He murdered his friend and ally because his friend considered modern people to be people. That is evil.
Only if you look at it simplistically. And it's disingenuous of you to say that he "murdered his friend because he considered modern people to be people" - you completely ignore the fact that Felassan was on a crucial mission and he failed his leader. In that regard killing Felassan from perspective of Solas wasn't an 'evil act' made out of difference in viewing people, but a necessity.
He murdered his friend and ally because his friend considered modern people to be people. That is evil.
Sure. To YOU.
You are more than free to have your own opinion on Solas. You are more than free to call him evil, rat-faced, dumb, etc. But don't expect it to accepted as absolute fact. Because it's not.
Just as it is not fact that he is "good" because some fans say so, it is not absolute fact that he is "evil" because some anti-Solas people say so. Not saying that you can't call him that, but don't go around spouting it as if it something everyone should accept.
(That being said, most will agree with you that him murdering Felassan was a bad thing. Many are inclined, however, to think that he did it more out of a sense of misguided sense of duty that any form of malice.)
Only if you look at it simplistically. And it's disingenuous of you to say that he "murdered his friend because he considered modern people to be people" - you completely ignore the fact that Felassan was on a crucial mission and he failed his leader. In that regard killing Felassan from perspective of Solas wasn't an 'evil act' made out of difference in viewing people, but a necessity.
No, only if you look at it logically and not through a pair of rose-tinted fan goggles.
Failing a job assignment is not usually met with execution, at least not from good people.
People committing evil almost never see what they are doing as evil or excuse it away. Sols' perspective is irrelevant compared to the facts.
Sure. To YOU.
You are more than free to have your own opinion on Solas. You are more than free to call him evil, rat-faced, dumb, etc. But don't expect it to accepted as absolute fact. Because it's not.
Just as it is not fact that he is "good" because some fans say so, it is not absolute fact that he is "evil" because some anti-Solas people say so. Not saying that you can't call him that, but don't go around spouting it as if it something everyone should accept.
(That being said, most will agree with you that him murdering Felassan was a bad thing. Many are inclined, however, to think that he did it more out of a sense of misguided sense of duty that any form of malice.)
In that post, did I say Solas was evil? No, I did not. I agreed that he has done evil things and gave an example of him murdering his friend because his friend was no longer as bigoted and racist as Solas was, seeing the people as actual people and wondering if they should continue the plan or not.
Only if you look at it simplistically. And it's disingenuous of you to say that he "murdered his friend because he considered modern people to be people" - you completely ignore the fact that Felassan was on a crucial mission and he failed his leader. In that regard killing Felassan from perspective of Solas wasn't an 'evil act' made out of difference in viewing people, but a necessity.
So if let's say the Inquisition's agents was on a crucial mission (those DA Multiplayer missions) and they failed the Inquisition, does that mean the Inquisitor can kill his/her agents and not be labelled evil ?
Corypheus killed Alexius if you take the Templar path because Alexius failed him. So Corypheus is not evil ?
Love the mental gymnastics employed.
The argument that "magic is a natural part of the world" just results in solidifying the anti-Solas stances.
In real world terms, think of the pre-Veil world as the Ice Age and the post-Veil world as the world after the Ice Age is gone. The Ice Age's environment allowed specific forms of organisms to flourish and the end of the Ice Age brought the extinction of many of those organism or the evolution of those organisms to something else.
Solas, Ancient Elves and pre-Veil world is like the world during the Ice Age whereas the post-Veil world, modern people (modern Humans, modern Elves, modern Dwarves, modern Qunaris) is like the world post Ice Age. Different organisms that evolved under different sets of conditions and in all likelihood, are incompatible under another set of condition.
Solas actions to bring down the Veil to restore the world to its natural state would be the equivalent of an Ice Age Human that managed to survive into the modern world wanting to bring back the Ice Age because back then, cold and ice was as natural as breathing and now, its been severely restricted to specific seasons and specific locations.
Which means those who are against Solas have a very solid foundation to oppose him and his goals since is planning to bring back a set of conditions that they are not prepared for, that they did not evolve in and will mostly die because of it. Can you imagine if some Ice Age Human wanting to bring back the Ice Age because that was the natural state of the world he lived in ? Would you not feel threatened and want to defend yourself and potentially kill the maniac planning this reversal ?
So yeah, thanks for supporting those who wish to oppose Solas' plans and potentially kill him. Cheers.
Cute. But ultimately false.
That argument can be twisted to fit anyone's arguments, not just your own.
For instance, I could claim that modern Thedas (our rough equivalent to the middle ages) is the equivalent of the Ice Age in your comparison, and that ancient elvhenan was the more advanced society.
Modern Thedas is still trying to figure out inter-special and dimensional travel, whereas the ancients all but perfected the art. They had libraries just as great, if not greater than the one located in Minrathous's Circle. They had a people who could not age, which all but dwarfs the 90-year lifespan of the average human with good healthcare and nutrition. The could build buildings of crystal and places like the Sonallium. Most of Thedas is stuck with buildings made of stone and stuck to the ground.
Modern Thedosians, in comparison--seem primitive. So if I used this argument, then if anything making magic aa "natural part of the world" again would solidify a pro-Solas stance no?
(Note: The above is in no way indicative for how I view modern Thedas/ancient times. Just trying to make a point by bringing up a purely hypothetical counterargument to the quoted quote.)
So no, it doesn't support any one group any more than it does the other. Sorry.
In that post, did I say Solas was evil? No, I did not. I agreed that he has done evil things and gave an example of him murdering his friend because his friend was no longer as bigoted and racist as Solas was, seeing the people as actual people and wondering if they should continue the plan or not.
Right, but even some of his actions are not as absolutely "evil" as you claim. It's just like your opinion of the character, in that sense.
You can claim him/his actions are "evil" all you wish, but ultimately it is just an opinion.
Are Titans supposed to be eternally dormant, or is it akin to a forcefully induced coma for them? Spirits can no longer 'connect' to the real world as they once had, and any who try and risk corruption. Is this veil world better for them? Where spirits like the Lady of the Forest common, or has this world all but lead to their near extinction?
I'm just saying there is more to this world than the four main races that should be taken into account.
Spirits are not part of the mortal world they did not originate themselves in Thedas,in the pre-veil world they were called into the physical world by the elves with magical bounds.
I would like to point out that most spirits have no desire to see the physical world they are called ,the others are twisted spirits the demons.
Right, but even some of his actions are not as absolutely "evil" as you claim. It's just like your opinion of the character, in that sense.
You can claim him/his actions are "evil" all you wish, but ultimately it is just an opinion.
I acknowledge that not all of Solas' actions are evil. For example I don't say that him putting up the Veil was evil, since what happened as a result was an accident and he had no way of knowing or foreseeing that as a possibility.
However that makes his plan to take it down evil because this time he knows what will happen but is doing it anyway.
Or the Veil is simply self sustaining after the spell went up. It is after directly in contact with the Fade itself which is like the very essence of Magic in this universe. Plus, it its not as if the Veil is a perfectly efficient construct either, it has been degrading slowly throughout the thousands of years since its been up. More than likely it would have collapsed on its own eventually with no-one to reinforce or sustain it.
The veil was built to repel the fade how it can sustain form it if it repels it?
All we know is that Solas wanted to use the Orb(concentrated fade energies) to remove it which may hint that the veil may be dependant on these artifacts.
No, only if you look at it logically and not through a pair of rose-tinted fan goggles.
Failing a job assignment is not usually met with execution, at least not from good people.
People committing evil almost never see what they are doing as evil or excuse it away. Sols' perspective is irrelevant compared to the facts.
Actually, he killed him because he became a threat to his plans. Solas needed access to the eluvians and Felassan intentionally gave it to Briala instead. While I'm not saying that what he did was a good thing, he did not kill him merely for failing, or for a difference in opinion about modern people.
Cute. But ultimately false.
That argument can be twisted to fit anyone's arguments, not just your own.
For instance, I could claim that modern Thedas (our rough equivalent to the middle ages) is the equivalent of the Ice Age in your comparison, and that ancient elvhenan was the more advanced society.
Modern Thedas is still trying to figure out inter-special and dimensional travel, whereas the ancients all but perfected the art. They had libraries just as great, if not greater than the one located in Minrathous's Circle. They had a people who could not age, which all but dwarfs the 90-year lifespan of the average human with good healthcare and nutrition. The could build buildings of crystal and places like the Sonallium. Most of Thedas is stuck with buildings made of stone and stuck to the ground.
Modern Thedosians, in comparison--seem primitive. So if I used this argument, then if anything making magic aa "natural part of the world" again would solidify a pro-Solas stance no?
(Note: The above is in no way indicative for how I view modern Thedas/ancient times. Just trying to make a point by bringing up a purely hypothetical counterargument to the quoted quote.)
So no, it doesn't support any one group any more than it does the other. Sorry.
The Ancient Elves as a race were enslaved by 8 powerful mages who waged countless wars against one another and against Titans. Fancy tech is all fine and dandy but if it comes with total enslavement to 8 mage kings and countless loss of life I won't be taking it. At least in modern Thedas, you did not have 8 people enslaving the entire population so that's advancement.
Additionally, does having fancy sorcery justifies a plan that will kill hundreds of thousands of lives ? Does it make those who want to fight to prevent the much loss of life as bad ? I don't think so.
The Ancient Elves as a race were enslaved by 8 powerful mages who waged countless wars against one another and against Titans. Fancy tech is all fine and dandy but if it comes with total enslavement to 8 mage kings and countless loss of life I won't be taking it. At least in modern Thedas, you did not have 8 people enslaving the entire population so that's advancement.
Additionally, does having fancy sorcery justifies a plan that will kill hundreds of thousands of lives ? Does it make those who want to fight to prevent the much loss of life as bad ? I don't think so.
There is no doubt the ancient world has its problems, just as modern Thedas does. In no way was I implying that the ancient world was definitively better 9I though I went over this in my last post?)
That post was nothing more than a hypothetical counter argument to your "Well thank you for proving MY point instead" post, where you insisted that an earlier argument actually justified your stance instead of hers, when that couldn't be farther from the truth.
Do not read too much into that post. Otherwise you'll take it way out of context of its intended meaning.
Actually, he killed him because he became a threat to his plans. Solas needed access to the eluvians and Felassan intentionally gave it to Briala instead. While I'm not saying that what he did was a good thing, he did not kill him merely for failing, or for a difference in opinion about modern people.
And it was not like he enjoyed killing him either. He wasn't really impassive to the whole idea either. He was sad.
The very quote that all but confirmed Solas's hand in Felassans murder was given by Cole "A slow arrow breaks in the sad wolf's jaws".
The argument that "magic is a natural part of the world" just results in solidifying the anti-Solas stances.
In real world terms, think of the pre-Veil world as the Ice Age and the post-Veil world as the world after the Ice Age is gone. The Ice Age's environment allowed specific forms of organisms to flourish and the end of the Ice Age brought the extinction of many of those organism or the evolution of those organisms to something else.
Solas, Ancient Elves and pre-Veil world is like the world during the Ice Age whereas the post-Veil world, modern people (modern Humans, modern Elves, modern Dwarves, modern Qunaris) is like the world post Ice Age. Different organisms that evolved under different sets of conditions and in all likelihood, are incompatible under another set of condition.
Solas actions to bring down the Veil to restore the world to its natural state would be the equivalent of an Ice Age Human that managed to survive into the modern world wanting to bring back the Ice Age because back then, cold and ice was as natural as breathing and now, its been severely restricted to specific seasons and specific locations.
Which means those who are against Solas have a very solid foundation to oppose him and his goals since is planning to bring back a set of conditions that they are not prepared for, that they did not evolve in and will mostly die because of it. Can you imagine if some Ice Age Human wanting to bring back the Ice Age because that was the natural state of the world he lived in ? Would you not feel threatened and want to defend yourself and potentially kill the maniac planning this reversal ?
So yeah, thanks for supporting those who wish to oppose Solas' plans and potentially kill him. Cheers.
Ow, ow, ow... this false equivalency is so bad it hurts to look at it.
Like... comparing situation in Thedas to natural period of glaciation while we have a way more correct analogy to life-sustaining element (even in game Blackwall compares magic to water)???
Not to mention that cycles of planet warming and cooling are entirely natural, gradual (takes thousands of years for the Earth to start cooling or warming) and life has time to adjust to it, rather than be extinct and replaced. I mean FFS, humans DID survive last Ice Age, which happened about 12 thousands years ago, while anatomically modern humans existed for at least 100 thousand years.
Also... "cold and ice was as natural as breathing"? Can't you see just how silly this sounds? How can ice be "as natural as breathing"? The context is entirely off.
Now, I'm not negating that the whole "modern people may or may not survive conditions of Veilless world", but your entire perspective reeks of bias, because you compare Solas's plan to something ridiculous - you intentionally portray "Ice Age humans" as ridiculous in their assessments, since we know that Ice Age has nothing to do with "natural stages" of human existence, nor is necessary for us to survive.
Sadly for you Fade IS necessary for Thedosians to survive - and I mean both living people AND spirits. We don't know yet if cutting away the Fade won't end up bad for everyone in the long run. Way more apt analogy is the one I've done already that compares the Veil to sealed glass-house, or even Greenhouse effect we now deal with - the conditions weed out past life forms and only those able to adjust to them survive, but eventually the glass-house may become so warm it will literally cook everything inside it. We can't rule out that it's a distinct possibility - especially with the Blight always threatening to spill on entire Thedas or attempts of Qunari (and who knows who else) to strengthen the Veil.
That and there's another thing - yes, modern Thedosians have the right to fight those who threaten their world, way of living or even existence... but so is the other side. Just because the world is different now doesn't mean that those unadjusted to modern world have to just lay down and die, especially that we don't know their numbers or relevance for the whole world for it to actually exist, if it actually contains spirits too.
Claiming otherwise makes you no better than what you think Solas is: you only see one side as valid, while deny another the right to live or even exist. I just don't see things that way. If it's an absolute necessity to choose one or the other for it to actually survive what's to come, I'd make that decision, but if there's even a shadow of a chance for modern and ancient world to reconcile, which eventually means saving lives on both sides, or improving it for new generations, most of my Inkys will totally work towards this.
Um, yes you did. ("His plan is supposed to be bad. If we don't allow any character to do unreasonable things, then the story has no conflict, and we have no story.")
Yes, but you're also clearly implying that this is what's going on in in DAI, while we have no such certainty.
This is a little pedantic. My point was that the poster I was responding to habitually conflates intentional character flaws with bad writing. It's the CinemaSins effect, where a character does something the viewer disapproves of and the viewer counts it as a mark against the story or writing as a whole, even if the action in question is intentionally written as worthy of disapproval. It is that perspective I'm arguing against.
I was also entertaining his extreme opinion of Solas to do so. It was a moment of, "Let's say Solas is simply destructive and foolish, this is why that isn't a bad thing."
As a result, my summary of what qualifies as story conflict was incomplete. For that I apologize. As for my describing Solas' actions as unreasonable, I think that's a matter of opinion and perspective.
Spirits are not part of the mortal world they did not originate themselves in Thedas,in the pre-veil world they were called into the physical world by the elves with magical bounds.
I would like to point out that most spirits have no desire to see the physical world they are called ,the others are twisted spirits the demons.
The what? Where do you even get "they were called into the physical world by the elves with magical bounds"?
Also - where do you get "most spirits have no desire to see physical world"? That's like... complete opposite of what was claimed in the game!
The what? Where do you even get "they were called into the physical world by the elves with magical bounds"?
Also - where do you get "most spirits have no desire to see physical world"? That's like... complete opposite of what was claimed in the game!
Actually that is something supported by Solas himself. In his personal quest I believe. I think he compared spirits wanting to enter the physical plane to mortals wanting to see tropical Rivain.
Sadly for you Fade IS necessary for Thedosians to survive - and I mean both living people AND spirits. We don't know yet if cutting away the Fade won't end up bad for everyone in the long run. Way more apt analogy is the one I've done already that compares the Veil to sealed glass-house, or even Greenhouse effect we now deal with - the conditions weed out past life forms and only those able to adjust to them survive, but eventually the glass-house may become so warm it will literally cook everything inside it. We can't rule out that it's a distinct possibility - especially with the Blight always threatening to spill on entire Thedas or attempts of Qunari (and who knows who else) to strengthen the Veil.
Sadly for you Fade IS necessary for Thedosians to survive
Fade is necessary for Theodosians to survive ? The Dwarves would like a word with you. So do non-mages with little to no connection to the Fade.
That and there's another thing - yes, modern Thedosians have the right to fight those who threaten their world, way of living or even existence... but so is the other side.
The other side is a messy failure. The world of the "other side" was so messed up to the point that Solas had to take such a drastic action in the first place.
The "other side" had their chance a long time ago and they mucked it up. There is no reason to return to a failed set of conditions. The Pre-Veil world had its chance - It screwed up. Heck, Mythal has been around for so long but didn't she bring the Pre-Veil world back if it was so amazing ? To quote Flemeth:- "What was could not be changed."
That is why I have no intention of bringing the Pre-Veil world back. It was a world where extremely powerful demons like the Nightmare could roam practically unopposed and unchallenged because there would be no Veil to block them. It was a world where 8 mage kings had managed to control and enslave the entire population.
Now that doesn't mean that the Post-Veil world is perfect but Post-Veil folks have not mucked things up so badly the way Pre-Veil folks did.
Magic is not necessary at the same level of water and this whole "magic is breathing thing" is nothing more but Solas and Yavana Propaganda,two admittedly biased characters toward their own ends,they can spank themselves up with their magic is breathing propaganda, for all i know people to breathe need oxygen not magic.
Precisely, we have not yet heard how people with low magical talent in pre-Veil societies (the equivalent of the mundanes) survived. My guess is that they survived poorly judging by how magical strength was the indicator of one's place in a pre-Veil society with the existence of the Evanuris.
Is Solas' dialogue still being touted as historical fact about the nature of Thedas?
You have to see that the conversation with Solas is very meta. It's used as much to relay information to the player as it is to the Inquisitor. Now, you don't have to like that at all, and that's fine, but the intent is still clear: To gave the player lore reveals. No doubt what Solas says isn't the whole story, and some of it will likely be proven not-quite-true, or true From A Certain Point Of View™, because Bioware likes to mess with how we see things. But the basic parts of it (about the Evanuris and pre-veil world, and the veil itself) are going to be true. it wouldn't make any sense from a real-life perspective otherwise.
What do you mean by natural state of the world?Planets do not possess any natural state but just conditions that tend to change in time for natural or artificial causes.Everything flows and nothing abides. Everything gives way and nothing stays fixed.The actual world is stable with the veil and isn't any more fake than the semi-world of dream Solas and the elves of Arlathan lived in.
Iynroy answers below, but I'll also add that the laws of nature are obviously different in Thedas (that is, the Dragon Age setting, not the continent) than our universe, as is standard for fantasy. The world having magic and then having it dampened is more akin to Solas changing the gravitational constant than the environment or biosphere.
I think the point is the veil, as an artificial construct, was not part of the world until Solas created it. This altered how the world used to be, thus it's former natural state (veiless world) was changed to the Thedas we have in game right now (veiled world).
No, only if you look at it logically and not through a pair of rose-tinted fan goggles.
Failing a job assignment is not usually met with execution, at least not from good people.
From what I understood, it was less "killed for failing" like Corypheus does as it was "killed for changing sides/hampering Solas' efforts". So to also answer Bayonet Hipshot, yes, the Inquisition might (depending how you play) execute a turncoat, and in fact that is Leliana's first instinct at Haven. I'm not saying it's good, because it's not, but I'm not sure it's outright evil either.
I acknowledge that not all of Solas' actions are evil. For example I don't say that him putting up the Veil was evil, since what happened as a result was an accident and he had no way of knowing or foreseeing that as a possibility.
Oh my god, "veil" is an anagram for "evil"! 
Evil Solas confirmed! 
Actually, he killed him because he became a threat to his plans. Solas needed access to the eluvians and Felassan intentionally gave it to Briala instead. While I'm not saying that what he did was a good thing, he did not kill him merely for failing, or for a difference in opinion about modern people.
How was he a threat to his plans? In what way would Felassan's survival mean Solas' plan would fail? The Inquisitor is a threat to Solas' plan to, and arguably an exponentially bigger one, and yet he allows the Inquisitor to live regardless of their relationship.
And it was not like he enjoyed killing him either. He wasn't really impassive to the whole idea either. He was sad.
The very quote that all but confirmed Solas's hand in Felassans murder was given by Cole "A slow arrow breaks in the sad wolf's jaws".
Oh boohoo, the murderer feels bad about it. Doesn't change the fact he is a murderer and for someone who feels bad about it he certainly doesn't show any intention to rectify that wrong.
You have to see that the conversation with Solas is very meta. It's used as much to relay information to the player as it is to the Inquisitor. Now, you don't have to like that at all, and that's fine, but the intent is still clear: To gave the player lore reveals. No doubt what Solas says isn't the whole story, and some of it will likely be proven not-quite-true, or true From A Certain Point Of View™, because Bioware likes to mess with how we see things. But the basic parts of it (about the Evanuris and pre-veil world, and the veil itself) are going to be true. it wouldn't make any sense from a real-life perspective otherwise.
Agreed about the end conversation being as much if not more for the player than the Inquisitor.
As for the underlined, relevant:
Oh my god, "veil" is an anagram for "evil"!
lol.
How was he a threat to his plans? In what way would Felassan's survival mean Solas' plan would fail? The Inquisitor is a threat to Solas' plan to, and arguably an exponentially bigger one, and yet he allows the Inquisitor to live regardless of their relationship.
Oh boohoo, the murderer feels bad about it. Doesn't change the fact he is a murderer and for someone who feels bad about it he certainly doesn't show any intention to rectify that wrong.
Spot on. The Inquisitor has plot armor but Felassan doesn't, therefore he has to die. Also, feels do not change the action that has been taken.
Oh boohoo, the murderer feels bad about it. Doesn't change the fact he is a murderer and for someone who feels bad about it he certainly doesn't show any intention to rectify that wrong.
Right, right, continue on. Power to your views and all.
But the position still stands, you may have your opinion of Solas (however dour it may be), but don't go around trying to preach it as if it was truth.
And again, no one here is saying killing Felassan was a good thing. In fact most of us will agree that it was a bad thing. We are just saying its not as "evil" as you claim. most of us can see his reasons, and sympathis with them, even though we may not agree with them.
Magic is not necessary at the same level of water and this whole "magic is breathing thing" is nothing more but Solas and Yavana Propaganda,two admittedly biased characters toward their own ends,they can spank themselves up with their magic is breathing propagandafor all i know people to breathe need oxygen not magic.
For all you know people need to breathe oxygen on EARTH. Stop conflating the two. Thedas is not Earth. Claiming so makes it look like you have problem distinguishing fiction form reality.
Also - it's interesting that you deem Solas and Yavana's (and Kierans and others?) perspective as "nothing more than a propaganda" (laughable. You have absolutely no evidence to definitely reject them as such), while apparently not taking into account that things like Chantry rhetoric (touting the world as it is) has been either proven to be propaganda or mere conjecture in face of not knowing any better and proven outright wrong or flawed by revelation in DAI or Trespasser.
In other words - you have no basis for your claims.
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