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Why do some of you girls maybe guys like ( love ) Solas so much ?


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#3276
midnight tea

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https://www.vg247.co...-make-a-sequel/

which is also something inherent to the video you posted
 
DAO was not developed with the intention to have sequels and the link you posted  in regard of the title of the game means nothing because i may as well interpret the title Origins as a reference to the several protagonist Origins which is something exclusive of DAO in the entire franchise.
is Dragon Age Origins after all(plural) not Dragon age Origin(singular)

 

So you're basically giving a link that recaps what Gaider said in the very interview I linked? I mean, even the article itself makes it VERY CLEAR that at best Gaider and the tam were uncertain whether they're going to make a sequel (hence they've added epilogue slides), NOT that they didn't have any plans for sequel at all. Something I've already pointed out myself.

 

I mean... this only supports what I've been saying. So... thanks, I guess?

 

Also - there's no way you can spin it into "I could interpret it differently". No, you can't in that regard - the very director of DAO tells us in interview that it means all those three things. Bend over backwards however you can; the truth is there black on white.

 

Also - because it means all those thee things as once, it means that it's in plural, genius. Fits like a glove.

 

 

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

 
The interview and post i linked are meant to show the evident contradiction in terms of critical  lore between the statements of  David Gaider  and Mary Kirby in regard of the elves and their relative lore.
The conversation aroused from the interview (which predate Mary Kirby post ) imply that the lead writer originally developed the elven lore of DAO in regard of the elven immortality into being something indipendent from the Veil/Solas meta-plot and supported the in-game original idea of humans who quickened the elves.
This further suggest that they didn't planned anything in regard of subsequent DA games or the whole Solas/veil plot  and while i'm not denying that there were tales of the Dread wolf in DAO i'm arguing that the writers did not planned  that he was the cause of the quickening
when DAO was  developed.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa.... so you have so little evidence to support your claim that you have to rely on "evident contradiction between statements of Gaider and Mary"?

 

What's more, the "evident contradiction" if of mildest and vaguest variety. Basically you're talking about something as small as "Dalish elves live somewhat longer" and "Dalish elves in general have similar lifespan to city elves"...

 

And THAT somehow makes it evident that there's a glaring contradiction and let's you extrapolate that it's "independent from the Veil", when there's absolutely nothing in those quotes there to support such notion?

 

Like... come on - you realize that contradictions and retcons happen, even in most planned ahead series? I myself experienced that while writing my own stories, and believe me - I plan ahead with astounding detail. In stories that are large and complex some things are bound to change, which is even more true of AAA RPGs of such scope and difficulty in development. It's inevitable. This is why Leliana is alive in every worldstate. This is why Hawke isn't Inquisitor. Even big changes to narrative do little to deny existence of overarching plot, or planned direction of the series. Hawke may not be Inquisitor, but Inquisition as event and organization still happened and the world seems to head towards some sort of inevitable change.

 

Therefore using it as a "see? see? This detail contradicts this detail, and since it means that they haven't planned absolutely everything from the beginning, it means that the series wasn't planned ahead" is nothing more than kindergarten logic.

 

What's more, there's also a distinct possibility that one writer remembers things differently than other.

 

I mean, don't you know of Solas's comment you can find in DAI itself about elves having beards? Mary Kirby said she's made a mistake - and in fervor of game development that mistake survived long enough for the line to be recorded and put in the game; in fact some people even heard it spoken during their playthrough. Kirby later went to Gaider and asked about that detail and he denied that elves have beards, so the line's been removed via patch, as far as I remember.

 

And that's in DAI itself, made during the development of that very game - does this mean that they didn't plan DAI and events after that WHILE writing DAI? Of course it's not, and suggesting things like that is plain silly.

 

I mean really, all those links only further make me convinced that you indeed have nothing. You've made claims that there are "tons of interviews" that support your claim and eventually you only manage to come with link to interview supporting my point and some vague contradictions between DA writers that do nothing to support yours.

 

I think it can be safely said that my case is closed.



#3277
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I didn't know that Lol
It means that Gaider originally intended for the elves to begin aging due to humans but then changed the story  and made the Dread wolf responsible for that!?Well that's not good but at least no so bad if compared to even worse kind of sloppy writing retcon DA had in order to force the plot regardless of player choice Like Leliana and Oghren resurrection.


#3278
Secret Rare

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Like... come on - you realize that contradictions and retcons happen, even in most planned ahead series? I myself experienced that while writing my own stories, and believe me - I plan ahead with astounding detail. In stories that are large and complex some things are bound to change, which is even more true of AAA RPGs of such scope and difficulty in development. It's inevitable. This is why Leliana is alive in every worldstate. This is why Hawke isn't Inquisitor. Even big changes to narrative do little to deny existence of overarching plot, or planned direction of the series. Hawke may not be Inquisitor, but Inquisition as event and organization still happened and the world seems to head towards some sort of inevitable change.

 

 

Ehi let's be honest DAA, DA2 and DAI  couldn't have been planned 100% beforehand otherwise we would have never received lazy retcons like Oghren,Leliana and Anders  they have only the general ideas of the major events of sequels but they don't plan a whole game beforehand.

 

Edit

There are also the things that don't go as planned like the well of sorrow which was shifted into another game or the Architect which was cut from DAI or even the Solas romance which was not planned at the beginning and the addiction of races in the game which was originally planned to be for human only (and if the Inquisitor is an elf/dwarf/Qunari nobody cares)

This is their "planification"  of the main plots.


#3279
midnight tea

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I didn't know that Lol
It means that Gaider originally intended for the elves to begin aging due to humans but then changed the story  and made the Dread wolf responsible for that!?Well that's not good but at least no so bad if compared to even worse kind of sloppy writing retcon DA had in order to force the plot regardless of player choice Like Leliana and Oghren resurrection.

 

No, it doesn't mean that, and trying to extrapolate something like that from "elves who live far away from humans seem to live longer" is a fools' errand.

 

The detail is so vague and small it can only mean as little as "elves who live in poverty and constant fear of assault and exploitation by humans will naturally statistically live shorter than Dalish elves far removed from prejudiced humans societies and cared for in their tight-knit communities". Which is entirely reasonable.

 

Plus, we don't even know the race relations between or right after the creation of the Veil, so we don't even know if there's *indeed* something about humans that makes elves lives shorter on some sort of magical level, while we do indeed know that *every* child coming from a union between and elf and human will be a human, and there's magic at works there. Nothing about this was changed.

There's simply too little information on that, and while we know now that the mortality couldn't have been brought by humans, it's recorded that they brought a variety of illnesses elves didn't know. How closeness to humanity and why it affects elves is then yet an unknown, and NONE of the information brought in-game or writers throw much - if any - light on the matter. 

 

 

Ehi let's be honest DAA, DA2 and DAI  couldn't have been planned 100% beforehand otherwise we would have never received lazy retcons like Oghren ,Leliana and Anders.

 

But the argument wasn't that they've been "100% planned beforehand" :angry: Merely that the series as a whole and major story beats have been planned (and even humorously foreshadowed in DAI, as revealed recently to general public by Mike Laidlaw) and the general direction the franchise took is largely deliberate, rather than a mere effect of being surprised by DAO's success.

 

Making it as if I or anyone else was arguing that "everything as planned ahead" is nothing more than a strawman. You'll be hard-pressed to find any series - books, games or movies - that are "100% planned beforehand". Like I said - details change. It's natural. I've experienced it myself with my own stories. Doesn't make my stories any less planned ahead.

 

This is exactly why Gaider said in this interview that the epilogues for DAO - something they added fairly quickly later in development of the game *in case* they didn't get a chance to make a sequel, which Gaider makes very clear - were a problem for them later. They went so far into the future that it was hard sometimes to write around a detail or two that was later changed or modified. Yet even the fact itself that they went ahead so much in the future in those epilogues speaks volumes of how much they've had planned ahead beyond DAO.


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#3280
BansheeOwnage

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Making it as if I or anyone else was arguing that "everything as planned ahead" is nothing more than a strawman. You'll be hard-pressed to find any series - books, games or movies - that are "100% planned beforehand". Like I said - details change. It's natural. I've experienced it myself with my own stories. Doesn't make my stories any less planned ahead.

Yeah, that. I haven't seen anyone claiming that DA was planned 100% from the start. That's obviously not the case. But I also think it's obvious that many overarching ideas were planned before they came to fruition, even if only in broad strokes at first. It's as simple as that.


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#3281
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No, it doesn't mean that, and trying to extrapolate something like that from "elves who live far away from humans seem to live longer" is a fools' errand.

 

The detail is so vague and small it can only mean as little as "elves who live in poverty and constant fear of assault and exploitation by humans will naturally statistically live shorter than Dalish elves far removed from prejudiced humans societies and cared for in their tight-knit communities". Which is entirely reasonable.

 

 

I understand what you mean here but that he said:
"The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live."  
seem to imply that this was his idea in DAO and that "seem" is the only thing that save him
 

 

 

Plus, we don't even know the race relations between or right after the creation of the Veil, so we don't even know if there's *indeed* something about humans that makes elves lives shorter on some sort of magical level, while we do indeed know that *every* child coming from a union between and elf and human will be a human, and there's magic at works there. Nothing about this was changed.

There's simply too little information on that, and while we know now that the mortality couldn't have been brought by humans, it's recorded that they brought a variety of illnesses elves didn't know. How closeness to humanity and why it affects elves is then yet an unknown, and NONE of the information bright in-game or writers throw much - if any - light on the matter. 

 

 

I understand that point as well but Kirby said that city elves don't have a shorter lifespan than Dalish elves while  Solas said that humans did nothing he took all the blame he did not implied anything else than the veil as the reason.

 

 

But the argument wasn't that they've been "100% planned beforehand" :angry: Merely that the series as a whole and major story beats have been planned (and even humorously foreshadowed in DAI, as revealed recently to general public by Mike Laidlaw) and the general direction the franchise took is largely deliberate, rather than a mere effect of being surprised by DAO's success.

 

Making it as if I or anyone else was arguing that "everything as planned ahead" is nothing more than a strawman. You'll be hard-pressed to find any series - books, games or movies - that are "100% planned beforehand". Like I said - details change. It's natural. I've experienced it myself with my own stories. Doesn't make my stories any less planned ahead.

 

This is exactly why Gaider said in this interview that the epilogues for DAO - something they added fairly quickly later in development of the game *in case* they didn't get a chance to make a sequel, which Gaider makes very clear - were a problem for them later. They went so far into the future that it was hard sometimes to write around a detail or two that was later changed or modified. Yet even the fact itself that they went ahead so much in the future in those epilogues speaks volumes of how much they've had planned ahead beyond DAO.

Not being 100% planned is not an issue since this is true for  most fictional works but that they severely alter the main plot during the development process is a totally different matter.For example if they resurrect Anders from DAA so that he could blow up the chantry in DAII then that become an huge retcon....
If  they plan a game to be human only  and craft the game to work with an human Inquisitor when they insert races they make things to look surreal.
 


#3282
German Soldier

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If  they plan a game to be human only  and craft the game to work with an human Inquisitor when they insert races they make things to look surreal.
 

 

Apparently the religious zealots that make up half of the inquisition are all completely tolerant of eachothers race and  religion. Lovely that.


#3283
Almostfaceman

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A forum is for sharing ideas and opinions, not just praising things unconditionally, If you don't like what i have to say about the game, then fine, but you need to grow a thicker skin about it. If you reduce a forum to only those who love the current product and Solas, then it just becomes an echo chamber and is of no practical benefit to anyone. It might make you feel better to gather fellow lovers  together and croon over it, and you have the right to do that on specific threads.  

The very nature of the thread invites spirited debate. Just because I don't like the game, doesn't mean I don't care about the series.

 

 

 

 

You're the one who said you're done with the series. So obviously, according to your own words, you don't care about the series anymore. 

 

Further griping about the series is just you griping to gripe. Which is weird. 

 

Why would I need thick skin? To me people like you are an oddity, a wonder of humanity, drawn to things you no longer like just to work yourselves up a bit. It's like purposely sitting in the heat of the sun then complaining about it instead of moving into the shade and cooling off. I brought logic to your statement just to see if you'd still argue to sit in the sun. lol, and clearly you are. 

 

This isn't about debate, you made statements about your disdain for the series, what's to debate about that? Should someone debate you're not entitled to your opinion? That would be ridiculous.

 

Anyone who's read this thread knows I don't demand fealty to Solas. That's a strawman. I'll debate with people over how he is or isn't characterized in the series but I never demand people be as interested in the character as I am.   


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#3284
midnight tea

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I understand what you mean here but that he said:
"The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live."  
seem to imply that this was his idea in DAO and that "seem" is the only thing that save him

 

What does it matter that "it was his idea"? It doesn't negate anything I said.

 

I understand that point as well but Kirby said that city elves don't have a shorter lifespan than Dalish elves while  Solas said that humans did nothing he took all the blame he did not implied anything else than the veil as the reason.

 

Neither Kirby's or Solas's statements negate anything about the immortality loss being a side-effect of the Veil, especially that available records make it seem like elves only noticed that they've lost their immortality after interacting with humans.

 

The fact IS that Mary Kirby's and Gaider's statements obviously refer to modern lifespans and are so vague that we can't extrapolate anything from them about the state of elvhen immortality prior to human contact NOR what affects it now (aside from Veil) and to what extent.

That Solas took responsibility for elves losing immortality, which shifts blame to him form humans means little nor contradicts anything, since we don't know YET how the creation of the Veil has affected humans themselves or elves right after the Veil was created - but we do know that Solas readily admits that the Veil has cut *most people's conscious connection to the Fade" making no distinction at that time on elves, humans or Qunari.

So there are obviously many lore reveals we have to wait for to actually find out what the whole immortality business is about and if interactions between races affects it in any way, and if so - how.

 

Basically you're taking a way too vague of a comment and make it seem like it reveals or contradicts way more than it actually does.

 

Not being 100% planned is not an issue since this is true for  most fictional works but that they severely alter the main plot during the development process is a totally different matter.For example if they resurrect Anders from DAA so that he could blow up the chantry in DAII then that become an huge retcon....

If  they plan a game to be human only  and craft the game to work with an human Inquisitor when they insert races they make things to look surreal.

 

You realize that this has little to do with how the story was written or planned, but with the nature of game development? Just listen to interviews I linked. They DID plan adding other races - then they've had to cut it because they've had no time for it. Gaider even said that if only they've had time race selection *would* be a part of DA2, but guess what - they had to work with what they had.

THEN, during DAI development, they were given additional year to work with DAI, which means that races were added, as well as additional romances, including Solas' one. Does this mean that Solas wasn't planned at all? Not at all - simply more of development time made that facet of story and character possible to be realized and available to us.

 

That's the nature of game (or movie, or TV series) development - changes, including those that are relatively 'severe'. It's natural and expected in such complex creative field - the best the writers can do is stick to the heart of the story and make it all look as cohesive as possible. It doesn't change anything about the story still heading in the direction they've been planning to take it.

 

Nothing that was revealed by writers indicates any new shift or late addition of overarching story after DAO's success - on the contrary: after major reveals in DAI/Trespasser, the devs keep making comments after comments that make it clear that they've had the major story beats all planned ahead, and they can come forward with this now, since cat's out of the bag so to speak.

It's one of reasons why people keep scouring past titles for details and hidden information - because it's obvious that there will be future reveals in future titles and many of them are foreshadowed in past titles in one way or another. You know - like Solas being revealed to be Fen'Harel in post-epilogue slide and Flemeth being Mythal makes people realize in hindsight how many things were pointing in that direction long before the reveal actually happened.


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#3285
Macha'Anu

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Ehi let's be honest DAA, DA2 and DAI  couldn't have been planned 100% beforehand otherwise we would have never received lazy retcons like Oghren,Leliana and Anders  they have only the general ideas of the major events of sequels but they don't plan a whole game beforehand.
 
Edit
There are also the things that don't go as planned like the well of sorrow which was shifted into another game or the Architect which was cut from DAI or even the Solas romance which was not planned at the beginning and the addiction of races in the game which was originally planned to be for human only (and if the Inquisitor is an elf/dwarf/Qunari nobody cares)
This is their "planification"  of the main plots.


The videos that was linked, gaider actually says " we started planning dai right after origins" I'm adlibbing because it's late but I remember them discussing thst and him saying da 2 was a specific story they wanted to tell and dai was the special delivery they worked on for years almost right after dao. So um there is that.

#3286
midnight tea

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The videos that was linked, gaider actually says " we started planning dai right after origins" I'm adlibbing because it's late but I remember them discussing thst and him saying da 2 was a specific story they wanted to tell and dai was the special delivery they worked on for years almost right after dao. So um there is that.

 

Gaider said that they knew broad strokes of the story for DA3 before they even started working on DA2 - and DA2 began its life as an expansion for DAO.


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#3287
Lunatica

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 I find Inquisitor to be well-realized (a victim of circumstances with an extraordinary destiny thrust upon them and asked to grow into their role as a savior and Thedosian demigod) and now only having more chances for even more realization - way more than Hawke and HoF ever had.

 

And how the Inquisitor is, is of course a matter of how people play them, but I fail to see how they don't stand on their own. They're in a unique position in fact compared to most (all?) Thedas heroes, both in terms of their role in the world, as well as their story - they have an active, complex relationship with possibly one of the most interesting antagonists/characters BW ever had... and in DA4 they'll be established heroes and war veterans who may yet get choices and further development that can go way beyond what we've seen before in any DA game; which would be IMPOSSIBLE to achieve if the story was only limited to one chapter.

 

 

What I'd actually like to see more is characters who don't just stumble randomly into the game or are passively being maneuvered into it as someone's else pawn but who deliberately choose a dangerous duty. Rising to the occasion is one thing, but it's gotten a bit old.

In Dragon Age, they traditionally don't let the protagonists  be real characters and in this franchise it's explicitly all about Thedas the NPCs anyway.
 
If Trespasser and other past games anything to go by, you're going to play another cipher that exists only as a story vehicle and to provide characterization and support for the all-important NPCs in entirely one-sided conversations, until you are thrown out like the useless dead weight that is the other ex-PCs once the game is over. To be the protagonist, you'd have to play an actual character first, to say nothing of being allowed to have any actual personal impact.
Bioware writes some really good NPCs, but their overall storytelling has always been rocky and their treatment of the player characters incredibly lacking. It's not our story. It's Solas' story and likely Mythal/Flemeth/Morrigan's story. We're just there to enable and admire them and then be discarded so we can't rock the metaplot-boat.

 

Sorry, but what is problem for you aren't problems for others.We could have known more about Corypheus, but overall his role in the story is intriguing and fairly unique - he's a pawn to powers he barely understands and an unwitting, ironic savior of Thedas.

 

And the "he wasn't given a chance to be an actual character" is nothing more than an empty slogan. Archdemon was as dangerous and crucial to the story in DAO and we hardly knew anything about it. Was it necessary for the story to be good? No - the story doesn't have to rely on deep characterization of its antagonist to move (some stories don't even have an antagonist), ESPECIALLY one that is NOT a stand-alone story, and we get to know more and more about the world and who nudges or shoves history in it in later installments, unfolding the bigger picture before our eyes. Corypheus served similar role - he was the catalyst for the main story, whose main focus was the rise of Inquisition AND slowly unraveling the mysteries of Thedas that go beyond corrupted magister who unleashed something evil on the world and wants to do evil stuff now.

 

 

Er, yes they should and they do. That's what a great deal of characters in fiction do. HOW they do it can be a matter of debate, and I'm afraid that in case of DAI you and I won't find agreement. I greatly enjoy Corpyheus' role in the story, even if I wish I could see a bit more of characterization. I loved the fact that a Blight-infected maniac ultimately saved the world from possibly-redeemable old hero and made the world unite itself in their struggles to pull themselves from a brink of chaos they almost brought on themselves by their own hands, through their petty and oftentimes pointless conflicts and inability to unite unless end of the world knocks at their door. Ironic twists of fate, FTW.

 

 

If you don't care for anything or anyone but what you got out of it, good for you and I honestly don't mean that sarcastically at all. People do want different things from their games. But I think it's damn obvious that the purpose of Trespasser was to utterly gut the Inquisition and Inquisitor to make sure they can't inconvenience the precious metaplot. It takes Inquisition's premise and ending and turns it inside out, to the point where actually being invested in the organization and characters feels like a huge mistake, because it should have been obvious given Bioware's history (especially in this franchise) that the player character was never actually going to matter.
 
Cory just wants to get back to that City without any reflection on his part about what happened in the past.This is not very good for an interesting character.
At no point after Haven did he feel like a serious threat to the Inquisition or The rest of Thedas. He spent half of the game with his tail between his legs licking his wounds and if you think that he should just serve to be a vehicle for the story then you have lower standards than mine in terms of what an Antagonist should serve into a plot.

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#3288
Dragongirl24

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And again so many pages are added since the last time i was online i say it again Solas is popular very popular  :P



#3289
Melyanna

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And again so many pages are added since the last time i was online i say it again Solas is popular very popular  :P

 

I sometimes come here to read answers to why people like Solas so much (I am guilty of liking him by the way) but then thread makes my head hurt. :D



#3290
Dragongirl24

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I sometimes come here to read answers to why people like Solas so much (I am guilty of liking him by the way) but then thread makes my head hurt. :D

 

I like him to i do not love him as some of them do here but again i do like him. 



#3291
Dragongirl24

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I sometimes come here to read answers to why people like Solas so much (I am guilty of liking him by the way) but then thread makes my head hurt. :D

 

I just don't have the time to read them all there are just so many replies since the last time i visited this forum. It would take me hours to read them all hours that i simply do not have.  



#3292
Sah291

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I just don't have the time to read them all there are just so many replies since the last time i visited this forum. It would take me hours to read them all hours that i simply do not have.


It's ok. You can always just jump in the middle. When it comes to Solas, the same debates tend to come back around again anyway. ;)

#3293
Sah291

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If Trespasser and other past games anything to go by, you're going to play another cipher that exists only as a story vehicle and to provide characterization and support for the all-important NPCs in entirely one-sided conversations, until you are thrown out like the useless dead weight that is the other ex-PCs once the game is over. To be the protagonist, you'd have to play an actual character first, to say nothing of being allowed to have any actual personal impact.
Bioware writes some really good NPCs, but their overall storytelling has always been rocky and their treatment of the player characters incredibly lacking. It's not our story. It's Solas' story and likely Mythal/Flemeth/Morrigan's story. We're just there to enable and admire them and then be discarded so we can't rock the metaplot-boat.

To be honest, I kind of agree that this is a weakness in Bioware's style... I do often feel as if the protagonist is one of the other characters, and that the PC is actually more the supporting character in the story.

Like in DAI, I feel the protagonist is really Cassandra. You could say Solas, but since he's more an antagonist, I'd say Cass or maybe Leliana. They have the most fleshed out character arc. Starting the Inquisition, gathering members, finding a leader/figurehead (the Inquisitor), struggling with their beliefs and internal Chantry conflicts and relationship with Justinia...and ultimately rising to Divine to take her place.

The Inquisitor comes into the story as the mysterious stranger with the mysterious power, who helps turn the tide in their favor. I found it interesting to play, since this type of character doesn't tend to be the protagonist usually...

But, I think a lot of that has to do with that fact that we aren't playing a fixed character, so a lot necessarily has to ride on the NPCs and companions to drive the plot forward, to make up for it. This was one area I thought DA2 did better.
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#3294
midnight tea

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What I'd actually like to see more is characters who don't just stumble randomly into the game or are passively being maneuvered into it as someone's else pawn but who deliberately choose a dangerous duty. Rising to the occasion is one thing, but it's gotten a bit old.

In Dragon Age, they traditionally don't let the protagonists  be real characters and in this franchise it's explicitly all about Thedas the NPCs anyway.

 

Not really sure what's the difference between "rising to the occasion" and "choosing a dangerous duty". I mean, either way the character will have to be railroaded into the plot. And you can't expect the game with a complex, overarching plot to have a character just "choose" a dangerous duty... or walk away from it, because what else? You could argue that you can do that in TES - just ignore the main plot, but there's a reason why in TES the main plot isn't really much developed, an only takes a small % of all available content...

 

There's also a reason why one of DA's major focuses is struggling with destiny thrust upon the player in one way or another, or dealing with a situation larger than they are. The design of gameplay or story isn't the only thing that determines how the PCs are situated in the plot - it's an actively and deliberately explored theme. So being annoyed about it r PCs role in the story and how it's done is a bit like being annoyed that, say, "Animal Farm" is an allegory about Stalinism and not a story about animals.

 

Also: I'm sure you realize that how "real" the character is is largely dependent on a player. That's the nature of RPGs - you don't just passively watch the character unfold and "be real"; you have to add something from yourself, be it through choices in game, responses or plain old headcanon on certain occasions. Audience participation in story like this is crucial, no matter of boundaries put in game (we can only be Wardens/Champion/Inquisitor, etc) and how little you think your choices may matter in the end. 

 

Like... you can't be serious in comparing *customzable* PCs and well-defined NPCs! Obviously it may seem that it's their story anyway, because aside from choices we help them make in their personal quests or approval level their characterization doesn't rely on us. PCs does. How real you make it depends in large part on you.

 

 

 

If Trespasser and other past games anything to go by, you're going to play another cipher that exists only as a story vehicle and to provide characterization and support for the all-important NPCs in entirely one-sided conversations, until you are thrown out like the useless dead weight that is the other ex-PCs once the game is over. To be the protagonist, you'd have to play an actual character first, to say nothing of being allowed to have any actual personal impact.
Bioware writes some really good NPCs, but their overall storytelling has always been rocky and their treatment of the player characters incredibly lacking. It's not our story. It's Solas' story and likely Mythal/Flemeth/Morrigan's story. We're just there to enable and admire them and then be discarded so we can't rock the metaplot-boat.

 

Well LOL, all characters are story vehicles, including Solas and Flemythal. They're the catalysts who help our characters act, make decisions and so on and in return they are influenced by decisions of our character. In other words I find your assessment as being quite one-sided and not taking into account the context of PCs characterization having to be somewhat murky in default story in order to help the player make them their own.

 

That naturally means that the NPCs, especially recurring ones (how many NPCs there were since DAO and how many were discarded when they weren't necessary to the plot, ey?), appear to be more memorable or that the story is "about them" - because they're a constant in every playthrough. You can't expect the PC to be that constant, when a player can make many different choices, including how liked they are, or even if they're dead or alive in some cases.

 

Basically, you're confusing two things. The PC is always a cipher, a story vehicle and audience's surrogate - they will always be important to the story, but (depending how customizable they are) they will always be something of a blank slate. The RPG element of the game is what allows us to make them "real" at least individually, to us, in every playthrough.

 

We can always discuss how the options available in the game help us with characterization or let the PC stand out, or whether it's fair to them to be "discarded" like a "useless dead weight"... HOWEVER, if Trespasser is aything to go by this is likely NOT the fate that is going to await our Inquisitor. At the very end of the DLC they're basically given a new arc and new task, and if post-credit scene and recent hints are any good indicators, they are elevated to a role of "players" in an elaborate game for fate of Thedas and - depending on their past choices - can have a very different relationship with what appears to be future antagonist, which may or may not have a direct influence over how we deal with him. How is that "one-sided and discarding a character like a dead weight" I'm not exactly sure.

 

 

 

If you don't care for anything or anyone but what you got out of it, good for you and I honestly don't mean that sarcastically at all. People do want different things from their games. But I think it's damn obvious that the purpose of Trespasser was to utterly gut the Inquisition and Inquisitor to make sure they can't inconvenience the precious metaplot. It takes Inquisition's premise and ending and turns it inside out, to the point where actually being invested in the organization and characters feels like a huge mistake, because it should have been obvious given Bioware's history (especially in this franchise) that the player character was never actually going to matter.

 

Well obviously I have an entirely different impression, as described above. If anything it's the Trespasser that made me convinced that we're going to see Inquisitor in a major role in terms of moving the plot forward.

 

The "gutting" I hardly see as gutting at all - they lose a hand and an Anchor, but I considered it a clever and actually very sensible move, especially if they want to bring Inky back. Why? Because at the very end of base game, I sat there, wondering... "okay, so are they just going to leave what is ultimately a near-god who effectively rules all South and has a unique magical power, which Morrigan theorized is a key to open gates to Black City and who said that Corypheus likely fears what Inquisitors will do if they find out how to do it? Huh, if they don't remove them somehow this is going to bite them in the a** later in tehstory, HARD".

 

Needless to say, when I saw Trespasser's teasers for a while, especially the image where Inky disappears into the mirror, I was convinced that BW is either going to either kill our PCs off or "send them to parts unknown", so they wouldn't be able to unravel any plot they could throw at us just by marching in and flashing their superpower they'd likely have time mastering or researching over the years.

 

But by removing the Anchor they evened out the field - they removed the problematic power, while leaving the character AND an organization, that is now free to secretly work against Fen'Harel, rather than being pulled in all directions by Orlais, Ferelden or whoever else there was.

With Inquisitor either "retiring" or working for Divine, they can actually focus on the task at hand, and while they may not have as much influence as they had before, it's unreasonable to assume that they don't have any pull or allies at all, or that anybody has "gutted" their coffers or secrets and powers they discovered or researched, either during base game, Descent, JoH or Trespasser. Anchor or not, the Inquisitor still remains the biggest badass in Thedas, with dozens of dragons downed, people all across bordrers impressed ro fearing them and alliances made. Inqusition so far remains the only organization who has any idea who Solas is and what he's planning and any power we know of that can even attempt to track him down and stop him.

 

 

Cory just wants to get back to that City without any reflection on his part about what happened in the past.This is not very good for an interesting character.

At no point after Haven did he feel like a serious threat to the Inquisition or The rest of Thedas. He spent half of the game with his tail between his legs licking his wounds and if you think that he should just serve to be a vehicle for the story then you have lower standards than mine in terms of what an Antagonist should serve into a plot.

 

Er... you sure you're not confusing terms here? Like - you imply that people who expect an antagonist to 'just serve' as a vehicle for the story have lower standards, but it's YOU who want Cory to be a bigger vehicle for the story :huh: Character-driven story = the character is a vehicle for the story. The plot is determined by their actions and internal struggles or is focused on them, and thus they are the ones that move it forward, rather than external factors.

 

Either way - I simply don't look at the role of antagonist the same way you do, OR I expect for antagonist to fulfill the same role in every story I enjoy. I don't expect the plot of the game to be driven entirely by protagonists or antagonists - or that there should effectively be ONE antagonist, or ONE problem to overcome (or if there even should be an antagonist at all. The story can be good without them and I enjoy the drama where the "antagonist" itself isn't even personalized - a disaster, a complex situation, an illness, war with no defined 'good or 'bad' side, and so on). I simply look at the bigger picture.

 

In Inquisition, rather than Corypheus, the main "antagonist" or the story is actually the state the world is in - weakened, quarreling, infested with all kinds of problems and with many mysteries and ancient powers lurking in the shadows, waiting for its moment to strike. It's been like that since DAO, where what threatened Ferelden wasn't as much a Blight, but internal conflict that tear the country apart and not let it unite even in face of Archdemon leading hordes of monsters of the surface.

 

Also - Cory is a Blight-infested magister who's been Blighted for millenia. Since the Blight is effectively shown to twist living beings into monsters or caricatures of themselves it's actually pretty impressive that Cory still managed to have an agency of his own AND that he almost descended on South with an army consisting of South's own Wardens, Templars and mages, and bringing an army of demons and feared Tevinter supremacists behind them, together with Red Lyrium infestation and Nightmare feeding itself fat on people's fears.

That his scheming machine was at full speed when he arrived at the Conclave and that it began falling apart after Inquisitor disrupted the ritual doesn't change the fact that he almost succeeded and that it still took monumental effort for the South to try and overcome its own problems in order to even try and face the 'evil' they themselves had am unwitting hand in helping rising.

 

That in itself is an interesting story to tell and one that I enjoy. Corypheus' biggest fault is simply that it's an easy target - it's easy to focus on him; it's easy to blame everything on his madness, ambition and Blight-infestation. Introspection? Examining world and seeing things in ourselves that we may have to try and fix? That's a harder feat to pull, but one that ultimately is a focus of this particular story.


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#3295
BansheeOwnage

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In Dragon Age, they traditionally don't let the protagonists  be real characters and in this franchise it's explicitly all about Thedas the NPCs anyway.
 
If Trespasser and other past games anything to go by, you're going to play another cipher that exists only as a story vehicle and to provide characterization and support for the all-important NPCs in entirely one-sided conversations, until you are thrown out like the useless dead weight that is the other ex-PCs once the game is over. To be the protagonist, you'd have to play an actual character first, to say nothing of being allowed to have any actual personal impact.
Bioware writes some really good NPCs, but their overall storytelling has always been rocky and their treatment of the player characters incredibly lacking. We're just there to enable and admire them and then be discarded so we can't rock the metaplot-boat.

 

But I think it's damn obvious that the purpose of Trespasser was to utterly gut the Inquisition and Inquisitor to make sure they can't inconvenience the precious metaplot. It takes Inquisition's premise and ending and turns it inside out, to the point where actually being invested in the organization and characters feels like a huge mistake, because it should have been obvious given Bioware's history (especially in this franchise) that the player character was never actually going to matter.

Unfortunately, I tend to agree with all the stuff I left in that quote. I'm not a fan of protagonists being secondary/lacklustre compared to NPCs, I'm not a fan of one-sided conversations, I'm not a fan of Dragon Age being about the player instead of the protagonists, and I'm not a fan of Trespasser gutting the Inquisition and Inquisitor. Well, at least if it's the last we see of them. I could forgive it if we do.



#3296
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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Too bad his EQ is very low. It's really sad because when I took him with me on an assignment with Iron Bull, his contact Gat is with the Qun as an agent of the Ben Hassareth, and Solas was pissed that he joined the Qun. But he of all people should know that the elven people list their history and culture so they adapt to other cultures.

#3297
The Elder King

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Too bad his EQ is very low. It's really sad because when I took him with me on an assignment with Iron Bull, his contact Gat is with the Qun as an agent of the Ben Hassareth, and Solas was pissed that he joined the Qun. But he of all people should know that the elven people list their history and culture so they adapt to other cultures.

As far as I recall the only elves who 'adapt' to other cultures are the alienage elves. The qunari elves keep even less then their culture then the alienage elves, since they have to completely adhere to the Qun (Which I wouldn't call it just a culture). The dalish or the elves of the Dales don't certainly adapt to other cultures, and neither did Arlathan, so I don't see why Solas should think that. 

Also, Solas heavily dislike the Qun, so that's another reason why he might be disappointed.



#3298
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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As far as I recall the only elves who 'adapt' to other cultures are the alienage elves. The qunari elves keep even less then their culture then the alienage elves, since they have to completely adhere to the Qun (Which I wouldn't call it just a culture). The dalish or the elves of the Dales don't certainly adapt to other cultures, and neither did Arlathan, so I don't see why Solas should think that. 
Also, Solas heavily dislike the Qun, so that's another reason why he might be disappointed.

But the Qunari never enslaved his people and sacrificed them by blood magic, IDK what the hell he's thinking. And he if all people should know what to do: Teach the people their history to ensure never to repeat history ever again. As I said his EQ is mighty low.

#3299
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But the Qunari never enslaved his people and sacrificed them by blood magic, IDK what the hell he's thinking. And he if all people should know what to do: Teach the people their history to ensure never to repeat history ever again. As I said his EQ is mighty low.

The Qun doesn't have to enslave elves (putting aside that likely some elves did die or become forced labour force for the Qun) for Solas to loathe them. He might dislike the Qun for what it rapresents, or something else.

As for the humans, putting aside if he truly considers all the elves his people (we don't know that)he might think that not all are responsible for what happened to the elves. Plus, his own kind enslaved themselves and he still wanted/Wants to save them.

Other then that you should consider that his plans would either end the human race or collapse their societies completely, so it's not like his liking or loathing of the humans change much in the bigger picture.



#3300
roselavellan

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Too bad his EQ is very low. It's really sad because when I took him with me on an assignment with Iron Bull, his contact Gat is with the Qun as an agent of the Ben Hassareth, and Solas was pissed that he joined the Qun. But he of all people should know that the elven people list their history and culture so they adapt to other cultures.

 

I think this is really more about the Qun. Solas is ideologically opposed to the Qun (you will see this in all his banters with the IB), because he believes that people should be free, whilst there is no individual freedom under the Qun.


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