Corypheus, as it was the name he would take for himself after a ritual. Master - now Corypheus - told me that my people, the elves of old, were tied to the Fade, and that in order to carry out the will of Dumat, he would need to call upon the magic that lives in our blood."
Which mean that elves are more "magical" than humans.
Yet not all elves are mages. In fact majority of them isn't. The fact that they're inherently more connected to the Fade than average human doesn't mean that the talent is more widespread among them; in fact one of the Dalish (was it Merril?) laments that the magic within elves is dying out.
Whether it's truly dying, or the talent becomes dormant (as it's implied in case of Sera) and whether the talent is dormant withing all people remains a matter for debate.
Plus, most of the Circle mages on the South are 'spontaneous mages' whose talent manifests at one time or another among common population, as the Chantry goes to great lengths to try and cull their numbers: they isolate every mage they know of from society and frown at children born in the Circle. So the fact that mages are still born in the South signifies that the magical potential is not yet lost in "mundanes" and may simply require specific triggers to awaken, aside from matters of genetic inheritance that - as we know form IRL world - is oftentimes a simple matter of chance.
Which mean that elves are more "magical" than humans.
Abelas is the only one that tells us anything about the Mark and the thing he says is that Inky "wields the magic that is familiar" to him.
That is an entirely different thing from what you're trying to claim - the fact that Abelas (who is a high priest in Mythal's service, btw) senses that magic is familiar to him only tells us that the Anchor is using specific magic that ancient elves know about, as opposed to modern Thedosian, to whom many arcane talents or types of magic are lost due to - guess what - the Veil, thousands of hears of Elvenhan *not* existing AND generally negative approach to magic which prevents from many of types of magic being studied or cultivated.
I mean - if suddenly an ancient Greek person has materialized in modern world and he made a comment that modern moussaka has familiar taste to what he knows from his favorite tavern in Athens that doesn't mean that he's more "sensitive" sense of taste. You are completely confusing contexts here.
Nothing in any of the games, or in the WoT lore books, hints that this is the case. As far as genetic chance goes, one of the better examples of this is Felix. Alexius married his sweetheart out of love instead of going along with an arranged marriage and a suitable breeding partner. Felix, while in fact a mage, has little magical talent. His talent is so low that he didn't even attend a Circle for his higher education, but went to the University of Orlais.
Of course it does - I've given a good evidence for it in the very paragraph you've quoted. Most of the mages in the South are NOT effect of intentional breeding, yet you can find mages of exceptional talents in the South; even those who can't really track any significant mages in previous generations.
As for Felix - you have to take into consideration that Felix's lack of talent may be not a result of Felix going against his family's fishes, but in fact his family's generations of interbreeding and he was simply unfortunate that way. I've also given the example of Calpernia, who is a far stronger mage than a high-born magister she deals with at the end of the story written by Brianne Battye.
....Then there's the whole "dragon blood" thing going on in Calenhad's bloodline - an acquired power, rather than inherent one. So genetics do indeed play a role, but obviously there are other factors to be taken into consideration as well.
Dorian said that he isn't able to hear magic (like Cole) he can only cast spells like most modern mages.
Abelas in the temple said that the anchor was a familiar type of magic which mean that he was able to percieve it's magical nature he recognized something elven this imply that he has a sort of ear for magic.
But Cole is a spirit - not an ancient elf. And he can hear things not even Solas can - and he's an ancient elf all around, if not one of the most powerful elves who ever existed, at least before he created the Veil, or trap for Evanuris, that depleted his powers.
Plus, like I said, you quote Abelas - who himself was a high priest for Mythal, wielding some of her power and leading others (who - by his own words - lost something important to them after Mythal's death), so naturally he'd be more powerful than your average ancient elf, duh. Making him a benchmark for ancient elvhen power or sensitivity is simply fallacious.
We DON'T have a good sample of "average" ancient elf - in fact all of the other Sentinels we see are cannon fodder, most of them non-mages, who attack Inky like they attack everyone else and get themselves promptly killed. We also lack any sample of what would happen to ancient elves and modern Thedosians in Veiled or Veilles world - what we do know is that both in Veiled and Veilles world there exist more and less powerful individuals.
@midnight tea,
I still think that's an example of traditional values, caring for the community above one's own desires, as opposed to a more modern sense of individualism.
Of course Solas values wisdom and compassion in general. But he doesn't seem to understand things like why Varric is OK with being a surfacer, for example, and redefining what it means to be a dwarf.
Anyway I'm not really trying to say that Solas is more traditional or liberal...he was probably a radical of his day, but in modern Thedas he's now a throw back to an earlier time. He seems to be struggling with that.
I wouldn't say that 'sense of individualism' is a uniquely modern thing, or it goes to any extreme as 'individuals over community'. In fact nowadays, especially with the emergence of Internet, we appear to be more aware of how we, as individuals, can impact community. The difference between us and the 'old world' is that we do so on more of a global scale, rather than just within our smaller communities.
Solas is also not one who'd I'd describe as holding a traditionalist, collectivist mindset - even his quarrel with IB shows just how much he values individuality.
As for Solas not understanding Varric I don't think this is about being 'okay to be a surfacer' - what he doesn't understand, either in surfacers or Orzammar, is why neither of them dig up their own history, which could probably help them grow, or understand better either themselves or the world around them. He doesn't just ask Varric about being happy here (in fact he commends him for making his own path and being appreciative of what he has), but cannot understand why they're not interested with their missing connection to the Stone OR why Orzammar isn't doing anything with lyrium, other than trading it and adhering to tradition.
He makes it seem as of the truth about the Titans is within the reach (just like he says that anyone who can dream has capability to interact with spirits, but few ever try) and what he's baffled by is people's willful ignorance or lack of curiosity. THAT, I think, is one of his major gripes with the world - lack of inquiry, skepticism or cultivating critical thinking skill. Ironically, it's a very "modern" mindset, at least on meta level.
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