4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Aren]

Wut? Sorry, but even if elves indeed have enslaved/defeated/used the Titans, how is it evidence that Veilles world isn't at least way closer to natural/balanced state of the world than Veiled one?

In fact we KNOW (from Descent and Treapasser) that Titans in Veiled world are NOT in their natural state anymore than they were after being subjugated to Evanuris, so how is it "proof" that it's the Veiled world that is more 'natural'? If anything, it merely proves that Veiled world is even farther from its original state than it was during times of Elvenhan.
And we have no certainty whatsoever that Solas wants to restore the world to the state it was during times of Elvenhan; in fact he destroyed it once and told us that romanticizing that time period is pointless and that empires rise and fall - so the "world of the elves" could also mean something that may have even existed prior to war that resulted in Evanuris consolidating their power.

I never heared from Solas that his world was the natural state of things,he just said how he rised a barrier to diminish the influence of the fade in the world to create a cage for the false gods while the Titans were able to stop in being forced to reshape the lands in order to keep reality intact into an half dream world.
Is within the realm of possibilities that Solas made the world more close to it's ex ex state when he made it less spirit friendly with the veil.

[Alaric]

For me it is simply because he is a well-written character.
Bioware struck gold with his storyline; so in the meantime, I'm going to sit here until DA:4 comes out and we learn more about what Solas is up to.

[Secret Rare]

When you live for eternity, 70 years is a very short time frame.

What do you mean by eternity a lifespawn measured in thousands of years?Because that's not what eternity is about.

[Almostfaceman]

I never heared from Solas that his world was the natural state of things

 

This is just one example, there are others. When you're speaking with Solas in Haven, he mentions that for the elves "magic was as natural as breathing."

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Elvhenan

 

Now,  you are the one making the assertion that the elves created some artificial world for themselves. So it's on you to prove that. 

[Seraphim24]

This is just one example, there are others. When you're speaking with Solas in Haven, he mentions that for the elves "magic was as natural as breathing."

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Elvhenan

 

Now,  you are the one making the assertion that the elves created some artificial world for themselves. So it's on you to prove that. 

 

That is not remotely definitive proof of anything.

 

Ok, to be more concrete and serious, because this is just silly there shouldn't even be an argument the game tells you everything you need to know. 

 

1. Evanuris was some deranged pantheon of nutters that goes about blowing up and destroying some ancient creatures and powers

 

2. There are some ancient creatures and powers that are supposedly relevant for making sure the earth doesn't blow up, no proof is offered for this however, for all we know, they are also a group of deranged pantheon of nutters. 

 

3. Solas is part of the deranged pantheon of nutters who decides "Oh wait, no" one day and then creates a big magic space prison for Evanuris, even though he's already participated in the same acts of super destruction himself. 

 

4. Solas returns later and is like, "Well we gotta blow up the space prison and kill you and like everyone because we were all such bad people" 

 

Instead we could

 

1. Destroy Evanuris ourselves, remove the veil ourselves, through some other magic or means, or artifacts, the options are not exhausted in that sense. 

 

2. Remove the veil ourselves, same logic. 

 

3. Heal the Titans if necessary or undertake some other actions to restore what was damaged, if it's even necessary after investigation. 

 

All we have here is Sonny Corleone (Solas) after undertaking several hit jobs going "I'm the only one who can stop the Mafia from being more Mafia" and it's like really? Because like I could of sworn I played a bunch of games where you don't need the bad guy to get rid of the other bad guys and girls. 

 

Also he's not well-written whatever that means at all he's an absolutely idiotic character, he has such an astonishing pure lack of intellect and ability I would not be shocked if he were incapable of eating and drinking without his mom (whoever she may be) helping him step by step. 

[Seraphim24]

Solas's chief strategy is to kind of go as far back as possible into the past, and hope no one can recognize him there, or follow him back and just kind of frankly acknowledge that just because a bunch of stuff happened a long time ago doesn't make it any more or less sacred. 

 

Even if that were Solas's point, it doesn't excuse his role in the situation. 

[CardButton]

Solas's chief strategy is to kind of go as far back as possible into the past, and hope no one can recognize him there, or follow him back and just kind of frankly acknowledge that just because a bunch of stuff happened a long time ago doesn't make it any more or less sacred. 

 

Even if that were Solas's point, it doesn't excuse his role in the situation. 

No, I doubt its time travel.  Something tells me its not a matter of reversing what has already occurred, but preserving and fostering what is left.  Abelas and his little band of Elvhen have shown that there "species" isn't quite as extinct as once believed, there is therefore no way of guaranteeing just how many bastions or refuges remain of their people.  I think what Solas wants to "bring back" is not the world of the Ancient Elvhen Empire (which to be fair he truly hated that society), but rather the environment in which his species once thrived.  Hence the removal of the Veil and return of the Fade.  My assumption is that he believes that the return of the Full Force of the Fade onto Modern Thedas will have a similar impact to what the removal of the Fade by the Veil had on his world.  Sort of ... forcing a population specialized in living in a specific environment to all of a sudden live in a very different environment than the one they're used to.  Some may adapt, most will die out.

Or at least that's my hope for his character arc and intention.  The dude feels an enormous amount of shame for his past actions involving the Veil, having him face the dilemma of breaking modern Thedas in a last ditch attempt to save what is left of the Ancient Elvhen population, or abstain and sentence the remainder of his people to extinction ... makes him interesting, even if he is still genocidal. 

 

Whenever I think about Solas' character I can't help but also think of a Quote from Uncle Iroh in Avatar:TLA.  "Prince Zuko, pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.  True humility is the only antidote for shame."  Solas' name does mean Pride after all.  

[Abyss108]

What do you mean by eternity a lifespawn measured in thousands of years?Because that's not what eternity is about.

 

 

Elves didn't have a lifespan of thousands of years, they were immortal.

[Aliceeverafter]

 

 

What does Solas do in The DLC's that some people here like or maybe even love him so much. Because i know him only from my Inquisition game and i cannot imagine that someone gets truly romantic feelings for him. It's not that i do not like him for me it is in between i find him a bit a mister know it all and he is a little bit to elfy for me. There is nothing wrong with that ( he is an elf ). But i do like his voice and his stories when he tells about them but to really like ( love ) him then no not me.

 

And i would also like to know why some of you guys/girls out there here on this forum who do not like ( love ) Solas so much ( or not at all ) to also give their meaning of why they do not like him maybe something like me being neutral. Or maybe you don't like Solas at all and that you maybe even hate him the opposite of love. 

  

You would probably say that i should buy the DLC's and find out myself i am planning to. But i have to wait a little longer so in the meantime you might tell me a little bit why you like ( love ) him so much or not.

 

Thoughts ? 

gotta love him for his mind. intelligent = sexy

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Elves didn't have a lifespan of thousands of years, they were immortal.

Well, they weren't since they could still be killed. They were ageless. 

[Patricia08]

gotta love him for his mind. intelligent = sexy

 

Not always though  . 

[Abyss108]

Well, they weren't since they could still be killed. They were ageless. 

 

 

That's what I meant. It's not the technical definition, but immortal is often used to mean unaging, even if the being can be killed by other means.

 

Though I'm curious if the ancient Elves could actually be killed... I can't recall any of the top of my head. Mythal obviously wasn't actually "killed"...

[Almostfaceman]

That is not remotely definitive proof of anything.

 

Ok, to be more concrete and serious, because this is just silly there shouldn't even be an argument the game tells you everything you need to know. 

 

1. Evanuris was some deranged pantheon of nutters that goes about blowing up and destroying some ancient creatures and powers

 

2. There are some ancient creatures and powers that are supposedly relevant for making sure the earth doesn't blow up, no proof is offered for this however, for all we know, they are also a group of deranged pantheon of nutters. 

 

3. Solas is part of the deranged pantheon of nutters who decides "Oh wait, no" one day and then creates a big magic space prison for Evanuris, even though he's already participated in the same acts of super destruction himself. 

 

4. Solas returns later and is like, "Well we gotta blow up the space prison and kill you and like everyone because we were all such bad people" 

 

Instead we could

 

1. Destroy Evanuris ourselves, remove the veil ourselves, through some other magic or means, or artifacts, the options are not exhausted in that sense. 

 

2. Remove the veil ourselves, same logic. 

 

3. Heal the Titans if necessary or undertake some other actions to restore what was damaged, if it's even necessary after investigation. 

 

All we have here is Sonny Corleone (Solas) after undertaking several hit jobs going "I'm the only one who can stop the Mafia from being more Mafia" and it's like really? Because like I could of sworn I played a bunch of games where you don't need the bad guy to get rid of the other bad guys and girls. 

 

Also he's not well-written whatever that means at all he's an absolutely idiotic character, he has such an astonishing pure lack of intellect and ability I would not be shocked if he were incapable of eating and drinking without his mom (whoever she may be) helping him step by step. 

 

Well this was an uninteresting tangent that had nothing to do with what I was talking about. But whatever. 

 

For anybody trying to make the case that the artificial magical construct (the Veil) is interfering with another artificial magical construct, you've got to show us data from the game that indicates that there was an artificial magical construct in place before the Veil. Otherwise you're building an argument from your head canon. 

 

As it stands from evidence in the game, the elves built their world based on its natural laws of magic and that's why their world crashed when the Veil went up. The Veil reduced the flow of magic into the world from the Fade and it restricted the sentient beings conscious connection to the Fade. 

[Ghost Gal]

Well this was an uninteresting tangent that had nothing to do with what I was talking about. But whatever. 

 

For anybody trying to make the case that the artificial magical construct (the Veil) is interfering with another artificial magical construct, you've got to show us data from the game that indicates that there was an artificial magical construct in place before the Veil. Otherwise you're building an argument from your head canon. 

 

As it stands from evidence in the game, the elves built their world based on its natural laws of magic and that's why their world crashed when the Veil went up. The Veil reduced the flow of magic into the world from the Fade and it restricted the sentient beings conscious connection to the Fade. 

 

Seriously. Like Solas said, magic was just another state of nature, like the wind in the trees or the water in rivers. Ancient elves learned to use the natural state of magic to build their civilizations, just as modern Thedosians use water (rain, rivers, etc) to grow their crops, feed their armies and cities, travel by ship (thus bring in trade), etc. He comments on how a world of magic has its uses as well as its dangers, like how a rushing current can power a watermill (used to grind flour for food) just as it can drown a child.

 

I find it funny how often people say they pity the elves for assuming the world would never change and not anticipating that magic could disappear; but since magic was just another part of their natural world, could you blame them? How could they anticipate the magic just going away one day, any more than they could anticipate most of the world's water disappearing one day, or the sun just never rising one morning?

 

Imagine if tomorrow in Thedas 99% of the water of the world receded for seemingly no reason, so there were no more oceans, rivers, streams, or rain; and the only water left in the world was a few pockets of underground wells like in the Arabian Desert or the world of Mad Max. Suddenly these medieval civilizations built upon sedentary farming and sea travel, with massive amounts of crops to feed massive populations and ship travel to bring in lucrative trade, would collapse. And imagine if Qunari, who have already adapted to life in the desert (Seheron and Par Vollen) and who can go up to 20-30 days without water whereas humans die within a few days without water (the same way ancient humans were less dependent on magic than elves), suddenly decided this was their continent now and humans were too weakened by the sudden lack of water everywhere to properly fight them off? Would you then smugly say that humans should have anticipated that almost all the world's water would suddenly disappear one day, and they should have adjusted their society for such a time that they no longer had the abundance of water they'd always relied on?

 

NO! You wouldn't. Magic was just a part of the world back then, and the Veil an artificial way to remove what had always been. You can't expect the ancient elves to anticipate that there would eventually be a world without magic any more than you can expect modern Thedas humans to anticipate a world without water or sunlight, because back then magic was just as much a part of the natural world as wind, rivers, and sunlight in Thedas today.

[Jewlie Ghoulie]

I connect to the Solas romance on a personal level. Obviously my ex/the person I'm convinced was 'the one' isn't an old "elven god"(I use this loosely with Solas foaming at he mouth I'm sure) but I do know what it is to love someone so much but not be able to be with them. I'm not bitter about it, it just is. And for me, that made Solas romance the most impacting and special for me.

[Secret Rare]

That's what I meant. It's not the technical definition, but immortal is often used to mean unaging, even if the being can be killed by other means.

 

Though I'm curious if the ancient Elves could actually be killed... I can't recall any of the top of my head. Mythal obviously wasn't actually "killed"...

That doesn't equate to eternity but to a prolonged youth sustained by the fade and they can be killed Solas said that is possible.

Some ancient elves(those who were really ancient) had problems with their own prolonged lifespan to the point where they needed to enter Uthenara to save themselves from madness and boredom which mean that their mind is not suited to sustain an eternal life.

[Secret Rare]

Seriously. Like Solas said, magic was just another state of nature, like the wind in the trees or the water in rivers. Ancient elves learned to use the natural state of magic to build their civilizations, just as modern Thedosians use water (rain, rivers, etc) to grow their crops, feed their armies and cities, travel by ship (thus bring in trade), etc. He comments on how a world of magic has its uses as well as its dangers, like how a rushing current can power a watermill (used to grind flour for food) just as it can drown a child.

 

I find it funny how often people say they pity the elves for assuming the world would never change and not anticipating that magic could disappear; but since magic was just another part of their natural world, could you blame them? How could they anticipate the magic just going away one day, any more than they could anticipate most of the world's water disappearing one day, or the sun just never rising one morning?

 

Imagine if tomorrow in Thedas 99% of the water of the world receded for seemingly no reason, so there were no more oceans, rivers, streams, or rain; and the only water left in the world was a few pockets of underground wells like in the Arabian Desert or the world of Mad Max. Suddenly these medieval civilizations built upon sedentary farming and sea travel, with massive amounts of crops to feed massive populations and ship travel to bring in lucrative trade, would collapse. And imagine if Qunari, who have already adapted to life in the desert (Seheron and Par Vollen) and who can go up to 20-30 days without water whereas humans die within a few days without water (the same way ancient humans were less dependent on magic than elves), suddenly decided this was their continent now and humans were too weakened by the sudden lack of water everywhere to properly fight them off? Would you then smugly say that humans should have anticipated that almost all the world's water would suddenly disappear one day, and they should have adjusted their society for such a time that they no longer had the abundance of water they'd always relied on?

 

NO! You wouldn't. Magic was just a part of the world back then, and the Veil an artificial way to remove what had always been. You can't expect the ancient elves to anticipate that there would eventually be a world without magic any more than you can expect modern Thedas humans to anticipate a world without water or sunlight, because back then magic was just as much a part of the natural world as wind, rivers, and sunlight in Thedas today.

In DAO, the magical complexity present doesn't make the notion of magic is just wishful thinking and the natural breath  + fade energy

The whole thing seem to be elves specific since Dwarves,Qunari,animals and humans aren't dependant on the fade the same way the elves are,so magic cannot be like water which is universally required to survive from any life form. 

When you are introduced to the Fade and to magic and to spirits... it is completely true that you CAN wishful think something.

Valor creates imaginary swords that are only real if you believe they are.  They don't "cut" anything... because there's nothing to actually cut in the Fade.  They "cut" things, because you believe they cut things.

Then... they realized that this design was too complex and scrapped it for the Magic/Fade magic is breathing for Dummies  that comes in DA:2 and DA:I.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's what I meant. It's not the technical definition, but immortal is often used to mean unaging, even if the being can be killed by other means.

 

Though I'm curious if the ancient Elves could actually be killed... I can't recall any of the top of my head. Mythal obviously wasn't actually "killed"...

I know, just pointing out that technically there is a difference and Dragon Age has noted that. Xenon is immortal, but because he isn't ageless his body kept aging until now he akin to a mummy. And then there are ageless beings like Ancient Elves, Fade entities, and Darkspawn. 

 

Felassan comes to mind for me. He was an Ancient Elf and yet was murdered by Solas. Abelas also mentions how the Sentinel's numbers keep dwindling as members die each time they are awoken to defend the Temple of Mythal. 

[Seraphim24]

Seriously. Like Solas said, magic was just another state of nature, like the wind in the trees or the water in rivers. Ancient elves learned to use the natural state of magic to build their civilizations, just as modern Thedosians use water (rain, rivers, etc) to grow their crops, feed their armies and cities, travel by ship (thus bring in trade), etc. He comments on how a world of magic has its uses as well as its dangers, like how a rushing current can power a watermill (used to grind flour for food) just as it can drown a child.

 

I find it funny how often people say they pity the elves for assuming the world would never change and not anticipating that magic could disappear; but since magic was just another part of their natural world, could you blame them? How could they anticipate the magic just going away one day, any more than they could anticipate most of the world's water disappearing one day, or the sun just never rising one morning?

 

Imagine if tomorrow in Thedas 99% of the water of the world receded for seemingly no reason, so there were no more oceans, rivers, streams, or rain; and the only water left in the world was a few pockets of underground wells like in the Arabian Desert or the world of Mad Max. Suddenly these medieval civilizations built upon sedentary farming and sea travel, with massive amounts of crops to feed massive populations and ship travel to bring in lucrative trade, would collapse. And imagine if Qunari, who have already adapted to life in the desert (Seheron and Par Vollen) and who can go up to 20-30 days without water whereas humans die within a few days without water (the same way ancient humans were less dependent on magic than elves), suddenly decided this was their continent now and humans were too weakened by the sudden lack of water everywhere to properly fight them off? Would you then smugly say that humans should have anticipated that almost all the world's water would suddenly disappear one day, and they should have adjusted their society for such a time that they no longer had the abundance of water they'd always relied on?

 

NO! You wouldn't. Magic was just a part of the world back then, and the Veil an artificial way to remove what had always been. You can't expect the ancient elves to anticipate that there would eventually be a world without magic any more than you can expect modern Thedas humans to anticipate a world without water or sunlight, because back then magic was just as much a part of the natural world as wind, rivers, and sunlight in Thedas today.

 

Magic is gone/restricted because of the actions of a few Ancient Elves. It's not "seemingly no reason."

 

As a side note I can't help but note that Solas's talk of a superior people is odd when a lot of Elves are basically like Fish to the Human's... Human. A lot of them are highly dependent, fragile, creatures that need this "magic" which has not been ruled out entirely derived from other sources like candy. Even Tevinter was more capable, not using magic exclusively but rather in conjunction with typical rules of organization. 

[BansheeOwnage]

It's better than tearing down the Veil and destroying everything and The Evanuris would unleash their anger and kill Solas eventually and it would all be for absolutely nothing whatsoever. I like to do the alternative to start over and to be with his lover so he could settle down.

You project yourself onto other characters too much. Great, you think something different than Solas. Good job. That's not really helpful in a discussion about what Solas would do though. Solas doesn't think it's better, so you're at an impasse.

 

What is derived from imagination is your own claim that the veiless world is the natural state of things  solely based on extrapolations made of Saarebas dialogues that are obviously  proof of anything

Alright, if you aren't convinced by ingame evidence, try thinking about this from a meta/game development/writing perspective. That the world has not always had the veil, and that it was an artificial construct that changed the natural state of the world was the huge reveal of the DLC. It makes no sense from a meta/game dev/writing perspective to make a huge twist like that, only to later reveal that it wasn't a twist, and that really it is the natural state of the world. Seriously.

 

 

I may be willing to agree that the Titan was a bit traumatized when it woke up, but i'm not sure it was the fade that caused that. The only thing we know for certain was that it was the breach that woke it up from its dormancy, not that the breach was the cause for its distress.

Considering the Titans have been dormant since the veil, with the exception of times when the veil has been sundered, that would imply to me that they either can't be conscious or choose to hibernate when without a connection to the fade, which would definitely imply that the veil-less world is natural for them, too.

[BansheeOwnage]

I know, just pointing out that technically there is a difference and Dragon Age has noted that. Xenon is immortal, but because he isn't ageless his body kept aging until now he akin to a mummy. And then there are ageless beings like Ancient Elves, Fade entities, and Darkspawn. 

 

Felassan comes to mind for me. He was an Ancient Elf and yet was murdered by Solas. Abelas also mentions how the Sentinel's numbers keep dwindling as members die each time they are awoken to defend the Temple of Mythal. 

I don't know what the exact written definitions are, but I use "immortal" to mean that someone will not die unless killed (so I suppose they may or may not be unaging) and "invulnerable" to indicate that someone cannot be killed from outside forces. They may or may not overlap.

 

Anyway, for the sake of discussion, since all of the elves you mentioned died post-veil, it may be that they wouldn't have "died" pre-veil, since their spirits may linger like Mythal, but their connection to the fade post-veil may not be strong enough for that to happen. Not that I necessarily think that, but it's a thought.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

You project yourself onto other characters too much. Great, you think something different than Solas. Good job. That's not really helpful in a discussion about what Solas would do though. Solas doesn't think it's better, so you're at an impasse.

I was only offering a peaceful solution what he should've done by gathering the elves and leave Thedas for good. He should realize that his plan would be catastrophic and the most idiotic plan of action to tear down the Veil. He should stop and he should blame himself for causing all this bullshit upon his people, and he should make amends for what his people have to go through. The best he could do is to leave Thedas and start all over again on another world. (If you still holding a grudge because of our last debate don't. It just only my own opinions and beliefs don't need to get all worked up.)

[Shechinah]

What world would that be?

[Xerrai]

I was only offering a peaceful solution what he should've done by gathering the elves and leave Thedas for good. He should realize that his plan would be catastrophic and the most idiotic plan of action to tear down the Veil. He should stop and he should blame himself for causing all this bullshit upon his people, and he should make amends for what his people have to go through. The best he could do is to leave Thedas and start all over again on another world. (If you still holding a grudge because of our last debate don't. It just only my own opinions and beliefs don't need to get all worked up.)

Another world that likely cannot or will not support them all?

Another, yet undiscovered location in Thedas I may understand--but another world? It's already been pretty well established that dimensions like the crossroads are unstable. It has also been stated areas like the Vir Dirthara actually do not produce anything of substance because it is merely all ideas being shaped by our perceptions (more like the fade, in that sense). Furthermore, apart from a few eluvians that lead to "in between" areas, there is no proof that eluvians lead to any other real (as in, not created by the elves) dimension that is not connected to Thedas. 

 

Unless evidence comes up where it can be proven that elves can live such dimensions without any contact at all with Thedas, moving the elves to another dimension that may not even support them would be nothing short of madness. Might very well lead to their extinction. It's foolish unless there is evidence that they can actually live through the ordeal.

 

But from what we can tell, it is Morrigan has said "one cannot live in-between forever".

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Another world that likely cannot or will not support them all?
Another, yet undiscovered location in Thedas I may understand--but another world? It's already been pretty well established that dimensions like the crossroads are unstable. It has also been stated areas like the Vir Dirthara actually do not produce anything of substance because it is merely all ideas being shaped by our perceptions (more like the fade, in that sense). Furthermore, apart from a few eluvians that lead to "in between" areas, there is no proof that eluvians lead to any other real (as in, not created by the elves) dimension that is not connected to Thedas. 
 
Unless evidence comes up where it can be proven that elves can live such dimensions without any contact at all with Thedas, moving the elves to another dimension that may not even support them would be nothing short of madness. Might very well lead to their extinction. It's foolish unless there is evidence that they can actually live through the ordeal.
 
But from what we can tell, it is Morrigan has said "one cannot live in-between forever".

But that's only her it doesn't apply to everybody else, she chose to stay if she want to leave Thedas for good she would have but she chose not to. And the eluvians lead to many places and Solas can find one like Morrigan mentioned, and the elves deserve to be free from all the chaos that has been inflicting pain for so long.