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[Almostfaceman]

 And instead of struggling to adapt to the real world, he's obsessed with the past and will raze everything in his path by insisting to use an unstable, dangerous magic he doesn't fully understand to further his goal. Does that sound like the actions of a misunderstood, enlightened person to you?

 

The real world is being held back by a spell, called the Veil. "The land is under a magic spell/curse" is an old, old story device. I find the possibility of the Dragon Age reality being something more... intriguing. 

 

I've seen some people ponder that we may not know the whole story, but that's hardly justifying the really bad bits of his plan by calling him enlightened or misunderstood. 

 

Considering the possible plot that Bioware had with Mass Effect and the Reapers (the bad guys are actually trying to save the universe)... I wouldn't be surprised at all if we found out stuff about Solas's situation that cast even more shades of gray. But who knows, only time will tell. 

 

As for your comments about Sera and the Elves my take is different. I think the story supports Solas trying to tell the Dalish about their true history and Sera about her true nature... that's really not the same thing as telling them how to act. Nor is it consistent with not caring about either the Dalish or Sera. I mean, if you don't care, you don't bother to have either conversation. 

[Almostfaceman]

He's utilitarian. He's like Shepard and Garrus, weighing 1 billion souls against 2 billion that can be saved.
 

 

It's interesting you bring this up because I was pondering that we may find out that this is just the case. It's already been hinted that Solas did what he did to "save the world."

[Addictress]

It's interesting you bring this up because I was pondering that we may find out that this is just the case. It's already been hinted that Solas did what he did to "save the world."

So that's that, but I agree he is gambling. He runs the risk that his plan doesn't go as he thought it would and makes things even worse. But maybe he thinks it's worth the risk, and he must try. Didn't the illusive man have similar egotistical reasoning, salvaging the collector base, or Morrigan risking drinking from the well? Above all, too proud to admit he isn't as capable.

But everyone takes risks, in desperate situations. Recruiting the Mages to fix the breach was also a risk that could've made things worse in our inquisition's estimation.

It's difficult to navigate these waters and as long as it is difficult I consider it interesting.

[Almostfaceman]

But everyone takes risks, in desperate situations. Recruiting the Mages to fix the breach was also a risk that could've made things worse in our inquisition's estimation.
 

 

I think that's exactly the point. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we find out that Solas was in an almost-typical "hero has to save the world" situation and the repercussions were almost as bad as failure. 

 

Again, time will tell. I'm not making any predictions. 

[Patricia08]

Weird, I thought the thread was about this:

 

 

Uh no that's discussed in another topic of mine  

[Fiskrens]

I think that's exactly the point. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we find out that Solas was in an almost-typical "hero has to save the world" situation and the repercussions were almost as bad as failure. 
 
Again, time will tell. I'm not making any predictions.

Well, if DA4 is along this line of thought; "Shepard as villain", I'm all for it.

[midnight tea]

I think that's exactly the point. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we find out that Solas was in an almost-typical "hero has to save the world" situation and the repercussions were almost as bad as failure. 

 

Again, time will tell. I'm not making any predictions. 

 

I think I'm bold enough to predict that this may indeed be a lot about it - that Solas is a hero who took the risks and those risks have terrible consequences. There's no "happily ever after" for him, no "and he rode into the sunset after job well done"; he isn't even given a courtesy to die so other generations have to to deal with problems stemming from his decisions, as much as those decisions may have been necessary or justified at that time.

 

That in itself is an interesting story to tell and a character to analyze. And as much as Bioware would probably like (we see that everywhere, and I do hope we reach some interesting new heights in DA4) to tell that story through main protagonist, I don't think a considerable part of audience would appreciate it. We generally like to play heroes that win and our decisions to be mostly good, and we can see an evidence for that almost every time it turns out that player's choices have their share of less-than-stellar consequences, even if decisions themselves had to be made.

 

Anyway - it occurs to me that the thread went so quick and splintered to so many things that I never made it clear why I like Solas.

 

I like Solas, because I think that in his place I wouldn't be able to hold to reason, compassion and hope that he does, after all he's been through. And I consider myself to be a generally empathetic person who has something of a careful optimism in terms of where humanity goes and wants to believe that people are generally good, so they deserve 2nd, and sometimes even 10th chances.

 

But I think that - realistically - if I lived that long and went through so many wars, betrayals and circumstances demanding from me to make extreme decisions, only to watch everything burn and realize that the world suffers because of those decisions, as necessary they could have been at a time, and on top of that spend thousands of years alone, alienated and lonely... I'd eventually break so badly there would be no redemption story for me.

 

That Solas is still able to hold to a faint hope that he says that he's looking forward to his friend proving him wrong - that he can still even make friends or care about people he tried to forsake in his heart in order to carry out the millenia-long plan he's pretty much lost himself in; that he listens and is open to the possibility that he's wrong about everything that he turns around and considers changing or forsaking his mission if you show him just a little bit of understanding and compassion... the question becomes not "why I like Solas" but "how I could not like Solas?".

 

I simply love such stories - I love stories when a person is beaten down to a point where they almost turn to monsters (because realistically that could happen even to the best of us, depending on circumstances), but there's still a tether that holds them to their humanity thanks to which they have a possibility to turn their life around. That is incredibly optimistic for me.

[Medhia_Nox]

The real world is being held back by a spell, called the Veil. "The land is under a magic spell/curse" is an old, old story device. I find the possibility of the Dragon Age reality being something more... intriguing. 

 

I've seen some people ponder that we may not know the whole story, but that's hardly justifying the really bad bits of his plan by calling him enlightened or misunderstood. 

 

Considering the possible plot that Bioware had with Mass Effect and the Reapers (the bad guys are actually trying to save the universe)... I wouldn't be surprised at all if we found out stuff about Solas's situation that cast even more shades of gray. But who knows, only time will tell. 

 

As for your comments about Sera and the Elves my take is different. I think the story supports Solas trying to tell the Dalish about their true history and Sera about her true nature... that's really not the same thing as telling them how to act. Nor is it consistent with not caring about either the Dalish or Sera. I mean, if you don't care, you don't bother to have either conversation. 

 

This spell.  It was cast as a noble effort yes?  It had calamitous results if Solas' testimony is taken as gospel.

 

It has been this way for 3000 years.  Thedas, if it is an ecosystem at all, has clearly adjusted to a new environment.  A new reality. 

 

So - this time, Solas knows he will cause devastation.  Just rewatched the Tresspasser info.  He says, very clearly that the people of today will die.  I asked midnight tea if one old woman was worth the elves.  He said yes because of Star Trek (let's forget that the person inside the chamber makes the "Needs of the many statment..." the person doing the SACRIFICING.. not the person sacrificing others.) 

 

How many modern Thedosians does it taketo make this new premeditated apocalypse "noble" in your eyes to save the elves? 

[Addictress]

It would be kind of awesome if Control!Shepard finds out everyone evolved to produce super evil AI races again and came to the same conclusion as the reapers/Leviathans did and turns around the reapers to invade the Milky Way again, millenia after Shepard 'saved the galaxy' 

[Almostfaceman]

This spell.  It was cast as a noble effort yes?  It had calamitous results if Solas' testimony is taken as gospel.

 

It has been this way for 3000 years.  Thedas, if it is an ecosystem at all, has clearly adjusted to a new environment.  A new reality. 

 

So - this time, Solas knows he will cause devastation.  Just rewatched the Tresspasser info.  He says, very clearly that the people of today will die.  I asked midnight tea if one old woman was worth the elves.  He said yes because of Star Trek (let's forget that the person inside the chamber makes the "Needs of the many statment..." the person doing the SACRIFICING.. not the person sacrificing others.) 

 

How many modern Thedosians does it taketo make this new premeditated apocalypse "noble" in your eyes to save the elves? 

 

It can't be a new reality, if it's not reality. Words mean things. A new perspective is probably more accurate. The perspective of people deadened to reality. Having us look at beings called "the Tranquil" then having us consider that everybody may be "Tranquil" because of a magical spell... that makes the player ponder how they considered the Tranquil. 

 

You'll also note the "cure for the Tranquil" came up in this game and that cure was being considered probably harmful... maybe even more harmful than being Tranquil. Mirrors exactly the situation all beings find themselves in, in light of the games reveal on the Veil. 

 

How much nobility? I don't know. Bioware may be going for a different angle on "the ruthless calculation of war" mentioned by Garrus in Mass Effect. So the question may be, how much drama? How much feels? The Prothean asks Shepard the same thing if Shep is a Paragon. He asks... how much do your ideals mean to the trillions already dead? I think Bioware may be going for this same angle. 

 

Anybody who's played the game and said to themselves, "Wow, the Tranquil are just better off being dead," well this situation with the Veil gives them something to ponder. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Almostfaceman:  Do you believe the ability to do magic actually makes mages better human beings (or elves, or qunari) in DA?  

 

Also... concerning the Veil, the modern world you live in is nothing like the original world (the one that existed for 4 billion years prior to man).  Do you think if someone existed who could destroy all that has changed... that they should do it?  

 

Has there been no comparison to modern man being Tranquil?  I certainly think they are... as they mindlessly parade around clicking their phones, listening to their music and watching their iPads oblivious to the world around them.

[Almostfaceman]

@Almostfaceman:  Do you believe the ability to do magic actually makes mages better human beings (or elves, or qunari) in DA?  

 

Also... concerning the Veil, the modern world you live in is nothing like the original world (the one that existed for 4 billion years prior to man).  Do you think if someone existed who could destroy all that has changed... that they should do it?  

 

Has there been no comparison to modern man being Tranquil?  I certainly think they are... as they mindlessly parade around clicking their phones, listening to their music and watching their iPads oblivious to the world around them.

 

Well that's the question for any hero, right? Because in these stories, the hero has the power to "save the world." Call it magic or whatever. I think maybe the writers sat down and thought about doing just this to a hero of one of their games  - you know - save the world and have it go to crap, almost as bad as if it weren't saved. Then thought, "nah, that would ****** off too many players." Then thought, "but hey... if we can't do it to the player, maybe we can set something up to make the player think about what could possibly happen from being a hero."

 

As for your theoretical questions and if I'll answer them. Nah. They're far too broad, too generalized. If Bioware paints a more detailed theoretical I'll take a stab at answering those. 

 

But they're only so-so at doing so. Like the decision to destroy the Collector base or keep the base. Or the decision to toss the Wardens or keep them. I don't feel the questions or the answers were adequate and we pretty much had to "make do" with some fumbling approximate of how we'd really handle the situation. 

 

Maybe they'll do a better job with the Solas situation. We'll see. 

[Sah291]

It's kind of ironic, because I always thought that was part of the reason the writers of ME felt it was so necessary for Shepard to die at the end. By the end of the game, Shepard has done so many horrible things to fight the Reapers, blowing up a planet, possible genocide, etc... Nobody really wants to see a character like that live. Unless I guess you are playing them.

To me, it's a commentary on all the suffering that can be caused by people trying to save the world. Again, Solas isn't doing this out of a sense of conquest, or some sort of magical or racial superiority. It's out of misguided sense of duty, necessity, sacrifice, and selflessness. It's all for the greater good, to protect his people. That only makes him that much more interesting as a villian, because people rarely question these traits in a hero.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Almostfaceman:  A shame if that's they're actual thought... I'd prefer not to be pandered to like a simpleton who can't contemplate grown up ethical and philosophical decisions in my storytelling.  

 

Also... I'm not sure you've answered my first question at all.  

 

You think being "Tranquil" is terrible... but, it's clear that a mage and a mundane on Thedas possess the same basic sapience we do in our world.  So they're clearly not like what Thedosians call Tranquil.

 

What Solas calls "Tranquil" - we actually don't know.  Everyone is making it up and defining it to suit their arguments.  But... if he means "mages" - then it's clear he thinks mages are better than non-mages.  

[BansheeOwnage]

^ Well not ALL of them, geez. The most negative thing about Josephine is that she killed one young man a long time ago and still feels so bad about it that she's practically in tears as she relates the incident.

In self-defense, too.

 

Lol....she's only killed one guy, and she's practically a Disney princess by Dragon Age standards.... Yeah, they are all pretty horrible people.

At least they aren't half as bad as the average bioware protagonst, who is typically some megalomaniac on a power trip, who kills batches of random mobs every time they adventure outside, and tells companions what they want to hear for approval and favors. Haha.

I disagree, I don't think all of the companions are horrible people. I don't like the mercenary types, and especially the assassins, but there are good people among them, like Alistair, Cassandra, Varric, Dorian, Cole, and Cullen to name a few. And I know you're probably joking, but I also disagree about the protagonists.

 

It would be kind of awesome if Control!Shepard finds out everyone evolved to produce super evil AI races again and came to the same conclusion as the reapers/Leviathans did and turns around the reapers to invade the Milky Way again, millenia after Shepard 'saved the galaxy' 

Control Shepard isn't Shepard, they're a Reaper now. He/she/it/they even admit as much. And those speeches sound very ominous to me. They sound like the type of logic the Reapers would use to justify what they do. No, Control Shepard at best enforces an imperial peace. Step out of line, and suffer.

[Sah291]

I disagree, I don't think all of the companions are horrible people. I don't like the mercenary types, and especially the assassins, but there are good people among them, like Alistair, Cassandra, Varric, Dorian, Cole, and Cullen to name a few. And I know you're probably joking, but I also disagree about the protagonists.

Yeah I was joking. But just pointing out how none of these characters (protagonist included) are exactly ideal date material, held to real life standards. They are sensationalized. Josie is probably the nicest and most well adjusted, and even she killed somebody once. But nobody really wants to watch/play a love story where nothing dramatic ever happens, the happy couple gets along great, goes for coffee, and then lives happily ever after. That doesn't even happen in straight up dating sim/otome...and I've played them.

[midnight tea]

@Almostfaceman:  Do you believe the ability to do magic actually makes mages better human beings (or elves, or qunari) in DA?  

 

Considering that the Fade is the source of people's emotions and apparently source of their consciousness and the fact that access to magical power gives people a chance to accomplish tremendous things, like healing people even from near-death, or consciously communing with spirit world to gain insight and knowledge?

 

Yeah, it could be argued that people are better off when they have conscious connection to the Fade.

 

Also... concerning the Veil, the modern world you live in is nothing like the original world (the one that existed for 4 billion years prior to man).  Do you think if someone existed who could destroy all that has changed... that they should do it?  

 

This is just an inane argument - nobody really cares about the world from 4 billion years ago, because there's no civilization or sentient life. Heck, there wasn't even oxygen back then.

 

You should rather ask what we would do if our civilization fell, and we went back to times that resemble Middle Ages - together with their plagues, food and medicine shortage, wars and persecution and witch hunts... If you had a chance to restore the world of today, with its plentiful food, medical care, access to knowledge and democracy, and you know that it's not perfect, but sure as heck is undeniably better than the dark ages - and you know that you have only one shot at this, because if you don't do something soon the world will plunge into centuries of darkness that will effectively cost many more lives than a quick, but not painless, change... what would you do?

[Almostfaceman]

@Almostfaceman:  A shame if that's they're actual thought... I'd prefer not to be pandered to like a simpleton who can't contemplate grown up ethical and philosophical decisions in my storytelling.  

 

Also... I'm not sure you've answered my first question at all.  

 

You think being "Tranquil" is terrible... but, it's clear that a mage and a mundane on Thedas possess the same basic sapience we do in our world.  So they're clearly not like what Thedosians call Tranquil.

 

What Solas calls "Tranquil" - we actually don't know.  Everyone is making it up and defining it to suit their arguments.  But... if he means "mages" - then it's clear he thinks mages are better than non-mages.  

 

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but I'm really not making an argument "for" anything except a possible story arc for a future Bioware game. I don't recall saying anything about how I felt about being Tranquil or how it may be (or not be) equivalent to the citizens of Thedas under the influence of the Veil. We really don't have much to go on at this point except that there's something "more" and "different" to reality (particularly for elves) without the Veil. 

[Sah291]

I'm not sure if he meant that people were literally tranquil. Might have been a figure of speech, possibly.... To mean that he finds the masses ignorant, lazy, obstinate, and not terribly self aware. The fade itself is actually not really gone, and is seems people who try can still learn about it on some level. Even Dagna was able to study magic, as a Dwarf, and she feels a connection to the Titans and to the stone.

[midnight tea]

I'm not sure if he meant that people were literally tranquil. Might have been a figure of speech, possibly.... To mean that he finds the masses ignorant, lazy, obstinate, and not terribly self aware. The fade itself is actually not really gone, and is seems people who try can still learn about it on some level. Even Dagna was able to study magic, as a Dwarf, and she feels a connection to the Titans and to the stone.

 

I'd say that it's a matter of both 'no' and 'yes'.

 

No - we shouldn't take Solas comment absolutely literally. The modern people are not entirely like Tranquil, and Solas recognizes that without anyone's help.

 

However yes - I think Solas comment totally means that people have lost an important part of themselves, of that part is diminished in most living people. It's also probably why they're so small-minded, petty, obstinate and view the world in black-and-white, same way lobotomized people suffer loss of personality and decrease in overall intelligence, which has a direct impact on how they perceive themselves, others and the world.

 

This is also very possibly why he tells to (liked Inky of any race or gender) that while Inquisitors are no different from others in terms of their body, they are different in terms of their soul or mind. There ARE people whose souls simply glow brighter and that in itself brings power, even in terms of sheer will or determination (and not just PCs are like that - in a short story about Calpernia Corypheus notices that her soul is exceptionally bright as well, which is why he made her - a former slave Cory shouldn't give a rat's a** about - his lieutenant in the first place).

 

Also - I don't think Dagna studying magic is a good example. She can study magic yes, but she can never wield it or understand it like those who wield it.

 

Plus, if you listen to her describing her experiences it feels as if she's a blind person trying to describe colors. Plus, we know from Descent that dwarves apparently could cast magic (Valta does) and were much more in the past. Even Cole says at some point - "dwarves don't remember dwarves", and Kieran tells us that dwarves can't be more than they are without Titans.

[BansheeOwnage]

Yeah I was joking. But just pointing out how none of these characters (protagonist included) are exactly ideal date material, held to real life standards. They are sensationalized. Josie is probably the nicest and most well adjusted, and even she killed somebody once. But nobody really wants to watch/play a love story where nothing dramatic ever happens, the happy couple gets along great, goes for coffee, and then lives happily ever after. That doesn't even happen in straight up dating sim/otome...and I've played them.

I don't know. People who have killed people, like war veterans, get married all the time. That on its own, with no context, isn't really a reason DA companions couldn't be date material in real life. I don't see what would be so far-fetched about dating a real life Cullen, Cassandra, Josephine, Dorian, or Alistair, for instance.

 

About the bolded: Well, not nobody. I would. Or at least, I'm fairly neutral about potential drama. The only drama in Cullen's romance is his lyrium addiction (which is also present without the romance) and hardly encompasses the whole thing. They do pretty much get along great, go out for coffee to the lake, possibly get married, and live happily ever after. Well, unless the person this thread is about succeeds... Josephine actually has a lot more drama in hers from what I hear.

 

Anyway, call me boring, but I don't need drama to have an enjoyable romance

[Sah291]

@midnight tea,

Well I don't think discovery of magic happens overnight. Dagna is an exception in wanting to learn it, and it does sound like she's describing colors for the first time... But we really don't know how she might grow. She's a drawf rediscovering being a dwarf for the first time.

What I mean is, the Veil didn't really eliminate magic, or mages... magic still exists, in a limited capacity. It caused people to forget, become ignorant of the fade, and to develop fearful attitudes about magic and spirits, to the point many don't even want to learn.

It reminds me of the convo you can have with Solas about spirits. The Inquisitor can insist someone isn't a person without a physical body. Solas seems to kind of feel the opposite, that a physical body isnt all there is to a person, and people weren't "people" without their spirits. They have opposite ideas about what is real.

[Sah291]

@BansheeOwnage,
Sure, but I wasn't really thinking about war vets and the like. I mean how video games (and films) treat death much more casually than in real life, but for some reason Solas strikes a nerve.

[midnight tea]

Well I don't think discovery of magic happens overnight. Dagna is an exception in wanting to learn it, and it does sound like she's describing colors for the first time... But we really don't know how she might grow. She's a drawf rediscovering being a dwarf for the first time.

 

Question is whether she's ever capable of doing it, given that Valta herself needed a shot right in the head from the very heart of Titan itself - not to mention the fact that she stayed inside of the Titan to discover many things that even the Titan itself seem to have forgotten. So what chances does Dagna have to discover anything other than glimpses?

 

And she can be one of the very few dwarves actively studying magic, but we're not just talking about dwarves, do we? People or elves or Qunari have been studying magic for centuries, and none of them really discovered how world or people was before, did they? In fact they only seem to have grown more fearful of it or more determined to get rid of it.

 

 

What I mean is, the Veil didn't really eliminate magic, or mages... magic still exists, in a limited capacity. It caused people to forget, become ignorant of the fade, and to develop fearful attitudes about magic and spirits, to the point many don't even want to learn.

 

.... Errr... the "limited capacity" and lack of understanding and fear of the Fade appear to be one of major problems. Especially if you consider the fact that the connection of livings sentient being with spirits appears to be very crucial, if not essential for the world to actually function.

 

 

It reminds me of the convo you can have with Solas about spirits. The Inquisitor can insist someone isn't a person without a physical body. Solas seems to kind of feel the opposite, that a physical body isnt all there is to a person, and people weren't "people" without their spirits. They have opposite ideas about what is real.

 

Well... Solas hearkens from times where elves called spirits their brethren, and spoke of "those who didn't yet manifest from the Fade" and Cole tells us, enigmatically, that there were times when Solas himself "did not want a body".

 

Therefore I'd say that evidence suggests that Solas is right - to be a real person one does not need a body. The whole civilization of Elvenhan - and possibly how living beings came to be in the first place - appears to be a poof of it.

[Sah291]

@midnight tea,

Cole mentions in Trespasser that the Veil isn't real. So either it exists as some kind of physical barrier, or... It doesn't. Solas mentions the fade was once everywhere like the air. Maybe it still is.

Humans and Quanri have studied magic, but in neither culture, is magic accepted or tolerated to the same extent, especially among commoners. Even in Tevinter where they seem to believe it's in the blood, so not something for everybody as a natural and basic part of being human.

When the Inquisitor gets the orb, she, like Valta, gets a shot to the hand... A crash course in magic, and suddenly she's opening and closing portals in the fade with ease. How?

Anyway, I just think it's an interesting question to ponder. If the fade is a spiritual realm, and if the Veil is a spell or state of consciousness, then anybody could learn about it...if they were inclined...by altering their state of consciousness (as mages and Templars do with lyrium). Then that would mean the reason some can't weild magic is more because of their state of minds, beliefs, religion, philosophy, etc.