4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerrai]

But that's only her it doesn't apply to everybody else, she chose to stay if she want to leave Thedas for good she would have but she chose not to. And the eluvians lead to many places and Solas can find one like Morrigan mentioned, and the elves deserve to be free from all the chaos that has been inflicting pain for so long.

My skepticism is not so much born of doubt they would/could leave Thedas. It's just that I am doubtful if they could leave Thedas and still live on for generations to come.

 

From the idea-forming Vir Dirthara to the crumbling crossraods to the briefly mentioned "in-between" places--I have yet to see evidence that any of these places could actually sustain the elves.

 

Crops to feed them, a ground that would never falter, a dimension that would never crumble. These are but a few things that I doubt any dimension other than Thedas can provide. The most they seem capable of producing on their own is basically fancy fade illusions--just idea given form.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

My skepticism is not so much born of doubt they would/could leave Thedas. It's just that I am doubtful if they could leave Thedas and still live on for generations to come.
 
From the idea-forming Vir Dirthara to the crumbling crossraods to the briefly mentioned "in-between" places--I have yet to see evidence that any of these places could actually sustain the elves.
 
Crops to feed them, a ground that would never falter, a dimension that would never crumble. These are but a few things that I doubt any dimension other than Thedas can provide. The most they seem capable of producing on their own is basically fancy fade illusions--just idea given form.

You never know he could find a place for suitable for sustaining life like Thedas, it could be possible because the Ancient Elves discovered many places by traveling through the eluvians and it would be possible to find a new home.

[Secret Rare]

Considering the Titans have been dormant since the veil, with the exception of times when the veil has been sundered, that would imply to me that they either can't be conscious or choose to hibernate when without a connection to the fade, which would definitely imply that the veil-less world is natural for them, too.

A Titan job is to shape reality, with the veil there is no need to do that anymore since the influence of the fade diminished,their hibernation is not a forced state the veil is a benefit for them.
Natural state is by definition an empty word because the world can sustain multiple state of being and they are all equally valid.

[BansheeOwnage]

I was only offering a peaceful solution what he should've done by gathering the elves and leave Thedas for good. He should realize that his plan would be catastrophic and the most idiotic plan of action to tear down the Veil. He should stop and he should blame himself for causing all this bullshit upon his people, and he should make amends for what his people have to go through. The best he could do is to leave Thedas and start all over again on another world. (If you still holding a grudge because of our last debate don't. It just only my own opinions and beliefs don't need to get all worked up.)

Once again, that's not a solution (that is, an alternative to Solas' current plan), because it doesn't accomplish what Solas wants to accomplish. He wants to restore the world of the elves, not just the elvhen or the modern elves. The world. That one where there is no veil, where everyone was immortal, where spirits lived among mortals non-spirits and where magic was as natural as breathing. None of that can be accomplished by simply moving "somewhere else" with some elves, so it's hardly a viable alternative for Solas to consider.

 

He has realized that his plan will be catastrophic, and he does indeed blame himself for the damage he's caused. Heck, that's a big part of his motivation to "set things right" by lifting the veil.

 

I'm not holding a grudge, just responding to you as you post.

[BansheeOwnage]

You never know he could find a place for suitable for sustaining life like Thedas, it could be possible because the Ancient Elves discovered many places by traveling through the eluvians and it would be possible to find a new home.

Technically, the elves didn't discover anywhere new with the eluvians, since they need to go somewhere first to put them there

 

A Titan job is to shape reality, with the veil there is no need to do that anymore since the influence of the fade diminished,their hibernation is not a forced state the veil is a benefit for them.
Natural state is by definition an empty word because the world can sustain multiple state of being and they are all equally valid.

That's some nice speculation, but don't pretend it's more at the moment. And I fail to see how being in what is effectively a coma is a benefit to them, but that's just me.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Once again, that's not a solution (that is, an alternative to Solas' current plan), because it doesn't accomplish what Solas wants to accomplish. He wants to restore the world of the elves, not just the elvhen or the modern elves. The world. That one where there is no veil, where everyone was immortal, where spirits lived among mortals non-spirits and where magic was as natural as breathing. None of that can be accomplished by simply moving "somewhere else" with some elves, so it's hardly a viable alternative for Solas to consider.

He has realized that his plan will be catastrophic, and he does indeed blame himself for the damage he's caused. Heck, that's a big part of his motivation to "set things right" by lifting the veil.

I'm not holding a grudge, just responding to you as you post.

It doesn't make any sense. Why would he reclaim Thedas by killing everyone and the gods who are hellbent in revenge against Solas? What if Solas is killed by them and they rule with their iron fist all over again? He should've known his plan is very flawed and bloodshed is not the answer, and leaving is the only option to start over and rebuild a better future for Elves.

[Seraphim24]

The world. That one where there is no veil, where everyone was immortal, where spirits lived among mortals non-spirits and where magic was as natural as breathing. None of that can be accomplished by simply moving "somewhere else" with some elves, so it's hardly a viable alternative for Solas to consider.

 

CITATION NEEDED

[Seraphim24]

You can't use the absence of knowledge about the super deep past to promote Solas's vision over any other, it's just that simple. 

 

Besides, that's just one person's version of events, history is always filled with competing takes, it's up to the player to discern which to follow not the writers or the fans. 

[Secret Rare]

Technically, the elves didn't discover anywhere new with the eluvians, since they need to go somewhere first to put them there

 

That's some nice speculation, but don't pretend it's more at the moment. And I fail to see how being in what is effectively a coma is a benefit to them, but that's just me.

This is what i understood from  small hints 

Titans can wake up and cause earthquakes whenever they want but they do not act without reason,since the fade is already handled by the veil the titans are not needed to fix reality anymore,only the one of the descent needed to act a bit for the breach.

Is not a wonder that Solas stopped the Evanuris from killing all the titans and even Mythal relaized how stupid she was in killing them since thye are pretty much the beings who maintain intact the physical world.

 

[Seraphim24]

Like according to some, Greece was the founder of democracy and one of the greatest civilizations ever that birthed all the great ideals we have today. 

 

Those people tend to leave out that they also had bred like a colony of poor people to be imprisoned and on hand for human sacrifice whenever deemed necessary. 

 

The truth is that the ancient Greeks were about as Aztec as the Aztec.

 

So, I use the absence of information to reject his version, and reject waiting, which is just as valid as the tacit acceptance that is mandatory with "waiting to see." 

 

If he were to then reject me for that in the course of the game then we would obviously fight, I would win, and the consequences would be whatever the consequences would be.

[CardButton]

It doesn't make any sense. Why would he reclaim Thedas by killing everyone and the gods who are hellbent in revenge against Solas? What if Solas is killed by them and they rule with their iron fist all over again? He should've known his plan is very flawed and bloodshed is not the answer, and leaving is the only option to start over and rebuild a better future for Elves.

What bloodshed do you speak of?  More than likely Solas simply assumes that the collateral damage to modern Thedas due to the Fade returning will be similar to the collateral damage that occurred when he put in place the Veil in the first place.  He's not going to go out and murder everyone, its that he's going to plunge an entire population into an environment in which they weren't built to survive (just as he did when he put up the Veil).  Some may adapt to their new surroundings eventually, most will die out ... but the damage done will be irreversible.  

Also I'm more or less certain by this point that Abelas was being literal when he said "You are not my people" to an Elf Inquisitor.  I really don't think he was simply saying it to be mean or dickish, he gains absolutely nothing from insulting a modern elf in such a manner.  While the Ancient Elvhen look a lot like Modern Elves there is probably something far beyond simple culture that fundamentally differentiates the two groups.  It may be better to consider the Modern Elves and the Ancient Elvhen different sub-species of Elf, no matter what they look like on the outside.  

 

Solas' intent (I truly hope for his character arc) is to save what remains of his people and give them a world they can thrive in, rather than saving any of the Modern Elves.  If he downright says to a Lavellan LI that he has no intention of saving her (the single Inquisitor he can care most for), than I really doubt he has any intention to saving any of the Modern Elves.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

What bloodshed do you speak of? More than likely Solas simply assumes that the collateral damage to modern Thedas due to the Fade returning will be similar to the collateral damage that occurred when he put in place the Veil in the first place. He's not going to go out and murder everyone, its that he's going to plunge an entire population into an environment in which they weren't built to survive (just as he did when he put up the Veil). Some may adapt to their new surroundings eventually, most will die out ... but the damage done will be irreversible.

Also I'm more or less certain by this point that Abelas was being literal when he said "You are not my people" to an Elf Inquisitor. I really don't think he was simply saying it to be mean or dickish, he gains absolutely nothing from insulting a modern elf in such a manner. While the Ancient Elvhen look a lot like Modern Elves there is probably something far beyond simple culture that fundamentally differentiates the two groups. It may be better to consider the Modern Elves and the Ancient Elvhen different sub-species of Elf, no matter what they look like on the outside.

Solas' intent (I truly hope for his character arc) is to save what remains of his people and give them a world they can thrive in, rather than saving any of the Modern Elves. If he downright says to a Lavellan LI that he has no intention of saving her (the single Inquisitor he can care most for), than I really doubt he has any intention to saving any of the Modern Elves.

The Ancient ones are the biggest fools if they turn their back on their own people, and they brought this downfall on themselves into get the elves to become the oppressed and powerless. They started all this and have the nerve to turn on your own kind and not helping then when they needed their help the most. It's just a way of not accepting responsibility by projecting the elves who are oppressed by humans and not take the blame onto themselves that it was them who caused all of this chaos upon themselves in the first place. The Ancient Elves and Solas are irresponsible yet sadly idiotic bunch.

[Lady Artifice]

It doesn't make any sense. Why would he reclaim Thedas by killing everyone and the gods who are hellbent in revenge against Solas? What if Solas is killed by them and they rule with their iron fist all over again? He should've known his plan is very flawed and bloodshed is not the answer, and leaving is the only option to start over and rebuild a better future for Elves.

 

Solas is written as a villain, an antagonistic force within the story universe. His plan is supposed to be bad. If we don't allow any character to do unreasonable things, then the story has no conflict, and we have no story.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Solas is written as a villain, an antagonistic force within the story universe. His plan is supposed to be bad. If we don't allow any character to do unreasonable things, then the story has no conflict, and we have no story.

I knew you couldn't resist me!!! My magnetism is strong!

[DreamerM]

...I think my Player Characters just have a terrible history of falling head over heals for the worst possible person at the worst possible moment.

My Amell, legitimately, crushed on Jowen. They'd joined the circle at the same time, he was the first friend she'd ever had, and she just assumed that even though they weren't yet, they'd just end up together eventually. What happened.... didn't end well.

Then she loved Alistair with gusto, and didn't know it was even possible to be so happy... but then she spared Loghain, believing in second chances, and he declaired himself Anora's betrothed and walked right out. He didn't even say goodbye.

So she fell in with Liliana, the one person who always lifted her spirits... And then died fighting the arch-demon, turning that gentle chantry sister into a bloody-minded operator. Well done, Amell. Saddest thing? Her last thoughts were for Alistair. She couldn't get ANYTHING right. They built a statue of her, and she died feeling like a f-up. Maybe that's always how it goes.

And Hawke...well Hawke loved Anders, and he killed hundreds of people, and she stuck a knife in him. No happily ever afters there....

.... So, I guess, my Inquisitor accidentally shacking up with a god of death hellbent on destroying the world.... Yeah. It just seems to fit.

.... I don't even plan for it to go this way. It just seems to happen. NONE of my PCs have gotten that "happily ever after" yet...

DA: FML

[Almostfaceman]

CITATION NEEDED

 

If you played the game or Trespasser, you wouldn't be asking for any citations. You would just have to pay attention instead of texting between fights. 

 

Inq: You were a hero, Solas. 

 

Solas: I sought to set my people free from slavery to would-be gods. I broke the chains of all who wished to join me. The false gods called me Fen'Harel, and when they finally went too far, I formed the Veil and banished them forever. Thus I freed the elven people and, in so doing, destroyed their world. 

 

 

And more citation about the nature of the Fade without the Veil:

 

https://youtu.be/CCcwk0WCzow?t=1m19s

[Patricia08]

For me it is simply because he is a well-written character.
Bioware struck gold with his storyline; so in the meantime, I'm going to sit here until DA:4 comes out and we learn more about what Solas is up to.

 

I would not recommend it waiting for DA 4 to come out but if you do take my advise ( or not that is entirely up to you ) buy a lot of food and i mean a lot and also a lot of drinks because you have to sit there for maybe 2 years  .

[Medhia_Nox]

Is Solas' dialogue still being touted as historical fact about the nature of Thedas? 

 

Minfilia151:  You'll get nowhere with these people.  They're convinced Solas' dialogue is infallible, factual exposition setting the scene of ancient Pre-Veil Thedas.  

 

It's like if everyone believed Herodotus' accounts of the ancient world without question - he DID live there, and he even wrote them as he experienced them - which actually lends more credence to his account.  Instead of the 3000 year old infallible, unbiased, memory of an ancient elf.

[nightscrawl]

Is Solas' dialogue still being touted as historical fact about the nature of Thedas? 

 

Minfilia151:  You'll get nowhere with these people.  They're convinced Solas' dialogue is infallible, factual exposition setting the scene of ancient Pre-Veil Thedas.  

 

It's like if everyone believed Herodotus' accounts of the ancient world without question - he DID live there, and he even wrote them as he experienced them - which actually lends more credence to his account.  Instead of the 3000 year old infallible, unbiased, memory of an ancient elf.

 

Well it's not like he was walking around for thousands of years with all of that time to chip away at his memory. Didn't he go into Uthenera and sleep for most of it? Or does that not count since he was supposedly observant in the Fade? I'm not entirely sure on that. It just seems to me that a person who wakes up from a 20 year coma feels as if 20 years ago were yesterday, because for them it actually was.

[Lezio]

Well it's not like he was walking around for thousands of years with all of that time to chip away at his memory. Didn't he go into Uthenera and sleep for most of it? Or does that not count since he was supposedly observant in the Fade? I'm not entirely sure on that. It just seems to me that a person who wakes up from a 20 year coma feels as if 20 years ago were yesterday, because for them it actually was.

 

I think Solas' memory is, in more one ways than one, very much biased precisely because of the shock of waking up "tomorrow-but-not-really". His greatest fear, dying along(/being alone), is a direct byproduct of the situation he found himself in.

 

Hell, the way he casually dismisses the very real threat the Evanuris represent, with a "i can take them because my plans always work", talks for itself. Just as you said, from his perspective he had jsut taken them down ..... and yet the first thing he set out to do, even powerless and lacking any knowledge of the new world, as we can see from the Cory screwup, was tearing down the Veil and, in doing so, releasing them. That's just....

 

All of this just strengthens my belief that Solas' words can not be taken as fact, that he doesn't actually know what the hell he's doing and that he has a serious issue dealing with his own emotions (this can be argued, but he did destroy his people's world only after the Evanuris dealt him a personal blow[by killing Mythal])

[midnight tea]

Solas is written as a villain, an antagonistic force within the story universe. His plan is supposed to be bad. If we don't allow any character to do unreasonable things, then the story has no conflict, and we have no story.

 

Conflict =/= bad character does bad things.

 

"Conflict" doesn't have to mean something as simplistic as "doing bad or unreasonable things" - it means that characters are in some sort of dilemma, or something that causes them emotional turmoil. From personal growth, to ways to overcome a problem (antagonist, disaster, illness, life issues, love life... the choices are endless) and - yes - that counts being put in an impossible situation, which we apparently have here. At the end of DAI and very possibly DA4 a large art of the story will be about a moral conflict in which Solas himself is in, as much as Inky/new PC are.

[midnight tea]

I think Solas' memory is, in more one ways than one, very much biased precisely because of the shock of waking up "tomorrow-but-not-really". His greatest fear, dying along(/being alone), is a direct byproduct of the situation he found himself in.

 

Hell, the way he casually dismisses the very real threat the Evanuris represent, with a "i can take them because my plans always work", talks for itself. Just as you said, from his perspective he had jsut taken them down ..... and yet the first thing he set out to do, even powerless and lacking any knowledge of the new world, as we can see from the Cory screwup, was tearing down the Veil and, in doing so, releasing them. That's just....

 

The heck are you talking about?

[Lady Artifice]

Conflict =/= bad character does bad things.

 

 

I don't think I implied that it did. 

 

 

 

"Conflict" doesn't have to mean something as simplistic as "doing bad or unreasonable things" - it means that characters are in some sort of dilemma, or something that causes them emotional turmoil. From personal growth, to ways to overcome a problem (antagonist, disaster, illness, life issues, love life... the choices are endless) and - yes - that counts being put in an impossible situation, which we apparently have here. At the end of DAI and very possibly DA4 a large art of the story will be about a moral conflict in which Solas himself is in, as much as Inky/new PC are.

 

 

I acknowledge all of this to be true, though I've dedicated too massive a percentage of my life to studying storytelling to feign any warmth toward the educational tone it's communicated with. 

 

edit: The poster I was initially responding to has a tendency to equate a well written character with one that he approves of morally. It is this mindset I'm arguing against, not claiming that there is only one possible sort of conflict in writing.

[German Soldier]

 

Alright, if you aren't convinced by ingame evidence, try thinking about this from a meta/game development/writing perspective. That the world has not always had the veil, and that it was an artificial construct that changed the natural state of the world was the huge reveal of the DLC. It makes no sense from a meta/game dev/writing perspective to make a huge twist like that, only to later reveal that it wasn't a twist, and that really it is the natural state of the world. Seriously.

 

What do you mean by natural state of the world?

Planets do not possess any natural state but just conditions that tend to change in time  for natural or artificial causes.

Everything flows and nothing abides. Everything gives way and nothing stays fixed.

The actual world is stable with the veil and isn't any more fake than the semi-world of dream Solas and the elves of Arlathan lived in.

[German Soldier]

Is Solas' dialogue still being touted as historical fact about the nature of Thedas? 

 

 

Solas cannot know how the planet that feature Thedas work or how it was before he was even born,he just created the veil to alter a preexisting condition(which whom he doesn't even know the geological and planetary evolution) that suited the elves and with whom the elves were in harmony but races like the dwarves were never dependant on the fade.