4635 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

The Inquisitor isn't good at using the Anchor at first. And closing rifts doesn't seem to be a skill - the Anchor seems to do it on its own. Remember that Solas basically just pointed it at a Rift, a bunch of magical looking chains shoot out, and VOOM, Rift closed.

We actually see the Inquisitor slowly learn to use it across the game. Corypheus first subdued you with the foci, then Erimond tried the same trick but the Inquisitor can beat him, later the Inquisitor can kind of intuitively pass to the Fade, and finally we see the Inquisitor rip the foci from Corypheus and use it to close the Breach.

At the same time (in theory) the Anchor grows more and more out of control over time.

[In Exile]

@Almostfaceman: Do you believe the ability to do magic actually makes mages better human beings (or elves, or qunari) in DA?

Also... concerning the Veil, the modern world you live in is nothing like the original world (the one that existed for 4 billion years prior to man). Do you think if someone existed who could destroy all that has changed... that they should do it?

Has there been no comparison to modern man being Tranquil? I certainly think they are... as they mindlessly parade around clicking their phones, listening to their music and watching their iPads oblivious to the world around them.

I don't see why it can be both. Solas is trying to save a world, a people, and a reality that just can't seem to coexist with modern Thedas. The Inquisitor and whoever is the protagonist in DA4 will want to save the current reality. They're also trying to shut the door forever on the world as it existed.

I'm of the view that the current people alive win out, but I don't see why it's hard to see Solas as both a hero and a villain.

[Sah291]

@In Exile,

The anchor wasn't working by itself, Solas pointed it. But yeah, the anchor was very volatile and too powerful for the Inquisitor to handle.

There are a lot of hints in the game that magic is about will, and to weild it, the mage must believe in it and exert that will to shape the world. Solas tells Cass that Templars negate magic by drawing from the world around them, giving the fade no foothold and enforcing reality, so that the word becomes less malleable.

[DAOnut]

Because I can not bring myself to romance Cullen, ever since he admitted he had a crush on my female elf mage HOF.

[Medhia_Nox]

I don't see why it can be both. Solas is trying to save a world, a people, and a reality that just can't seem to coexist with modern Thedas. The Inquisitor and whoever is the protagonist in DA4 will want to save the current reality. They're also trying to shut the door forever on the world as it existed.

I'm of the view that the current people alive win out, but I don't see why it's hard to see Solas as both a hero and a villain.

 

I see him as an elf... and neither of those things really.

 

The character I play that faces off against Solas will know only one thing:  He must be stopped. 

 

"IF" the circumstances behind the events he proposes changes... then new considerations can be made.

 

Arguing whether he is a good man or bad is largely irrelevant "in game".

 

But - as a player, I actually cannot see how people can see him as anything but a sad man who is stuck in a place long gone and is willing to sacrifice other people to fill that emptiness.  To me... it is a total indictment of immortality. 

 

I see absolutely nothing noble in what he says or does. 

 

Even what he says about his rebellion against the Evanuris smacks of the most extreme narcissism to me.

 

This is not some attempt at a trick, or snide, question:  Do you admire people who live in their past? 

I can perhaps see the appeal of someone who wants to erase his mistake... but, of course, that's childish.  He can't erase what he did.   He destroyed one world.  Now he wants to destroy another. 

 

And... he believes that undoing what he did will put the world back... which, again... is how a child thinks.  It simply is so utterly unrealistic for an adult to act this way (well, one without serious psychological issues). 

 

And, yet again... just because I disagree with people's assessment of the character... and despise the character in general... says nothing about what I think other people should think and feel about Solas. 

 

It's FAR more "dangerous" to express dissent about a popular character...

 

EDIT:  And for those talking about immortal elven gods... well - saying "how they think" is pointless... because either a support or criticism is purely made up as we have absolutely nothing to compare it to.  So I largely ignore arguments based on: "He's obviously noble because "immortal elven god" you simply couldn't understand. 

[fizzypop]

His snark is A+.

[BansheeOwnage]

@BansheeOwnage,
Sure, but I wasn't really thinking about war vets and the like. I mean how video games (and films) treat death much more casually than in real life, but for some reason Solas strikes a nerve.

That is true, in some works more than others, of course. Not many people could kill so many without it wearing down on their psyche, even if all of it was justified. Only Josephine really does talks about it (and Cole talks about some well-intentioned mistakes), but that was about one person. No one else including the protagonist really talks about the multitude of killing taking a toll on them. At best, there is some level of regret shown by Solas, but mostly they treat all the killing they do (even of animals) with indifference, and at worst, it's sport. So that does suck. I would have liked to see it emotionally breaking one of my PCs down.

 

 

Therefore I'd say that evidence suggests that Solas is right - to be a real person one does not need a body. The whole civilization of Elvenhan - and possibly how living beings came to be in the first place - appears to be a poof of it.

Yes. Cold, hard poof  

[midnight tea]

 

Yes. Cold, hard poof  

 

Hey, accurate After all it appears that they've POOFed into existence.

 

Solas: 

[GoldenGail3]

His snark is A+.

Being awkward is also an A+ too in Solas's books!

[Ghost Gal]

Like Merill in DA2, Solas is pretty much the only companion of the game not to express the by-now standard Andrastian human worldview. He has opinions, experiences, and worldviews that fall outside the standard, commonly accepted views of most Thedosians. He offers knowledge and insights about the world at large (the Fade, spirits, magic, history, etc) that fall outside the commonly accepted rhetoric. (While it's good world-building to have several companions express the views of the world's dominant religion/culture, rather than one or two despite it supposedly being the dominant view, it also gets a touch... monotonous after a while.)

 

Morrigan from DAO, Merrill from DA2, Solas from DAI... I love my non-Andrastian hedge mages! 

[Ieldra]

But - as a player, I actually cannot see how people can see him as anything but a sad man who is stuck in a place long gone and is willing to sacrifice other people to fill that emptiness.  To me... it is a total indictment of immortality.

Consider a viewpoint who sees partly existing in the Fade as the birthright of all intelligent beings (note: humans would have had that too, in the pre-Veil world), and being without it a fate worse than death. As I see it, it's not the past world as such Solas longs for, but the intermingling of spirit and material being that was the hallmark of the old world.
 
From his point of view, everyone lost a sense when the Veil came up. From the viewpoint of those born later, blind from birth, surrounded mostly by others equally blind, of course nothing was wrong. They can do well enough without that lost sense, and it may as well be that the civilization born from that lack gained in other aspects.
 
As a rule, I'd actually be inclined to think like you do: I don't believe in a sacred nature that should be restored, whatever that may be, and I certainly don't believe in the other thematic aspect invoked by the idea of a Veil-less world: going back to a more innocent time. Let them go and work towards a better future. Except in this case, we know what has been lost, to spirits and material beings alike. I'm still inclined to let the old world go, but I can't dismiss a viewpoint that doesn't as nothing more but nostalgia gone off the deep end.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra: I absolutely could see that - if I felt there was any proof that this dual nature was anything more than conjecture.  Sure... there's the dual natured world in between the Fade and Thedas where places like the library exist?  Yes, we have proof of that... but, I don't care about structures and the "wonders" they held - so that doesn't move me to want an apocalypse (I know that most people are simply regretting they can't get those wonders without this supposed apocalypse)

 

And I actually "do" have a belief in those things in real life (to what extent or in what way is irrelevant for this conversation) - and I argue against Solas.  In truth - that hypothetical I propose is not something I totally disagree with.  I believe humanity to be a malignancy on Earth and might actually be tempted to pull a Solas if given the opportunity (again, why I believe this and "if" I would really do it are not relevant for this discussion)

 

So I'll give credit to Bioware there... they made people argue opposing viewpoints that they maintain in real life (I have always been surprised you were Pro-Solas honestly - I had chalked it up to you liking his romance - but that was likely a disservice to you and I apologize.)  

 

BTW - yes, I know their's more to Solas than nostalgia... but I honestly don't think "much" more.  I mean... Flemeth knows exactly what that world was like too... and yet, oddly - she does not seem to pine for it or think it is in any way better.  She has never intimated that there is any such thing as "lost glory" to go back to... in fact, she maligns the past. 

 

The difference?  Flemeth has LIVED those 3000 years... while Solas has simply slept.  He "claims" to have watched the world... but it's clear that "Fade-vision" is painfully skewed and he gained nothing but "facts" from it.  He has a serious case of PTSD and dysphoria... and has the power to cause great damage with it.

 

And yet... she seems to have been sidelined for Solas by many... which, I feel is a shame... 

 

I am really hoping that, even if not in the way I think, Bioware brings her roaring (pun intended) back in a BIG way.  Morrigan cannot replace her for me. 

[Fiskrens]

Oh, I don't think we've seen the last of Mythal for a long while; she is after all the true schemer here as I see it. Flemeth's story is over, though.

[Ieldra]

@Medhia_Nox:
The main reason why the old world holds attraction for me is this: I believe in empowering the individual, even at the price of having to deal with something like Corypheus now and then, and a side effect of Solas' plans is that everyone will acquire some magic.

In fact, it was exactly because of this that I've been entertaining - and posting about - the idea that the Veil coming down might become a topic long before DAI came out, and I think the several thematic aspects of this idea would've all been better served had it not been combined with world-wide genocide. A discussion of the merits and flaws of such a world might've been interesting, but now everyone who so much as hints at having interest in a Veil-less world must contend with siding with world-wide genocide, and we have no rational choice but to work against those plans. I find this regrettable.

OT excursion:

Spoiler

As for humanity on Earth, we prove ourselves by the only evolutionary relevant outcome: survival. I may doubt our ability to do that now and then, but the plain fact is that if we survive, then we've also proven we can rise over some of our most detestable flaws. About which I like have a different position than you.

BTW, in one thing I agree unreservedly with you: I don't want Flemeth gone. She is a great and interesting character with an unparalleled presence. No other character will be able to fill the hole if she leaves.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Medhia_Nox:
The main reason why the old world holds attraction for me is this: I believe in empowering the individual, even at the price of having to deal with something like Corypheus now and then, and a side effect of Solas' plans is that everyone will acquire some magic.

In fact, it was exactly because of this that I've been entertaining - and posting about - the idea that the Veil coming down might become a topic long before DAI came out, and I think the several thematic aspects of this idea would've all been better served had it not been combined with world-wide genocide. A discussion of the merits and flaws of such a world might've been interesting, but now everyone who so much as hints at having interest in a Veil-less world must contend with siding with world-wide genocide, and we have no rational choice but to work against those plans. I find this regrettable.

OT excursion:

Spoiler

As for humanity on Earth, we prove ourselves by the only evolutionary relevant outcome: survival. I may doubt our ability to do that now and then, but the plain fact is that if we survive, then we've also proven we can rise over some of our most detestable flaws. About which I like have a different position than you.

BTW, in one thing I agree unreservedly with you: I don't want Flemeth gone. She is a great and interesting character with an unparalleled presence. No other character will be able to fill the hole if she leaves.

 

I'm with you - I would also like to know about this ancient Pre-Veil world, but with the price-tag proposed I simply discard the notion as unnegotiable.  

 

Is it interesting that fascinating concepts come with a great price tag?  Sure - to a point, but I think Bioware has failed to properly intimate what can be gained and what can be lost so any worthwhile discussion can be had about these concepts.  I do not believe the passive voice narrative they've pursued has done them ANY good.  

 

I don't think Solas will ever be a character that fascinates me.  I perceive his actions from the beginning to the end as self-serving and - for me - utterly depriving me, or others, of that individual empowerment.  

 

For me... you empower people by telling them about the Breach.  About what caused it.  Why I have a mark. Who Solas is.  How to best deal with the situation.  How much more empowered would I have been had Solas told me all this BEFORE I started the Inquisition.  How much more interesting would it have been for the supporting cast to deal with being in the presence of a being who claimed he was a god?  

 

Let's forget the reaction to destroying the Conclave which would, of course, be maddeningly severe from people like Cassandra and Leliana.  Bioware could (I say should) have made it abundantly clear that Solas is absolutely essential to survival... that killing him would be tantamount to allowing Corypheus to win.  Then - they could have imprisoned him for a while... in fact, I think it would be great if he had spent the entire game in the cell (unless you take him as a companion of course) - the romance could have completely played out in the Fade - and then, at the end... he's just "gone".  He could have always escaped but stayed.  

 

There's a whole different Solas I envision that simply doesn't exist... but would have been a character I would be fanatical about and would struggle with his currently proposed plan and having to stop him.

 

This character... who withholds information that cripples my personal empowerment all for his own self-serving goals... is not someone I can feel that for.  This Solas, to me, is a creature driven by pride and vanity and cruelty and an utter lack of empathy.  *shrugs*

[Reznore57]

@Medhia_Nox:
The main reason why the old world holds attraction for me is this: I believe in empowering the individual, even at the price of having to deal with something like Corypheus now and then, and a side effect of Solas' plans is that everyone will acquire some magic.
 

 

Problem with empowering the individuals in this case is POWER.Yeah you get more power ,yes you live longer.

You don't get smarter though , nor do individuals gains more empathy , wisdom , or what have you.

You also get part of the population , at least the first ones , who are always going to be the oldest , and possibly the one who managed to get more power with them starting before everyone else.

Old generation don't want to let go , new generation wants its place in the sun too...power struggle , of course.

Old generation tends to win because they had a head starts.

It's what happened with the ancient elves and the Evanuris.

It's what is happening in Thedas with Solas , the old generation who can't let go and is ready to obliterate the new one.

[Fenris8]

Wow Indeed modern academic man! You have an essay about Solas. Ok fans don't 'bash' me haha, but I dislike him. I don't have a long long reason essay of why, but that he's A) an egghead b)he spouts stuff about the fade and friends spirits (he can become a loose cannon anytime when he feels like it  He isn't who he claims to be.... He gave his orb to Cory and sort of caused the entire issue right?

 

heheh i'm not an expert on him, about his dubious bkground are from couple of videos and what those fans who crush on him say

[midnight tea]

Problem with empowering the individuals in this case is POWER.Yeah you get more power ,yes you live longer.

You don't get smarter though , nor do individuals gains more empathy , wisdom , or what have you.

 

You misunderstand the word "empowering". It's not about "PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS!!" - it's what makes the individual more powerful overall: intelligence, willpower, confidence, opportunities in life, etc. You got it all backwards.

 

And access to magic definitely doesn't just mean raw strength or power - mages don't just throw fireballs. There's an entire magical dimension locked behind the Veil that offers knowledge, insight, improved self-awareness and guidance, or help from powerful spirits, not just Wisdom, or Purpose, but also spirits like Compassion, that help people in their times of need.

 

Old generation don't want to let go , new generation wants its place in the sun too...power struggle , of course.

Old generation tends to win because they had a head starts.

It's what happened with the ancient elves and the Evanuris.

 

Err... no, they didn't win. And guess who represented the "new generation" and eventually made them win (even though we don't know how much of a phyrric victory it is) - newsflash: it was Solas.

 

It's what is happening in Thedas with Solas , the old generation who can't let go and is ready to obliterate the new one.

 

It's not that simple. The "old" thinking in "new Thedas" actually is represented by Chantry and its paranoid approach to magic (plus it has iherited from old world its subjugation of entire groups of people to few at the top) - so as much as Solas now represents world that is now forgotten, and got singed by change he was the facilitator of that he believes now more in restoration than revolution, he still represents new (to this world) concepts, like open-minded approach to spirits and Fade.

[Addictress]

How much more interesting would it have been for the supporting cast to deal with being in the presence of a being who claimed he was a god?

Let's forget the reaction to destroying the Conclave which would, of course, be maddeningly severe from people like Cassandra and Leliana. Bioware could (I say should) have made it abundantly clear that Solas is absolutely essential to survival... that killing him would be tantamount to allowing Corypheus to win. Then - they could have imprisoned him for a while... in fact, I think it would be great if he had spent the entire game in the cell (unless you take him as a companion of course) - the romance could have completely played out in the Fade - and then, at the end... he's just "gone". He could have always escaped but stayed.

Oh my god

this fanfic writes itself hnnnggg

[Reznore57]

You misunderstand the word "empowering". It's not about "PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS!!" - it's what makes the individual more powerful overall: intelligence, willpower, confidence, opportunities in life, etc. You got it all backwards.

Yeah but empowering in context of removing the veil is just that : getting more powerful magical being who are immortals.
Removing the veil isn't making anyone more intelligent , with more willpower , confidence , opportunity.

And access to magic definitely doesn't just mean raw strength or power - mages don't just throw fireballs. There's an entire magical dimension locked behind the Veil that offers knowledge, insight, improved self-awareness and guidance, or help from powerful spirits, not just Wisdom, or Purpose, but also spirits like Compassion, that help people in their times of need.

Except magic overall mean raw strength , and a few confort like healing, and mind control .
Yeah the "Library", I believe there is still libraries in Thedas nowadays.
That knowledge , insight , guidance is not Magic , it's people who wrote that , mundane can do that as well.
We have no magic IRL , and miracle!We've got a better elven library called internet!
We didn't even blow up the whole world to get it, no we waited generation after generation for knowledge to accumulate and technology to get better and it happened!
And the avaar still uses spirits in current Thedas , and they didn't rip open the veil and killed everyone too , oh my!

Err... no, they didn't win. And guess who represented the "new generation" and eventually made them win (even though we don't know how much of a phyrric victory it is) - newsflash: it was Solas.

No they just ruled for thousand and thousand of years , enslave a whole empire .And yes were finally released from duty.It just required changing the nature of the world , and changing the nature of the elves with lots of people dying during the catastrophe.
Newflash:Solas thinks he made a terrible mistake and the price for booting the old generation was too damn high!

 

It's not that simple. The "old" thinking in "new Thedas" actually is represented by Chantry and its paranoid approach to magic (plus it has iherited from old world its subjugation of entire groups of people to few at the top) - so as much as Solas now represents world that is now forgotten, and got singed by change he was the facilitator of that he believes now more in restoration than revolution, he still represents new (to this world) concepts, like open-minded approach to spirits and Fade.

It's not because you don't like the way thing evolved , things didn't evolved.
The Chantry outlaws slavery , the Chantry made sure something like an Evanuris could never happen again.
The Chantry didn't cause an almost cosmic catastrophe when in power.
Breach = Solas , Cory.
The Chantry that terrible backward institution is also willing to make compromise towards the mages at the end of DAI .
The Chantry is also willing to let people and nation police themselves.
The Evanuris were Gods and rulers of the Empire.Religious figures and head of the empire.
The Evanuris also had religious propaganda , some type of shapeshifting were reserved to the Gods.
Wants to turn into a dragon , well nope you're a sinner and you will be judged.
There's never ever been any mage utopia , magic and its practise has always been regulated.

[Medhia_Nox]

Reznore57:  Let's also try to remember where these spirits learned these emotions... they embody what they learn from us, not the other way around.

 

You could just as easily find a wise man on a mountaintop... the difference, the wise man will know what it's like to be a mortal.  

 

Using spirits is a quick fix attempt to gain knowledge... and all it makes are people similar to Solas.  Men with knowledge, but not the wisdom to use it properly - because wisdom requires application and experience and spirits cannot provide that.  They're children holding up flashcards about information they couldn't possibly genuinely understand.

[Xerrai]

 

I didn't play his personal quest... what exactly perverts the wisdom spirit?  I wouldn't be surprised if he does.  

Wow. Cynical much?

It was pretty apparent in the opening scenes of his quest that whatever happened to wisdom was out of his hands and ultimately out of his influence.

 

The spirit was summoned by a group of mages in the Exalted Plains. The area was rife with bandits with the war going on, so they apparently they had a book that detailed a way to bind a spirit that could "help them". So they performed a ritual, got a wisdom spirit instead, and were (at some point) getting attacked by bandits. With the binding in place, they ordered the spirit to kill the bandits.

 

This order being fulfilled to completion twisted the spirit into a demon because they corrupted it from its purpose.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xerrai:  No, I just believe Solas is a Pride demon in elf form... but at any rate, I went and watched it on YouTube and changed my post.

 

At the very best spirits should be left alone to dwell peacefully in the Fade.  Interaction with them is irresponsible at best.  

[Ieldra]

You misunderstand the word "empowering". It's not about "PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS!!" - it's what makes the individual more powerful overall: intelligence, willpower, confidence, opportunities in life, etc. You got it all backwards.
 
And access to magic definitely doesn't just mean raw strength or power - mages don't just throw fireballs. There's an entire magical dimension locked behind the Veil that offers knowledge, insight, improved self-awareness and guidance, or help from powerful spirits, not just Wisdom, or Purpose, but also spirits like Compassion, that help people in their times of need.

It's definitely both for me - the knowledge and the power. My main Inquisitor, for instance, was annoyed by losing the Anchor because it gave her access to the Fade and its spirits, which she wanted to explore in a rather different spirit than Corypheus, but she was also after power. The power of autonomy, to be precise. In her own words: "...behind all my aspirations to power, there has always been one single desire: to match any power that would control my fate, and to give the ability to do so - to defy both real gods and pretenders to divinity - to everyone who desires it."
 

[In Exile]

I see him as an elf... and neither of those things really.

The character I play that faces off against Solas will know only one thing: He must be stopped.

"IF" the circumstances behind the events he proposes changes... then new considerations can be made.

Arguing whether he is a good man or bad is largely irrelevant "in game".

But - as a player, I actually cannot see how people can see him as anything but a sad man who is stuck in a place long gone and is willing to sacrifice other people to fill that emptiness. To me... it is a total indictment of immortality.

I see absolutely nothing noble in what he says or does.

Even what he says about his rebellion against the Evanuris smacks of the most extreme narcissism to me.

This is not some attempt at a trick, or snide, question: Do you admire people who live in their past?

I can perhaps see the appeal of someone who wants to erase his mistake... but, of course, that's childish. He can't erase what he did. He destroyed one world. Now he wants to destroy another.

And... he believes that undoing what he did will put the world back... which, again... is how a child thinks. It simply is so utterly unrealistic for an adult to act this way (well, one without serious psychological issues).

And, yet again... just because I disagree with people's assessment of the character... and despise the character in general... says nothing about what I think other people should think and feel about Solas.

It's FAR more "dangerous" to express dissent about a popular character...

EDIT: And for those talking about immortal elven gods... well - saying "how they think" is pointless... because either a support or criticism is purely made up as we have absolutely nothing to compare it to. So I largely ignore arguments based on: "He's obviously noble because "immortal elven god" you simply couldn't understand.

To begin with, it's important to note that for Solas, the last time he "saw" his world was (in his perception) a few years ago before he woke up. He's not exactly stuck in the past - he's more like a being catapulted into the future.

Beyond that, it's not the past he cares about per se. It's the world. He wants to return the nature of the world to what it was before he wrecked it. It's not unlike In Hushed Whispers. It's hard for him to even see this world as legitimate, because apart from actually creating it, he's never lived in it. That's part of his struggle in seeing the world as "real".

If he's right - removing the veil changes the nature of the world - then he's saving the old world. People project too much on Solas. He's established he's not in it for the ancient elves as a culture even as he wants to save those that remain. He just wants to restore the part of the world he stole away.

He doesn't think it will put the world back together, exactly. He just thinks that the former world is the one that should exist.