4635 réponses à ce sujet

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I think this is really more about the Qun. Solas is ideologically opposed to the Qun (you will see this in all his banters with the IB), because he believes that people should be free, whilst there is no individual freedom under the Qun.

I would get angry @ Tevinter more than the Qun because they actually enslaving and slaughtering people and IDK WTF he's thinking about. At least under the Qun you do what you meant to do and be happy of what you're supposed to do but I can understand why he's pissed off @ them because the way they treat their mages. That's another whole different story if it's just that.

[The Elder King]

I would get angry @ Tevinter more than the Qun because they actually enslaving and slaughtering people and IDK WTF he's thinking about. At least under the Qun you do what you meant to do and be happy of what you're supposed to do but I can understand why he's pissed off @ them because the way they treat their mages. That's another whole different story if it's just that.

It's not just about mages, i think. It's their general society.

[Mistic]

I would get angry @ Tevinter more than the Qun because they actually enslaving and slaughtering people and IDK WTF he's thinking about. At least under the Qun you do what you meant to do and be happy of what you're supposed to do but I can understand why he's pissed off @ them because the way they treat their mages. That's another whole different story if it's just that.

 

I think that, from Solas' point of view, everyone is a slave under the Qun. For him, those who find happiness in it are no better than satisfied slaves. The fact that the Qun actively teaches that's the natural state of things makes it worse. But well, Solas himself explains it in his dialogue with Gat:

 

"A slave may always struggle for freedom. But you among the Qun have been taught not to think".

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I think that, from Solas' point of view, everyone is a slave under the Qun. For him, those who find happiness in it are no better than satisfied slaves. The fact that the Qun actively teaches that's the natural state of things makes it worse. But well, Solas himself explains it in his dialogue with Gat:
 
"A slave may always struggle for freedom. But you among the Qun have been taught not to think".

But look at Gat's situation. He's been a slave since he was a little boy and he got raped by a magister, Iron Bull saved him and took him to the Qun to give him refuge. But Solas is so self righteous and full of himself he can't see past his misconceptions and take the time to learn from people's perspectives. He is emotionally dumb when it comes to these matters.

[Ieldra]

But look at Gat's situation. He's been a slave since he was a little boy and he got raped by a magister, Iron Bull saved him and took him to the Qun to give him refuge. But Solas is so self righteous and full of himself he can't see past his misconceptions and take the time to learn from people's perspectives. He is emotionally dumb when it comes to these matters.

There are no misconceptions. He clearly thinks that to stop thinking is too high a price for happiness. And I agree. Tevinter treats its slaves as less than human. Under the Qun, you learn to make yourself less than human.

[Mistic]

But look at Gat's situation. He's been a slave since he was a little boy and he got raped by a magister, Iron Bull saved him and took him to the Qun to give him refuge. But Solas is so self righteous and full of himself he can't see past his misconceptions and take the time to learn from people's perspectives. He is emotionally dumb when it comes to these matters.

 

Personal experience alone is not enough to judge a system. It's easy to use a mistreated slave flourishing under the Qun as evidence theirs is the best system, but what if we compare those whose reeducation ends in mindwipe by qamek or mages, regardless their feelings, who are turned into eternally suffering beasts, with a satisfied slave in the Pavus household? Calpernia, for example, didn't have it nice in Tevinter, but she had it far better than any Saarebas. Does that mean that Tevinter's system is better?

 

The answer, of course, is a big NO. The Qun and the Imperium are a case of "choose your own poison". It's just that each poison works differently for different people. Iron Bull explains it very well:

 

"Some folks, like Cassandra or Cullen, would do fine... if they didn't die fighting. Those two love rules. But the mages... Can you imagine Solas trying his Fade-dreaming under the Qun? Or Vivienne doing her political bullshit? Both Sera and Varric would mouth off until they ended up reeducated, drugged until their minds broke."

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

There are no misconceptions. He clearly thinks that to stop thinking is too high a price for happiness. And I agree. Tevinter treats its slaves as less than human. Under the Qun, you learn to make yourself less than human.

The Qun makes a person more than any society can offer, I'm not saying the Qun is perfect far from it. But at least their government is stable that there is no crime that's rampant, infighting, never starve, and never to go without.

[Ieldra]

Personal experience alone is not enough to judge a system. It's easy to use a mistreated slave flourishing under the Qun as evidence theirs is the best system, but what if we compare those whose reeducation ends in mindwipe by qamek or mages, regardless their feelings, who are turned into eternally suffering beasts, with a satisfied slave in the Pavus household? Calpernia, for example, didn't have it nice in Tevinter, but she had it far better than any Saarebas. Does that mean that Tevinter's system is better?

 

The answer, of course, is a big NO. The Qun and the Imperium are a case of "choose your own poison". It's just that each poison works differently for different people. Iron Bull explains it very well:

 

"Some folks, like Cassandra or Cullen, would do fine... if they didn't die fighting. Those two love rules. But the mages... Can you imagine Solas trying his Fade-dreaming under the Qun? Or Vivienne doing her political bullshit? Both Sera and Varric would mouth off until they ended up reeducated, drugged until their minds broke."

I won't let the Qun get off that easily.

 

I've said it before: Tevinter is authoritarian, the Qun is totalitarian, which means that in Tevinter, spaces of freedom exist, while under the Qun they do not. That's why I put the Qun lower in my hierarchy of political systems.

 

Reference: https://en.wikipedia...itarian_regimes

 

@N7Phantom:

Consider this also my reply to you. The problem is exactly that "society offers". If you're a good follower. If you stop thinking about how things could be different. If you fulfil your allotted role. If you help along in your own conditioning. That this society does NOT offer, but rather denies two very important things - choice and independent thinking - negates most of its purported advantages.

[Mistic]

The problem is exactly that "society offers". If you're a good follower. If you stop thinking about how things could be different. If you fulfil your allotted role. If you help along in your own conditioning. That this society does NOT offer, but rather denies two very important things - choice and independent thinking - negates most of its purported advantages.

 

True. But that's the problem with slavery too.

 

Although I agree with your defintions, you have to take into account that Tevinter works in a class system. The minor freedoms and liberties allowed to some of the classes (which would fulfill the authoritarian criteria) don't affect all of them.

 

To take your example, a slave could try to be a good slave, stop to think about freedom, fulfill their role and help in supporting the system, and still end up abused, raped and finally killed to become a blood magic power-up if their master wishes so. There's no legal or social protection, and the limits of the powers that hold them are even less than those under totalitarian regimes. Society asks them for everything and offers absolutely nothing, only what each individual master is willing to offer.

 

Totalitarianism may be worse than authoritarianism, but slavery is worse than totalitarianism. The difference is that, while all under the Qun live under a totalitarian regime, Tevinter is divided by class. Slave? Worse than in a totalitarian state. Non-slave, but not a mage? Enjoy the authoritarian life. A mage? Ironically, close to a corrupted censitary democracy.

[Jaison1986]

I won't let the Qun get off that easily.

 

I've said it before: Tevinter is authoritarian, the Qun is totalitarian, which means that in Tevinter, spaces of freedom exist, while under the Qun they do not. That's why I put the Qun lower in my hierarchy of political systems.

 

Reference: https://en.wikipedia...itarian_regimes

 

@N7Phantom:

Consider this also my reply to you. The problem is exactly that "society offers". If you're a good follower. If you stop thinking about how things could be different. If you fulfil your allotted role. If you help along in your own conditioning. That this society does NOT offer, but rather denies two very important things - choice and independent thinking - negates most of its purported advantages.

 

That's a nice sentiment. But as much as I hate the qunari for some of the things they do, there are places that would be better off with them in charge then the current system. Orlais for all their culture, glory and power, is a petty country filled with pointless political struggle and self serving nobles that are more concerned with parties then their actual duties. How much stronger and efficient do you think they would be if the Qunari took charge and ended all this mindless futility?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

@N7Phantom:
Consider this also my reply to you. The problem is exactly that "society offers". If you're a good follower. If you stop thinking about how things could be different. If you fulfil your allotted role. If you help along in your own conditioning. That this society does NOT offer, but rather denies two very important things - choice and independent thinking - negates most of its purported advantages.

They are accustomed to order and if one person has a dissenting opinions and views usually they sit down to solve problems, but if a person causes harm and disturbing the peace then they'll use extreme measures on a subject or kill them. I talked to Iron Bull about it while ago about these issues but let me put it this way: The Qun is right and wrong because they take some things to the extreme how they treat their mages is beyond cruel, andI would've done it differently with the mages. I set up a monastery for them to learn meditation to concentrate self control of their powers and themselves, and I would give them a role of what they're good at after they passed the harrowing. It's a win-win.

[CardButton]

To be honest, I've always been a sucker for the Tragic Villain archetype (doubly in Solas' case because all of his problems are self-inflicted).  Combine that with the (admittedly remote) prospect of having an Antagonist that has a strong connection to a DA Protagonist for once ... and I'm a happy player!  Now admittedly I do Solas like as a character because I'm an absolute Lore Nut, but I would say I enjoy him more for "what he is" and "what he represents" more so than "who he is" at a gameplay standpoint.  

[Lady Artifice]

They are accustomed to order and if one person has a dissenting opinions and views usually they sit down to solve problems, but if a person causes harm and disturbing the peace then they'll use extreme measures on a subject or kill them. I talked to Iron Bull about it while ago about these issues but let me put it this way: The Qun is right and wrong because they take some things to the extreme how they treat their mages is beyond cruel, andI would've done it differently with the mages. I set up a monastery for them to learn meditation to concentrate self control of their powers and themselves, and I would give them a role of what they're good at after they passed the harrowing. It's a win-win.

 

 

And then magically brainwash the dissenter into permanent mental and physical slavery if they continue to rebel, if one doesn't want to gloss over what "using extreme measures," means. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

And then magically brainwash the dissenter into permanent mental and physical slavery if they continue to rebel.

Ah it's you! I thought you are done with me for a good minute!

[Almostfaceman]

if one person has a dissenting opinions and views usually they sit down to solve problems

 

Citation needed. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Citation needed.

Just talk to him and he'll tell you that they are people who disagree about things and he said they usually sit down to solve problems.

[Almostfaceman]

Just talk to him and he'll tell you that they are people who disagree about things and he said they usually sit down to solve problems.

 

Really? Where/when does he say that? Provide links, thanks. You've made a claim now it's time to back it up. 

[Hellion Rex]

Really? Where/when does he say that? Provide links, thanks. You've made a claim now it's time to back it up.

Considering the claim about Solas not stopping the Anchor from killing you was incorrect, I too would like some evidence to back up this claim.

[Macha'Anu]

There is obviously something wrong with the Qun if Iron Bulls couldn't bring himself to follow it..... So he isn't that dumb. The Qun itself suits bull but the people over it are bad mkay.

[Macha'Anu]

One should never sacrifice personal liberty for structure and order. Those who do deserve the sadness and chaos that comes with it.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Really? Where/when does he say that? Provide links, thanks. You've made a claim now it's time to back it up.

7:18-7:26

[Almostfaceman]

7:18-7:26

 

All this says is the priests solve the disagreements and the Ben Hassrath (again, the priests) set people straight and/or kill them. So again, we have no proof of people sitting down and settling their disagreements. We just have proof of a totalitarian authority coming in and squashing disagreement. The Ariqun are the priests and they're made up of the Tamassrans and the Ben Hassrath. 

 

The Qunari priests and by extent their leader the Ariqun, represent the soul, just as the Arishok represents the body and the Arigena represents the mind of the Qunari. Ariqun can be male or female.[1]

 

Ariqun commands the following branches of the Qunari priesthood:

 

The Tamassrans (a female gender role), who control the Qunari selective breeding program, raise all the children and officially assign their roles. The Tamassrans wield a huge amount of influence.

The Ben-Hassrath (can be both males and females), who primarily act as religious law enforcers, and "re-educate" both the unruly Qunari and new converts. They also act as Qunari spies.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ariqun

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

All this says is the priests solve the disagreementsand the Ben Hassrath (again, the priests) set people straight and/or kill them. So again, we have no proof of people sitting down and settling their disagreements. We just have proof of a totalitarian authority coming in and squashing disagreement. The Ariqun are the priests and they're made up of the Tamassrans and the Ben Hassrath.

The Qunari priests and by extent their leader the Ariqun, represent the soul, just as the Arishok represents the body and the Arigena represents the mind of the Qunari. Ariqun can be male or female.[1]

Ariqun commands the following branches of the Qunari priesthood:

The Tamassrans (a female gender role), who control the Qunari selective breeding program, raise all the children and officially assign their roles. The Tamassrans wield a huge amount of influence.
The Ben-Hassrath (can be both males and females), who primarily act as religious law enforcers, and "re-educate" both the unruly Qunari and new converts. They also act as Qunari spies.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ariqun

That's exactly what I meant I just said it in my own words. We probably have a misunderstanding then.

[Almostfaceman]

That's exactly what I meant I just said it in my own words. We probably have a misunderstanding then.

 

So when you said "if one person has a dissenting opinions and views usually they sit down to solve problems" what you actually meant is the priests step in and forcibly re-educate you. Gotcha. 

[Qun00]

We do have some actually - like I said, it's in Trespasser. Fen'Harel's statues have been found together with Mythal's statues (there's also a different abstract 'bird/dragon' statue that we find in other, open places when crossing eluvians - instead of 7 prongs/rays on its head it features only 2, signifying that it's an earlier iteration of a symbol likely used by Evanuris).

It just so happens that it's also in a mine that was opened aeons before the fall of Evanuris, as suggested by mural and rune on it, and closed some time before Fen'Harel's rebelion. The place was basically buried and the rune's author (90% it was Solas) advises for this place to never be visited again. Therefore Fen'Harel's statues couldn't realistically be put there after the rebellion, indicating that Solas was indeed in position of some authority in Elvenhan.

There are also Cole's cryptic comments "He did not need a body but she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face". As vague as it is, more than 50% of Cole's comment are pretty surely about Solas. And while it is possible that "her" may not be Mythal, since we know he had long, complex relationship with her, she's the first candidate that springs to mind.

Yes, the presence of clues is how theories are born. But until it is actually stated, that's all it will be.

And the "he wasn't given a chance to be an actual character" is nothing more than an empty slogan. Archdemon was as dangerous and crucial to the story in DAO and we hardly knew anything about it.

We had Loghain. An intelligent, complex and well written antagonist is a vital part of a good story.