4635 réponses à ce sujet

[lynroy]

 

What do you mean by natural state of the world?

Planets do not possess any natural state but just conditions that tend to change in time  for natural or artificial causes.

Everything flows and nothing abides. Everything gives way and nothing stays fixed.

The actual world is stable with the veil and isn't any more fake than the semi-world of dream Solas and the elves of Arlathan lived in.

I think the point is the veil, as an artificial construct, was not part of the world until Solas created it. This altered how the world used to be, thus it's former natural state (veiless world) was changed to the Thedas we have in game right now (veiled world).

[Medhia_Nox]

I think the point is the veil, as an artificial construct, was not part of the world until Solas created it. This altered how the world used to be, thus it's former natural state (veiless world) was changed to the Thedas we have in game right now (veiled world).

 

And this has proven beneficial for every race (the elves suffer on a sociological level).

 

The only race it doesn't help is a theoretical race of immortal super saiyans that want to dominate the Fade, Thedas and everywhere in between (literally).

 

But, of course - this time will be different. 

[Akiza]

I find it curious,how does he sustain the whole veil  on a planetary scale for thousands of years?Mystery...

[Medhia_Nox]

@Akiza:  Lazy writing. 

 

My actual guess?  The ritual he used to make the Veil was a form of blood magic so powerful it actually killed millions of elves... and that is what destroyed the civilization as much as anything.  But that's conjecture.  

 

It's probably just lazy writing.  

 

Powerful elf makes powerful magic so we can change the lore.  That's about as "deep" as this storyline goes. 

[Akiza]

@Akiza:  Lazy writing. 

 

My actual guess?  The ritual he used to make the Veil was a form of blood magic so powerful it actually killed millions of elves... and that is what destroyed the civilization as much as anything.  But that's conjecture.  

 

It's probably just lazy writing.  

 

Powerful elf makes powerful magic so we can change the lore.  That's about as "deep" as this storyline goes. 

Well yes for now there was little if no explanation on how the veil is sustained.

[Xerrai]

And this has proven beneficial for every race (the elves suffer on a sociological level).

 

The only race it doesn't help is a theoretical race of immortal super saiyans that want to dominate the Fade, Thedas and everywhere in between (literally).

 

But, of course - this time will be different. 

Actually that hasn't been completely proven. In no small part of what you may or may not consider a "race".

 

For instance, we do not know how Titans benefit from the veil. Or spirits. Or anything really. Our information on the world pre-veil is so miniscule that anything you or I come up now is little more than conjecture.

[Xerrai]

I find it curious,how does he sustain the whole veil  on a planetary scale for thousands of years?Mystery...

There is one theory out there that says the only reason the veil is sustained is because modern Thedosians believe it is sustained. Thus their belief reinforces the veil.

This is in part substantiated by this codex entry.

[Lezio]

The heck are you talking about?

 

Trespasser. I was paraphrasing, but when asked about what he intended to do about them, had his first plan succeded, he says, more or less, something to that effect, in his usual flowery way. Plus, i seem to remember, he also brushes off the question about what he'll do about them in the future. Could be bad writing because sequel, could be Solas being Solas

 

I mean, since his first plan backfired in a rather spectacular way, and since Cory, more than likely, doesn't even reach the collective knee of the Evanuris, one would think the guy's (over)confidence would deflate, but nope

 

 

Going back to the topic's purpose, i think i understood just why i'll have whoever-the-portagonist-will-be stab Solas multiple times in DA4 or 5. It may seem stupid, but i don't like him because, in my mind, he's simply not, at heart, a good, or even decent, person

 

My Inquisitor, because of the way the game is, is amongst the nicest RPG protagonists i ever made. Always talked to Solas, always asked his opinion, even challenged it at times and even agreed with him.... and yet, because i went against his wishes in some of the major choices(the wishes of someone who knows basically nothing about Thedas, as it turned out, and whom is more than willing to look down on another people for their mistakes[Wardens] while dismissing his own) all i got from him were patronizing speeches about how horrible my choices were

 

To make a long story short, my reason for believing what i believe is his behavior in Trespasser when he's "rivarled". I'm specifically talking about how he dismesses an enitre world of people as non-people..... because one person, the Inquisitor, disappointed him. Seriously, this may be just me, but that's just a level of bigotry, close mindedness and self-delusion that i can not possibly attribute to any kind of decent human (or elven) being, and that just sealed the deal for me.

 

It's possible my opinion would be different if i saw the good side of him before i saw the "bad" one (i probably would have, if i sticked to the templars/disband route for my 1st playthrough instead of reloading and going witht he mages/conscript one), but dunno

[Medhia_Nox]

Actually that hasn't been completely proven. In no small part of what you may or may not consider a "race".

 

For instance, we do not know how Titans benefit from the veil. Or spirits. Or anything really. Our information on the world pre-veil is so miniscule that anything you or I come up now is little more conjecture.

 

Not really.  We know that the races of Thedas have at least the capacity for a marginally better life than our own at the same general time period (because of things like healing magic).  

 

They use the capacity poorly - no question - but it's not like populations are in decline. 

 

So species are capable of flourishing... 

 

We know that one species became so invasive pre-Veil that they killed Titans, dwarves... and at the very least stopped human migration.  They likely gave birth to living pollution (darkspawn) and the only thing that saved Thedas from them was - supposedly - the destruction of their civilization.

 

It's foolish to think just the Evanuris were the problem... though Solas sure does like to reduce it to them.

 

NOTE:  Spirits are not a native "race" of Thedas... and as thought-forms... aren't a race at all.   They would exist completely fine buiding their world (the Fade) off of our dreams. 

[Xerrai]

Not really.  We know that the races of Thedas have at least the capacity for a marginally better life than our own at the same general time period (because of things like healing magic).  

 

They use the capacity poorly - no question - but it's not like populations are in decline. 

 

So species are capable of flourishing... 

 

We know that one species became so invasive pre-Veil that they killed Titans, dwarves... and at the very least stopped human migration.  They likely gave birth to living pollution (darkspawn) and the only thing that saved Thedas from them was - supposedly - the destruction of their civilization.

 

It's foolish to think just the Evanuris were the problem... though Solas sure does like to reduce it to them.

I'm not doubting the problems of the elves/evanuris/one race to rule them all things, I jus think it is important to consider the other races (as opposed to the main ones) when it comes to comparing and contrasting the current world to the pre-veil one.

 

There is more the world than elves, qunari, dwarves and humans. Those are just four races. Four out of the many other sentient creatures that may or may not exist in modern Thedas.

 

Are Titans supposed to be eternally dormant, or is it akin to a forcefully induced coma for them? Spirits can no longer 'connect' to the real world as they once had, and any who try and risk corruption. Is this veil world better for them? Where spirits like the Lady of the Forest common, or has this world all but lead to their near extinction?

 

I'm just saying there is more to this world than the four main races that should be taken into account.

[Medhia_Nox]

I'm not doubting the problems of the elves/evanuris/one race to rule them all things, I jus think it is important to consider the other races (as opposed to the main ones) when it comes to comparing and contrasting the current world to the pre-veil one.

 

There is more the world than elves, qunari, dwarves and humans. Those are just four races. Four out of the many other sentient creatures that may or may not exist in modern Thedas.

 

Are Titans supposed to be eternally dormant, or is it akin to a forcefully induced coma for them? Spirits can no longer 'connect' to the real world as they once had, and any who try and risk corruption. Is this veil world better for them? Where spirits like the Lady of the Forest common, or has this world all but lead to their near extinction?

 

I'm just saying there is more to this world than the four main races that should be taken into account.

 

And I would agree - if the proposed solution was ponderous, deliberate discussion and consensus on whether to, and how to, remove the Veil for the betterment of all.

 

But that's not at all what the loony elf proposes. 

[Xerrai]

And I would agree - if the proposed solution was ponderous, deliberate discussion and consensus on whether to, and how to, remove the Veil for the betterment of all.

 

But that's not at all what the loony elf proposes. 

And no one denies that Solas's plan is bad (save for an extreme few). Really, I can only think of....two people that support Solas's plan in its entirety. Most others are hoping that a less bloody alternative to lowering/weakening/strengthening the veil can be found in DA4.

[Nimlowyn]

Well yes for now there was little if no explanation on how the veil is sustained.

It makes sense that there is no explanation of this now, it was only just revealed. There could be clues however, such as the codex entry Xerrai linked, in which Senior Enchanter Mareno argues that "the Veil is an idea". This would be in keeping with the nature of will and belief that has been explored in the last three games, and perhaps this Senior Enchanter living 300 years before was onto something. In any event, it's incredibly lazy at this stage to shout lazy writing, we have to allow this part of the story to develop first. 

[CardButton]

@Akiza:  Lazy writing. 

 

My actual guess?  The ritual he used to make the Veil was a form of blood magic so powerful it actually killed millions of elves... and that is what destroyed the civilization as much as anything.  But that's conjecture.  

 

It's probably just lazy writing.  

 

Powerful elf makes powerful magic so we can change the lore.  That's about as "deep" as this storyline goes. 

 

Or the Veil is simply self sustaining after the spell went up.  It is after all directly in contact with the Fade itself which is like the very essence of Magic in this universe. Plus, it its not as if the Veil is a perfectly efficient construct either, it has been degrading slowly throughout the thousands of years since its been up.  More than likely it would have collapsed on its own eventually with no-one to reinforce or sustain it.  It doesn't seem necessary to vilify Solas to that degree, especially when the sacrifice of Elves to blood magic would be so counter to his character thus far.  He's guilty of many things, treating people like slaves or objects for personal use is at very least not one of them.   

 

In all honesty, with the exception of what Solas has told us about the Ancient Thedas himself, we know very little about what the world was like prior to the creation of the Veil.  The power scaling for magic usage in a world where everyone had access to magic may have just been ridiculous, or the creation of the Veil may indeed have been one of those spells that Solas described as taking years of effort and preparation to complete.  I can only assume that putting it up during a time where the Fade (and all the magic that came with it) was a part of the world was a much easier thing, than attempting to take it down from a world in which the Fade and Thedas are artificially separated.  

[Xerrai]

It makes sense that there is no explanation of this now, it was only just revealed. There could be clues however, such as the codex entry Xerrai linked, in which Senior Enchanter Mareno argues that "the Veil is an idea". This would be in keeping with the nature of will and belief that has been explored in the last three games, and perhaps this Senior Enchanter living 300 years before was onto something. In any event, it's incredibly lazy at this stage to shout lazy writing, we have to allow this part of the story to develop first. 

It should be noted though that there are  other theories out there. I know at least one of them mentions Titans, and another that mentions "elven devices" (could be referring to the orbs or the elven artifacts).

 

There are a decent amount of theories floating out there, but I personally prefer the "veil is reinforced by belief/ideas" because its the only thing that seems to match up with what we already know. That being said, its one of those things where I intentionally hold back on putting any form on mental investment because I know we don't have enough info yet.

[Nimlowyn]

It should be noted though that there are  other theories out there. I know at least one of them mentions Titans, and another that mentions "elven devices" (could be referring to the orbs or the elven artifacts).

 

There are a decent amount of theories floating out there, but I personally prefer the "veil is reinforced by belief/ideas" because its the only thing that seems to match up with what we already know. That being said, its one of those things where I intentionally hold back on putting any form on mental investment because I know we don't have enough info yet.

Exactly, I was just using one example because it came up. I also think it is the strongest so far, but that is based only on what we know, and there is a lot we don't know yet. I don't invest too heavily in any of these theories precisely for that reason. 

 

Narratively, I see DAO and DA2 as setting up the world, and DAI and following titles as installments that deepen and reveal the mysteries of the world. I think DAI represents this shift. So I think we are likely to learn a lot more in DA4, which might include the nature of the Veil. 

[Seraphim24]

Finally, at least there's an acknowledgement of not knowing "what's that far back."

 

What we do know, is that Solas has done evil things.

[Xerrai]

Finally, at least there's an acknowledgement of not knowing "what's that far back."

 

What we do know, is that Solas has done evil things.

Depends on what you consider evil.

From what we can tell, the Evanuris enslaved their own populace, that their lust for power lead them to wage war against the Titans/dwarves and that, if Solas is t be believed, also threatened to destroy the world.

 

Trying to seal them away doesn't really seems evil in that sense. Hell, even just trying to get rid of slavers doesn't really seem all that bad. Needless to say though, the solution he utilized had its own shortcomings. MAJOR shortcomings.

[midnight tea]

I don't think I implied that it did. 

 

Um, yes you did. ("His plan is supposed to be bad. If we don't allow any character to do unreasonable things, then the story has no conflict, and we have no story.")

 

 

I acknowledge all of this to be true, though I've dedicated too massive a percentage of my life to studying storytelling to feign any warmth toward the educational tone it's communicated with. 

 

edit: The poster I was initially responding to has a tendency to equate a well written character with one that he approves of morally. It is this mindset I'm arguing against, not claiming that there is only one possible sort of conflict in writing.

 

Yes, but you're also clearly implying that this is what's going on in in DAI, while we have no such certainty.

[Akiza]

Actually that hasn't been completely proven. In no small part of what you may or may not consider a "race".

 

For instance, we do not know how Titans benefit from the veil. Or spirits. Or anything really. Our information on the world pre-veil is so miniscule that anything you or I come up now is little more than conjecture.

The titans benefited from the veil since it destroyed their oppressors,the veil si the only reason why they are not extinct so Solas saved them.

[Akiza]

There is one theory out there that says the only reason the veil is sustained is because modern Thedosians believe it is sustained. Thus their belief reinforces the veil.

This is in part substantiated by this codex entry.

Not sure if that is true all i know is that a similar mechanism is in the golems of Amgarrak you touch objects and the perception of the environment is altered,the concept is very similar to the veil and was developed by ancient mages from Tevinter.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Seriously. Like Solas said, magic was just another state of nature, like the wind in the trees or the water in rivers. Ancient elves learned to use the natural state of magic to build their civilizations, just as modern Thedosians use water (rain, rivers, etc) to grow their crops, feed their armies and cities, travel by ship (thus bring in trade), etc. He comments on how a world of magic has its uses as well as its dangers, like how a rushing current can power a watermill (used to grind flour for food) just as it can drown a child.

 

I find it funny how often people say they pity the elves for assuming the world would never change and not anticipating that magic could disappear; but since magic was just another part of their natural world, could you blame them? How could they anticipate the magic just going away one day, any more than they could anticipate most of the world's water disappearing one day, or the sun just never rising one morning?

 

Imagine if tomorrow in Thedas 99% of the water of the world receded for seemingly no reason, so there were no more oceans, rivers, streams, or rain; and the only water left in the world was a few pockets of underground wells like in the Arabian Desert or the world of Mad Max. Suddenly these medieval civilizations built upon sedentary farming and sea travel, with massive amounts of crops to feed massive populations and ship travel to bring in lucrative trade, would collapse. And imagine if Qunari, who have already adapted to life in the desert (Seheron and Par Vollen) and who can go up to 20-30 days without water whereas humans die within a few days without water (the same way ancient humans were less dependent on magic than elves), suddenly decided this was their continent now and humans were too weakened by the sudden lack of water everywhere to properly fight them off? Would you then smugly say that humans should have anticipated that almost all the world's water would suddenly disappear one day, and they should have adjusted their society for such a time that they no longer had the abundance of water they'd always relied on?

 

NO! You wouldn't. Magic was just a part of the world back then, and the Veil an artificial way to remove what had always been. You can't expect the ancient elves to anticipate that there would eventually be a world without magic any more than you can expect modern Thedas humans to anticipate a world without water or sunlight, because back then magic was just as much a part of the natural world as wind, rivers, and sunlight in Thedas today.

 

The argument that "magic is a natural part of the world" just results in solidifying the anti-Solas stances.

 

In real world terms, think of the pre-Veil world as the Ice Age and the post-Veil world as the world after the Ice Age is gone. The Ice Age's environment allowed specific forms of organisms to flourish and the end of the Ice Age brought the extinction of many of those organism or the evolution of those organisms to something else.

 

Solas, Ancient Elves and pre-Veil world is like the world during the Ice Age whereas the post-Veil world, modern people (modern Humans, modern Elves, modern Dwarves, modern Qunaris) is like the world post Ice Age. Different organisms that evolved under different sets of conditions and in all likelihood, are incompatible under another set of condition.

 

Solas actions to bring down the Veil to restore the world to its natural state would be the equivalent of an Ice Age Human that managed to survive into the modern world wanting to bring back the Ice Age because back then, cold and ice was as natural as breathing and now, its been severely restricted to specific seasons and specific locations.

 

Which means those who are against Solas have a very solid foundation to oppose him and his goals since is planning to bring back a set of conditions that they are not prepared for, that they did not evolve in and will mostly die because of it. Can you imagine if some Ice Age Human wanting to bring back the Ice Age because that was the natural state of the world he lived in ? Would you not feel threatened and want to defend yourself and potentially kill the maniac planning this reversal ?
 

So yeah, thanks for supporting those who wish to oppose Solas' plans and potentially kill him. Cheers.

[Gaia300]

And no one denies that Solas's plan is bad (save for an extreme few). Really, I can only think of....two people that support Solas's plan in its entirety. Most others are hoping that a less bloody alternative to lowering/weakening/strengthening the veil can be found in DA4.

Not sure why there is this urgency to remove the veil until now and for several thousands of years the construct caused no troubles and life forms evolved within it. Why this urgency to bring back the dinosaurs and their world?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Depends on what you consider evil.

From what we can tell, the Evanuris enslaved their own populace, that their lust for power lead them to wage war against the Titans/dwarves and that, if Solas is t be believed, also threatened to destroy the world.

 

Trying to seal them away doesn't really seems evil in that sense. Hell, even just trying to get rid of slavers doesn't really seem all that bad. Needless to say though, the solution he utilized had its own shortcomings. MAJOR shortcomings.

He murdered his friend and ally because his friend considered modern people to be people. That is evil. 

[midnight tea]

It should be noted though that there are  other theories out there. I know at least one of them mentions Titans, and another that mentions "elven devices" (could be referring to the orbs or the elven artifacts).

 

There are a decent amount of theories floating out there, but I personally prefer the "veil is reinforced by belief/ideas" because its the only thing that seems to match up with what we already know. That being said, its one of those things where I intentionally hold back on putting any form on mental investment because I know we don't have enough info yet.

 

That's sort of the same thing I've been leaning towards. Since the world depends so much on a perception and belief, it'd only be fitting if the Veil was a construct that relies in large part on minds of the people who 'reinforce' the reality they've been living in (which is shrouded by Veil). The whole notion seems to be supported by spirit!Cole's comments in Trespasser, about the Veil being "False" and "fake" and "fabricated to forbid", as well as some codex entries both from DAI and DAO that mentions that crossing to the Fade requires shift of perception rather than thinking of it like it's some sort of physical barrier.

 

It'd also fit Solas's position in story as a trickster - his biggest stunt would be basically tricking the world into thinking that it's the way it is The side-effect of that would be that the trick was just too good not to be believed in wholeheartedly by most population