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[Lunatica]

snip

he chant of light proved to be extremely accurate tough since it is an allegory many things need to be interpreted.

Broodmothers were discovered by the Wardens  before the time of the 4th blight.

[Lady Artifice]

Lyin' Solas holds the Orb up high then puts it down and starts lying. 

 

Lyin' Solas is a mess. Sad !

 

This is actually a remarkably appropriate reference, considering the quote source and your own consistent inaccuracy in this thread. Early pages, you actually claimed that Solas presented pre-veil elven society as utopian, when his actual assessment was so thoroughly oppositional to that idea it's surprising that you still expect anyone to believe you were even paying attention.

 

For the record, a lot of Solas fans are keeping in mind that he's a fictional character, and can be a fan of him as a character without approving of his decisions.

[BansheeOwnage]

I agree about your points regarding Solas and the Blight, but I think the game has also hinted that there's a difference between the surface dwarves and the rock dwellers. Maybe it is a hint that something is interfering with their minds. We already have hints that dwarves true nature's are being messed with, according to Descent. This proximity to the stone seems to keep the... let's say "stone" dwarves...  mired in a loop that even hinders basic impulses for self-preservation. They have HUGE leverage over the surface kingdoms and yet don't use it to even try and slow down the destruction of their vast kingdom. 

 

I say "stone" dwarves because it's not just Orzammar... there were many thaigs once and they all had one thing in common... refusal to go to the surface for help. 

Again and again the game beats it into our heads that dwarves with "stone" sense don't like the surface, they don't like surface dwarves. At first it comes across as simple prejudice and tradition but now I'm beginning to see it as something more. 

 

As I said, these are just hints and I don't pretend to know for sure that the hints will go anywhere or that they mean what I think they may mean. But it was odd enough to be brought up in the game through Solas. I think they might be bringing it up for a reason. 

 

Or not. Dark energy was mentioned ad nauseam in ME2 and it went nowhere because the dev's changed the story for ME3 and the motivations of the Reapers.  

Yeah, you might be on to something here. The dwarves may be isolationists because they are compelled by their stone-sense (connection to titans) to stay near/in the titans. It makes sense. It's explained that Varric doesn't have the stone-sense, and neither do dwarves who've been on the surface for long lengths of time, though it's unclear if they would regain it by spending enough time below (Varric doesn't get it back in the Descent).

 

This supports my opinion that restoring the dwarves to their former "selves" would be doing them a disservice, and now I think they should instead all leave to the surface

[Mistic]

Or not. Dark energy was mentioned ad nauseam in ME2 and it went nowhere because the dev's changed the story for ME3 and the motivations of the Reapers.  

 

Don't remind me

 

At least DA is taking the clever route by throwing vague hints, but never stating anything for sure unless they want it. That way, if Bioware decides to unveil the mystery they can say "See? We foreshadowed it!"; but if they change their minds, they can rightfully claim that they aren't contradicting themselves and that those crazy theories were just fanon.

[German Soldier]

 

This supports my opinion that restoring the dwarves to their former "selves" would be doing them a disservice, and now I think they should instead all leave to the surface

Restore the dwarves to their former self it means to make them better equipped to eliminate the darkspawns with knowledge and the support of the titans.Restore them is the better thing to do provided that it don't involve the destruction of the world.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Restore the dwarves to their former self it means to make them better equipped to eliminate the darkspawns with knowledge and the support of the titans.

Restore them is the better thing to do provided that it don't involve the destruction of the world.

 

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know that they'd be better equipped to fight darkspawn like that. And those are the (potential) pros. There seem to be pretty important cons, in my opinion.

[Medhia_Nox]

Yeah, you might be on to something here. The dwarves may be isolationists because they are compelled by their stone-sense (connection to titans) to stay near/in the titans. It makes sense. It's explained that Varric doesn't have the stone-sense, and neither do dwarves who've been on the surface for long lengths of time, though it's unclear if they would regain it by spending enough time below (Varric doesn't get it back in the Descent).

 

This supports my opinion that restoring the dwarves to their former "selves" would be doing them a disservice, and now I think they should instead all leave to the surface

 

Unless Shaper Valta is any indication of what "restoration" suggests.  

 

It's interesting - and in no way are you a culprit of this - but so many people want beings that think differently from humans and yet, when something like a eusocial species is suggested - it's suddenly unprefered because it doesn't promote modern human values - which is, of course, completely myopic and self-righteous.  

 

Eusocial species are the most successful species on our planet (ants, termites, bees, etc) - when "life" is the goal, they exceed humanity by leaps and bounds.  

 

So... to save the dwarves... reconnecting with the Titans might indeed be a raging success (at least against the darkspawn)

[midnight tea]

Unless Shaper Valta is any indication of what "restoration" suggests.  

 

It's interesting - and in no way are you a culprit of this - but so many people want beings that think differently from humans and yet, when something like a eusocial species is suggested - it's suddenly unprefered because it doesn't promote modern human values - which is, of course, completely myopic and self-righteous.  

 

Eusocial species are the most successful species on our planet (ants, termites, bees, etc) - when "life" is the goal, they exceed humanity by leaps and bounds.  

 

So... to save the dwarves... reconnecting with the Titans might indeed be a raging success (at least against the darkspawn)

 

Actually, some known biologists suggest that humans are also eusocial species. We do depend on our society to survive after all and we are indeed highly organized. The differences likely stem from the fact that what works for insects doesn't necessarily works for higher animals/animals with higher intelligence, lifespan and different reproductive strategies. Again, context. It matters.

[midnight tea]

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know that they'd be better equipped to fight darkspawn like that. And those are the (potential) pros. There seem to be pretty important cons, in my opinion.

 

Not really sure about cons. Is it based on this codex excerpt?

"In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing."

 

TBH we don't really know if this really refers to the dwarves, or if this really suggests that previously the dwarves were bound to Titans and members of some sort of hive-mind. It may as well be that the elves were talking about something different - corrupted Titans maybe? Maybe they were talking about darkspawn protoplasts, ey? Who we know for sure 'scurry witless and soulles'. They must have come from somewhere after all, and we do know that Red Lyrium (which is corrupted by the Blight) were found in sections of Deep roads that are *extremely* old and pre-dating Blights.

 

 

So yeah... I have mixed feelings about the hive-mind theory. The reasons for it are such:

 

1.) there are hints in Trespasser that suggest that the dwarves or their ancestors lived on a surface, only were chased underground by Elgar'nan and his ilk. That doesn't necessarily suggests anything against the theory, but it does make it seem that the whole 'living underground' is not really a natural state for the dwarves. There's also a question of what happened to Titans and if their subjugation by Evanuris might have had an impact on dwarves as a whole, meaning that even during times of ancient elves they already might have not really been what they were originally.

 

2.) the only reborn/re-connected dwarf we have seen so far seen is Valta. And she definitely didn't seem to lost anything of herself or whatever; in fact she seemed empowered and enlightened, gaining strange abilities like one to materialize pages of her journal in Skyhold and apparently not needing any sleep.

 

b.) collective consciousness is a thing suggested to exist on many levels in Thedas. So technically everybody could be part of a "hive-mind" of some sort, even if they're not aware of it. That doesn't necessarily means we have to think about it as we think about ants... or Qunari

[BansheeOwnage]

I'm not happy with how my post turned out, since I have trouble wording these things, but here it goes:

Unless Shaper Valta is any indication of what "restoration" suggests.  

 

It's interesting - and in no way are you a culprit of this - but so many people want beings that think differently from humans and yet, when something like a eusocial species is suggested - it's suddenly unprefered because it doesn't promote modern human values - which is, of course, completely myopic and self-righteous.  

 

Eusocial species are the most successful species on our planet (ants, termites, bees, etc) - when "life" is the goal, they exceed humanity by leaps and bounds.  

 

So... to save the dwarves... reconnecting with the Titans might indeed be a raging success (at least against the darkspawn)

The thing is though, in Dragon Age, the dwarves might as well be humans. They're human aliens. It doesn't matter if they were all connected to the titans through a hivemind, because now they aren't, and most seem to like that fine. I believe in in individual autonomy, and I can't imagine most dwarves (like Varric, to name one) would like being reconnected at all. If that's self-righteous to you, so be it.

 

Basically I was arguing against German Soldier that if given the choice, we shouldn't make it for the dwarves. Not even the dwarves should make it, really, because they'll have different opinions, but will all be affected.

 

Not really sure about cons. Is it based on this codex excerpt?

"In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing."

 

TBH we don't really know if this really refers to the dwarves, or if this really suggests that previously the dwarves were bound to Titans and members of some sort of hive-mind. It may as well be that the elves were talking about something different - corrupted Titans maybe? Maybe they were talking about darkspawn protoplasts, ey? Who we know for sure 'scurry witless and soulles'. They must have come from somewhere after all, and we do know that Red Lyrium (which is corrupted by the Blight) were found in sections of Deep roads that are *extremely* old and pre-dating Blights.

Partly the codex, and partly because of Valta, partly because of the Sha-Brytol. I doubt the darkspawn could be considered "workers" of the Pillars of the Earth, especially since we've seen them in the form of the Sha-Brytol, who kill darkspawn. But whether the ancient dwarves were like Valta or the Sha-Brytol, I don't consider that a step-up.

 

 

2.) the only reborn/re-connected dwarf we have seen so far seen is Valta. And she definitely didn't seem to lost anything of herself or whatever; in fact she seemed empowered and enlightened, gaining strange abilities like one to materialize pages of her journal in Skyhold and apparently not needing any sleep.

Well it seems we might be thinking different things partly because we took away completely different things from Valta. I completely disagree that she didn't lose anything of herself. She seemed like a thrall to me, completely changed, and the entire encounter was so creepy I was left wondering why I had no option to either kill or subdue her and take her to Skyhold or Orzammar.

 

But bleh, I really don't like that DLC, so some of those feelings are spilling over. It completely took away my Inquisitor's autonomy and felt more like I wasn't playing an RPG. Railroading everywhere. Maybe it was because another studio made it.

[Medhia_Nox]

 

The thing is though, in Dragon Age, the dwarves might as well be humans. They're human aliens. It doesn't matter if they were all connected to the titans through a hivemind, because now they aren't, and most seem to like that fine. I believe in in individual autonomy, and I can't imagine most dwarves (like Varric, to name one) would like being reconnected at all. If that's self-righteous to you, so be it.

 

Your post did not come off as anything but conversation - hence I said that I was not talking about you - that was not veiled passive aggressive conversation.  If I were talking about you, I would respect you enough to tell you directly.  As it were, I had nobody specifically in mind.  You had simply sparked my response because you made me think of that reaction which I have seen before (mostly in sci-fi forums to be honest).

 

I agree - elves and dwarves are just "elves and dwarves through the eyes of a human".  There's nothing really deep or unique about them... though they maintain their interest through an entertaining chemistry of traits. 

 

However - the Qun is a better example.  We don't know if the Qunari would be happier being Tal Vashoth.  We are told, and have seen, the Tal Vashoth being quite violent and uncontrollable.  Perhaps - and this is only a perhaps - the Qunari benefit from the Qun mindset.  Most people simply go to "brainwashing" to explain why a Qunari might appreciate the mindset... that, I find myopic and self-righteous. 

 

My opinion?  The Qunari would be more unique actually benefiting under the Qun and suffering without it.  That would not change the fact they shouldn't be putting other races under the Qun - but I would find their species less human because their actually biology (brain chemistry) would not work in a human way.  They would transcend "humans with horns" in a way elves and dwarves do not.  They are simply "lithe humans and stout humans" - and they are more boring for it.

 

Concerning the dwarves... they might find peace in the stone.  Perhaps the elves were wrong (gasp) and they were not mindless and soulless... the elves of that time period were certifiable douchebags on a power trip... I hardly trust their testimonies.  Perhaps it isn't exactly a hive-mind in the way ants and termites have it. 

 

My only statement is that anyone who states abandoning individuality is evil for something that isn't human... is speaking in a myopic sense.  We even have human societies that do not value individualism as much as the West and they are successful (Japan would be one). 

 

The best example is Warhammer 40K.  The aliens do not think like humans at all... a human's mind would break trying to understand them.  I applaud Games Workshop for this.  While humans ARE center stage in the Warhammer 40K universe... the human mentality is not the only one present and there isn't a single race in Warhammer 40K that is "humans with..." 

 

NOTE:  You can never escape representing something from a human perspective so even Warhammer has its limits.

[midnight tea]

I'm not happy with how my post turned out, since I have trouble wording these things, but here it goes:

The thing is though, in Dragon Age, the dwarves might as well be humans. They're human aliens. It doesn't matter if they were all connected to the titans through a hivemind, because now they aren't, and most seem to like that fine. I believe in in individual autonomy, and I can't imagine most dwarves (like Varric, to name one) would like being reconnected at all. If that's self-righteous to you, so be it.

 

Basically I was arguing against German Soldier that if given the choice, we shouldn't make it for the dwarves. Not even the dwarves should make it, really, because they'll have different opinions, but will all be affected.

 

I'm not saying that we should make that decision for the dwarves - what I'm saying is that it may not be what we expect it to be, at least based on a few scraps we have. We think we have fairly little information on ancient elves... well, we do have even less on ancient dwarves

 

Partly the codex, and partly because of Valta, partly because of the Sha-Brytol. I doubt the darkspawn could be considered "workers" of the Pillars of the Earth, especially since we've seen them in the form of the Sha-Brytol, who kill darkspawn. But whether the ancient dwarves were like Valta or the Sha-Brytol, I don't consider that a step-up.

 

But the Sha-Brytol were an anomaly - they were not what ancient dwarves were; merely some sort of shadows who tried to usurp their place near the Titan and the status of a "pure one" which they were not. Valta tells us explicitly at the end that they corrupted themselves to something bizarre and that the Titan doesn't care about them or needs them for anything, further evidenced by fact that it calmed down only after it re-connected with one of its children - which was Valta.

 

Also - the darkspawn could be considered workers, if we assume that at that time they were connected to corrupted Titans... which, as Red Lyrium suggests, are a thing that likely exists. Maybe this is also the reason why they keep to the Deep Roads. Maybe they'd try and reach the Blighted Titans after Archdemons are gone?

 

Well it seems we might be thinking different things partly because we took away completely different things from Valta. I completely disagree that she didn't lose anything of herself. She seemed like a thrall to me, completely changed, and the entire encounter was so creepy I was left wondering why I had no option to either kill or subdue her and take her to Skyhold or Orzammar.

 

I didn't get such feeling at all. She was changed, but I don't feel the 'thrall' thing. In fact at the very end of Descent she seems to basically become dwarven equivalent of Solas (at times she sounds almost like him, especially when she mentions all the wonders to be discovered), venturing to explore the Titan and secrets hiding under earth as Solas does the Fade. I may be wary of what she may become in the future, depending on what she discovers and how that alone will affect her, but I do admire her determination, adventurous spirit and adherence to truth, which we know were her traits before and only seem to get strengthened after what happened to her. In her place, if I'd probably stay behind and try and suss out ancient secrets from forgotten parts of realm too, *especially* if it means unearthing the truth, or ways to deal with any future crises.

[Hellion Rex]

At risk of sounding a tad romantic, she sounded..."awake" to me. Like she had been asleep or somehow befuddled for all her life, and she could finally see with clarity.

@Banshee and to be honest, even if you were given the option to subdue or attempt to kill her, I don't think you would have a chance of pulling it off. With her powers now, as well as us being located in the Heart of a Titan at the time, I'd argue that we'd be utterly at her mercy. She would have the utmost advantage.

And from a narrative perspective, it makes sense why they wouldn't get rid of a character that could be of great use down the road.

[Aren]

 

 

I agree - elves and dwarves are just "elves and dwarves through the eyes of a human".  There's nothing really deep or unique about them... though they maintain their interest through an entertaining chemistry of traits. 

 

 

Solas is just an human with pointy ears?

He is an alien when he talk with Cole.

[Ellawynn]

 

 

My opinion?  The Qunari would be more unique actually benefiting under the Qun and suffering without it.  That would not change the fact they shouldn't be putting other races under the Qun - but I would find their species less human because their actually biology (brain chemistry) would not work in a human way.  They would transcend "humans with horns" in a way elves and dwarves do not.  They are simply "lithe humans and stout humans" - and they are more boring for it.

 

Not saying that this is a bad idea, but I think certain swathes of the fandom would probably throw a shitfest if it turned out to be the case. Just as how certain swathes of the fandom threw a shitfest when it turned Red Crossing was started by the Dalish because "BioWare's blaming the elves for their own oppression!" And just how they continue to have weekly shitfests about the Mage-Templar war because "Obviously the Templars are in the wrong and have no validity this shouldn't be a debate BioWare should just out and say that the mages are the good guys."

 

Granted, said swathes of the fandom seem almost entirely concerned with the elves and the Dalish and maybe the mages, so they might not care what happens to the Qunari, but still.

[Hellion Rex]

In regards to the above, I'd say,"Who cares?"

Let them rage.

[DuskWanderer]

One conversation of Solas's that I really like is the one he has with Dorian about how empires had risen and fallen for a long time, and that Arlathan was no less innocent in it's time than Tevinter was. 

 

It's so true. A shame he never learned it. 

[midnight tea]

One conversation of Solas's that I really like is the one he has with Dorian about how empires had risen and fallen for a long time, and that Arlathan was no less innocent in it's time than Tevinter was. 

 

It's so true. A shame he never learned it. 

 

If he was the one who said to Dorian that Arlathan was no less innocent, then it follows that he did indeed learn it and points to Solas is NOT aiming specifically to restore Elvenhan back.

[DuskWanderer]

If he was the one who said to Dorian that Arlathan was no less innocent, then it follows that he did indeed learn it and points to Solas is NOT aiming specifically to restore Elvenhan back.

Yes, he is. He wants to restore the world to the way it was, He outright says this in the end of Trespasser. 

[Xerrai]

Yes, he is. He wants to restore the world to the way it was, He outright says this in the end of Trespasser. 

He says he wants to restore the "world of the elves". That does not instantly mean Elvhenan, the empire ruled by a select number of apparently tyrannical evanuris.

 

I suppose you can make the argument that he wants to bring back the evanuris to make a new elvhenan, but that is far from being confirmed.

[DuskWanderer]

He says he wants to restore the "world of the elves". That does not instantly mean Elvhenan, the empire ruled by a select number of apparently tyrannical evanuris.

 

I suppose you can make the argument that he wants to bring back the evanuris to make a new elvhenan, but that is far from being confirmed.

 

No, he doesn't 'want' to bring the Evanuris back, but he fully intends for them to do so. As far as I'm concerned, he's no different than Corypheus.

[Xerrai]

No, he doesn't 'want' to bring the Evanuris back, but he fully intends for them to do so. As far as I'm concerned, he's no different than Corypheus.

It is certainly a side-effect of bringing down the veil. It was their prison after all. That being said, releasing the evanuris was never his main goal.

 

But no one sure what "I had plans" really means. He could intend on killing them, sealing them away again, or letting them roam free. Point is we don't know.

[midnight tea]

Yes, he is. He wants to restore the world to the way it was, He outright says this in the end of Trespasser. 

 

World how it was =/= Elvenhan

 

 

No, he doesn't 'want' to bring the Evanuris back, but he fully intends for them to do so. As far as I'm concerned, he's no different than Corypheus.

 

Speculation in face of lack of supporting facts, nothing more. There's no evidence of "he fully intends to bring back the Evanuris", in fact he downright tells us that he banished them forever and generally considers them a source of most of past woes, so why he'd "fully intend" to bring them back?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No, he doesn't 'want' to bring the Evanuris back, but he fully intends for them to do so. As far as I'm concerned, he's no different than Corypheus.

That's an insult to Corypheus. At least Corypheus offered his salvation to every race equally, rather than just the ancient elves.

[lynroy]

^I don't consider submission to corypheus salvation. But that's me.