4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

This is a little pedantic. My point was that the poster I was responding to habitually conflates intentional character flaws with bad writing. It's the CinemaSins effect, where a character does something the viewer disapproves of and the viewer counts it as a mark against the story or writing as a whole, even if the action in question is intentionally written as worthy of disapproval. It is that perspective I'm arguing against.

 

I was also entertaining his extreme opinion of Solas to do so. It was a moment of, "Let's say Solas is simply destructive and foolish, this is why that isn't a bad thing."

 

As a result, my summary of what qualifies as story conflict was incomplete. For that I apologize. As for my describing Solas' actions as unreasonable, I think that's a matter of opinion and perspective.

 

That's all just a bunch of stuff people made up though at one point or another though.. at any rate neither you nor Cinemasins ultimately determines what's appropriate for a story or what the viewer feels/does about it.

 

Not liking a story because a character is a jerk is perfectly valid, and it's perfectly valid for the viewer to reject it as a consequence.

[BansheeOwnage]

The what? Where do you even get "they were called into the physical world by the elves with magical bounds"?

 

Also - where do you get "most spirits have no desire to see physical world"? That's like... complete opposite of what was claimed in the game! 

Actually that is something supported by Solas himself. In his personal quest I believe. I think he compared spirits wanting to enter the physical plane to mortals wanting to see tropical Rivain.

I think the games have gone both ways as to whether most spirits wanted to interact with mortals or not

 

Fade is necessary for Theodosians to survive ? The Dwarves would like a word with you. So do non-mages with little to no connection to the Fade.

You may be right about the dwarves, but do you know which people have no connection to the fade? Tranquil. That's what happens to a person when they are completely sundered from the fade. Everyone else, even non-mages, does have a connection to it, and it seems to be required for what most people would think of as a "full" existence. So while tranquil may not necessarily need the fade to survive (although it's been posited that they'd die out fast), people do need it to live.

[Medhia_Nox]

Depends on what you consider evil.

From what we can tell, the Evanuris enslaved their own populace, that their lust for power lead them to wage war against the Titans/dwarves and that, if Solas is t be believed, also threatened to destroy the world.

 

Trying to seal them away doesn't really seems evil in that sense. Hell, even just trying to get rid of slavers doesn't really seem all that bad. Needless to say though, the solution he utilized had its own shortcomings. MAJOR shortcomings.

 

Is killing Felassan for disobeying evil? 

Is giving a weapon of mass destruction to the embodiment of violence and corruption to create an explosion evil? 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Right, right, continue on. Power to your views and all. 

But the position still stands, you may have your opinion of Solas (however dour it may be), but don't go around trying to preach it as if it was truth.

 

And again, no one here is saying killing Felassan was a good thing. In fact most of us will agree that it was a bad thing. We are just saying its not as "evil" as you claim. most of us can see his reasons, and sympathies with them, even though we may not agree with them.

 

1) Solas gives away the source of his powers to Ancient Tevinter magister who he hopes will unlock it and the resulting explosion will kill him. It didn't and now that same explosion has killed lots of other people and caused massive property damage.

 

2) In Trespasser, Solas reveals that he plans to bring down the Veil, which will result in a significant loss of life and massive property damage.

 

But do go and tell us how Solas is not as "evil" as some of us say....

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This is a little pedantic. My point was that the poster I was responding to habitually conflates intentional character flaws with bad writing. It's the CinemaSins effect, where a character does something the viewer disapproves of and the viewer counts it as a mark against the story or writing as a whole, even if the action in question is intentionally written as worthy of disapproval. It is that perspective I'm arguing against.

To be fair to CinemaSins, they do it for sarcastic and comedic purposes. Though they also do sometimes bring up some genuinely good points. 

[Medhia_Nox]

I'd like to know if Solas was aware that some form of blood magic was required for the orb to be empowered.

 

My suspicion is yes... it had to be someone who had a lot of "Fade power" behind him/her through belief. 

 

And Corypheus wasn't about to use the Archon of Tevinter. 

[Xerrai]

Is killing Felassan for disobeying evil? 

Is giving a weapon of mass destruction to the embodiment of violence and corruption to create an explosion evil? 

I hope your going into this knowing that I do not even consider Corypheaus completely evil. Otherwise we'll be here awhile.

Not trying to seem like a smart-allec or anything, but it is a warning I think I should give you ahead of time.

 

In truth, the only thing I really consider "evil" in DA right now, is the blight (and that may change later). That alone should tell you how I view the entire "evil vs good" debate. I may label things 'good' or 'bad' for the sake of effective communication on how I view things, but ultimately I see very few things as "evil". It seems like a very strong word, one that implies that not only their actions were bad, but their intentions and ways of thinking about it.

 

So no, I do not see killing Felassan for disobeying/helping Briala evil. But I do think it was bad way to respond to his betrayal. I'd have to view Leliana as evil for me to do that, and I can easily understand both of their reasons for killing people they knew for the sake of some sense of "duty". Still don't agree with it though.

 

No, I do not see Solas giving a weapon of mass destruction to Corypheaus to create an explosion evil. Especially since it seemed like he had no idea that Corypheaus would try and release the power of the orb a highly populated conclave.

 

So.....yeah. Those are my answers to your questions.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Is killing Felassan for disobeying evil? 

Is giving a weapon of mass destruction to the embodiment of violence and corruption to create an explosion evil? 

 

According to Solas fans, giving weapons of mass destruction to the embodiment of violence and corruption to create a massive explosion that resulted in significant loss of life and massive property damage is and I will leave the quote down here...

 

its not as "evil" as you claim. most of us can see his reasons, and sympathies with them.

 

"Not As Evil As You Claim"

 

I truly wonder what is "evil enough" for Solas fans.

 

I think the games have gone both ways as to whether most spirits wanted to interact with mortals or not

 

You may be right about the dwarves, but do you know which people have no connection to the fade? Tranquil. That's what happens to a person when they are completely sundered from the fade. Everyone else, even non-mages, does have a connection to it, and it seems to be required for what most people would think of as a "full" existence. So while tranquil may not necessarily need the fade to survive (although it's been posited that they'd die out fast), people do need it to live.

 

False. The people in post-Veil Thedas are not emotionless. Moreover, this assumes that all who cannot or do not access the Fade are Tranquils in some way. Constant use of Blood Magic slowly blocks one's connection to the Fade. Does this make them Tranquil ? I don't think so.

 

Furthermore, no one has observed what happens to a non-mage that was administered the Rite of Tranquility.

 

Also what "full" existence is exactly ? The fact that you put those words in quotes means you don't even know what that means, do you ? Most importantly, do you see any mages exhibiting the qualities of a "full" existence when you bring them to the Fade at Adamant Fortress. Nope.

[Medhia_Nox]

I hope your going into this knowing that I do not even consider Corypheaus completely evil. Otherwise we'll be here awhile.

Not trying to seem like a smart-allec or anything, but it is a warning I think I should give you ahead of time.

 

In truth, the only thing I really consider "evil" in DA right now, is the blight (and that may change later). That alone should tell you how I view the entire "evil vs good" debate. I may label things 'good' or 'bad' for the sake of effective communication on how I view things, but ultimately I see very few things as "evil". It seems like a very strong word, one that implies that not only their actions were bad, but their intentions and ways of thinking about it.

 

So no, I do not see killing Felassan for disobeying/helping Briala evil. But I do think it was bad way to respond to his betrayal. I'd have to view Leliana as evil for me to do that, and I can easily understand both of their reasons for killing people they knew for the sake of some sense of "duty". Still don't agree with it though.

 

No, I do not see Solas giving a weapon of mass destruction to Corypheaus to create an explosion evil. Especially since it seemed like he had no idea that Corypheaus would try and release the power of the orb a highly populated conclave.

 

So.....yeah. Those are my answers to your questions.

 

So, the weapon of mass destruction wasn't evil - because Solas didn't care what Corypheus blew up. 

 

You said you see darkspawn as evil... but, not a darkspawn magister?  And wouldn't it be bad if Solas was willing to just allow a good person to blow himself to get his dragon ball activated?  CORRECTION:  You said 'the blight' - not darkspawn.  The blight however is spread by darkspawn... so, I'm not sure if they're really different, but I didn't want to be accused of not reading what you wrote.

 

And... is disagreeing with someone betrayal now?

How can you see Felassan as betraying Solas... do you think Solas betrayed the Inquisitor?  

 

I accept your answers of course... there's nothing Solas can do that is evil for you.  We don't need to be here very long at all. 

 

NOTE: I think there's every reason to believe he had to kill someone to activate the orb. 

[Xerrai]

I'd like to know if Solas was aware that some form of blood magic was required for the orb to be empowered.

 

My suspicion is yes... it had to be someone who had a lot of "Fade power" behind him/her through belief. 

 

And Corypheus wasn't about to use the Archon of Tevinter. 

Except its very possible that it wasn't required at all. It was just convenient.

 

Lyrium and blood magic are the two ways one can gain a lot of extra power without relying on the fade, and it seems blood magic was something Corypheaus was more than willing to use. That it was the Divine of the South seemed to be little more than an extra bonus for Cory. Not a preliminary requirement.

 

The Divine all but represents everything Coryphaeus hates. A world that has 'abandoned' the Old Gods in favor of a Maker. The head of a religion that boast that the magisters were the source of all evil. The head of a religion that  by and large reduces mages to ward inside of Circles whereas in his mind, mages should be the ruling class.

 

Her death would cause shockwaves of terror and fear, and this was something Cory wanted to incite, if his plans for the Winter Palace was any indication.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, I think Corypheus attacking the Conclave and killing the Divine specifically were for two reasons: 

 

1) By killing the Divine and other high ranking Chantry officials at a sacred site it was seen as a way to give the world doubt about the Maker's existence which would make more people possibly follow him. As he says, "Where is your Maker now? Call him. Call down his wrath upon me. You cannot, for he does not exist." 

 

2) Killing them also threw the world into chaos even more because it removes the entire leadership of the institution that as Josephine explains is at the heart of what keeps the nations together, and also stops any peace from occurring between the warring factions meaning he can gain allies and work in secret easier. 

[Lady Artifice]

That's all just a bunch of stuff people made up though at one point or another though.. at any rate neither you nor Cinemasins ultimately determines what's appropriate for a story or what the viewer feels/does about it.

 

What is a bunch of stuff people made up?

[Medhia_Nox]

Except its very possible that it wasn't required at all. It was just convenient.

 

Lyrium and blood magic are the two ways one can gain a lot of extra power without relying on the fade, and it seems blood magic was something Corypheaus was more than willing to use. That it was the Divine of the South seemed to be little more than an extra bonus for Cory. Not a preliminary requirement.

 

The Divine all but represents everything Coryphaeus hates. A world that has 'abandoned' the Old Gods in favor of a Maker. The head of a religion that boast that the magisters were the source of all evil. The head of a religion that  by and large reduces mages to ward inside of Circles whereas in his mind, mages should be the ruling class.

 

Her death would cause shockwaves of terror and fear, and this was something Cory wanted to incite, if his plans for the Winter Palace was any indication.

 

Doubtful... otherwise, just have someone assassinate her.  

 

The point during that scene was for Corypheus to activate the orb... not just kill the Divine.  He says so during In Your Heart Shall Burn when talking to the Inquisitor about the anchor.

[German Soldier]

 

 

The other side is a messy failure. The world of the "other side" was so messed up to the point that Solas had to take such a drastic action in the first place.

 

The "other side" had their chance a long time ago and they mucked it up. 

Who is the other side?

The fossils of Arlathan whom numbers of survivor are still unknown?

[Xerrai]

So, the weapon of mass destruction wasn't evil - because Solas didn't care what Corypheus blew up. 

Is that how my prior post came up? I just meant that it seems Solas had no idea that Cory would blow up a Conclave with several people, as opposed to say, a remote mountain wilderness. Or the deeproads.

 

You said you see darkspawn blight as evil... but, not a darkspawn magister?  And wouldn't it be bad if Solas was willing to just allow a good person to blow himself to get his dragon ball activated?  CORRECTION:  You said 'the blight' - not darkspawn.  The blight however is spread by darkspawn... so, I'm not sure if they're really different, but I didn't want to be accused of not reading what you wrote.

A minor change was added in (that you remedied later on), but we'll roll with it.

 

Well....yeah. But of course you must mind that I do not think the darkspawn/blight are not anything like Corypheaus. Most darkspawn at least have the excuse of being mentally addled or being driven by a compulsion (the blight) to do what they do, but Corypheaus has demonstrated more than enough thought to his actions. But despite this, I not view him as "evil".

He is man tainted by things that reek of corruption, and awoke in a world that seemed perverse to him. Driven by despair, grief, anger and other such foul emotions, he did horrible things.

 

Not that much different from how I view Solas, now that I think about it. But Cory earns a bit more disdain due to how he goes about treating people.

 

And... is disagreeing with someone betrayal now?

How can you see Felassan as betraying Solas... do you think Solas betrayed the Inquisitor?  

In the case of Felassan, yes. He did more than just disagree with him, he actively sabotaged one of his operations (getting the eluvian passphrase) and instead intentionally gave it to Briala. He was trusted to complete an important operation for the organization, and not only did he intentionaly fail, he intentionally failed in order to support another party (Briala).....That seems like betrayal to me.

 

And as for the "do you think Solas betrayed the Inquisitor" one...well I think that may depend on whose Inquisitor we are talking about here. For me, yes, Solas did betray me (both on a personal and professional level). But for someone like you, who never trusted him in the first place, I'm willing to wager that it didn't really feel much like a 'betrayal' to you--it was just something you were waiting to happen anyway. But of course if I'm wrong do feel free to correct me.

 

Now do not misunderstand. While I may hesitate to not call Solas evil, I do still disagree with much of what Solas intends to do, and has done. I still think of some of his actions are bad.

[roselavellan]

How was he a threat to his plans? In what way would Felassan's survival mean Solas' plan would fail? The Inquisitor is a threat to Solas' plan to, and arguably an exponentially bigger one, and yet he allows the Inquisitor to live regardless of their relationship. 

 

I think what Felassan did showed that his loyalties had switched. So if he is now empowering a person outside Solas' network who probably has goals that clash with Solas, I'd say that makes him a threat, wouldn't you? Again, not saying I agree with him, just that perhaps he thought it was necessary.

 

As to why he let the Inquisitor live, I don't know, it could be that the extra year/s working in/fighting for the Inquisition had softened him. I think there are other posts/threads somewhere that discuss it. Certainly he seems to have a very high regard for a high-approval Inquisitor.

[Xerrai]

Doubtful... otherwise, just have someone assassinate her.  

 

The point during that scene was for Corypheus to activate the orb... not just kill the Divine.  He says so during In Your Heart Shall Burn when talking to the Inquisitor about the anchor.

Yeah but there was little indicating that it had to be the Divine. It was also kind of curious because apparently the Divine survived the explosion along with the Inquisitor.

But what was that thing about the In Your Heart Shall Burn part? I do not recall him saying much about the anchor other than "you spoiled it" and "you disrupted plans years in the making".

[Lady Artifice]

To be fair to CinemaSins, they do it for sarcastic and comedic purposes. Though they also do sometimes bring up some genuinely good points. 

 

Indeed, and it's usually funny. But they like to have their cake and eat it too. They earnestly criticize logical plot holes in one sentence, and then add a sin for a lack of lapdance scene in the next.

 

It's good for comedy, but much less appropriate for critical analyses.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Who is the other side?

 

The fossils of Arlathan whom numbers of survivor are still unknown?

 

 

Solas:- If you destroy that, you destroy Ancient Elvhenan !

 

Lavellan:- Ancient Elvhenan had its chance....*proceeds to wreck things up*

 

Truly, if Ancient Elvhenan and Veil-less society was so great, so awesome and so incredible, it would have survived. The thing is, it didn't. Despite all the magical marvels, Ancient Elvhenan and Veil-less society was a messy cesspool so bad that Solas had to erect a Veil to stop everything from falling apart completely.

 

The people who want the Veil gone to have it all back ? You do know that you will get everything back right ? Here are the things that will happen:-

• The remaining Evanuris, evil immortal Mage kings, will reawaken.
• Titans, colossal creatures who can cause terrible earthquakes just by moving, will reawaken.
• The source of the Taint at Golden City will be unleashed.
• Powerful demons like the Nightmare will be unleashed.
• Chaotic mess everywhere as Theodosians react to the Veil-less world

& you suppose that Solas has working successful plan to deal with each and every one of these issues ? I don't think so. For one, he does not care about the average modern Theodosian, seeing them as Tranquils. He most definitely cannot stand toe to toe with 7 Evanuris on his own. I don't know how he will handle the Titans and the Taint and the Nightmare.

 

Say what you will about post-Veil society but we did not have a society that was so bad to the point someone had to push do something so as drastic as creating the Veil.

[Medhia_Nox]

 

 

And as for the "do you think Solas betrayed the Inquisitor" one...well I think that may depend on whose Inquisitor we are talking about here. For me, yes, Solas did betray me (both on a personal and professional level). But for someone like you, who never trusted him in the first place, I'm willing to wager that it didn't really feel much like a 'betrayal' to you--it was just something you were waiting to happen anyway. But of course if I'm wrong do feel free to correct me.

 

 

You are correct, Solas could not betray me. 

 

However, my currently stalled Lavellan play through is going to be betrayal city.   

[Xilizhra]

 

Solas:- If you destroy that, you destroy Ancient Elvhenan !

 

Lavellan:- Ancient Elvhenan had its chance....*proceeds to wreck things up*

 

Truly, if Ancient Elvhenan and Veil-less society was so great, so awesome and so incredible, it would have survived. The thing is, it didn't. Despite all the magical marvels, Ancient Elvhenan and Veil-less society was a messy cesspool so bad that Solas had to erect a Veil to stop everything from falling apart completely.

 

Say what you will about post-Veil society but we did not have a society that was so bad to the point someone had to push do something so as drastic as creating the Veil.

Er, actually, we've had it happen at least three times: Corypheus' two excursions into the Fade, and Solas currently attempting to remove the Veil.

[midnight tea]

Fade is necessary for Theodosians to survive ? The Dwarves would like a word with you. So do non-mages with little to no connection to the Fade.

 

Everybody who dreams IS connected to the Fade, even if that connection is mostly unconscious. And we KNOW what happens to poeple if we cut them away from it - the become Tranquil. Everyone - even non-mages. Seekers have discovered that while experimenting with their rituals. Mages haven't been part of Seekers for centuries, so those who undertake the ritual now are all non-mages - and if they fail it, they STAY Tranquil.

 

Also - dwarves are inherently tied to Stone and Titans and Dagna tells us that lyrium is most certainly connected to the Fade.

 

What's more - we know that since Dwarves connection with Titans was diminished, they themselves were diminished. According to Cole "even dwarves don't remember dwarves", while Kieran tells us that dwarves can't be what they were without Titans and by extension - their inherent connection to the Fade.

 

In other words - you're shooting yourself in the foot by bringing up dwarves. Again.

 

 

 

The other side is a messy failure. The world of the "other side" was so messed up to the point that Solas had to take such a drastic action in the first place.

 

So that's your argument? The other side is a failure, so apparently that denies their right to live or exist? Wow... just. Wow.

 

Also... isn't it the same rhetoric people try and ascribe to Solas? That he sees this world as a failure, so he has to take drastic actions?

 

 

 

The "other side" had their chance a long time ago and they mucked it up. There is no reason to return to a failed set of conditions. The Pre-Veil world had its chance - It screwed up. 

 

... Huh. You know who used "they had their chance and they mucked it up" rhetoric IRL? All those who invaded my country after time of its prosperity passed and brutally picked it apart. We heard the whole "well, you had your chance, but you failed, so now we can murder you or do with you as you please" for centuries and it was nothing more than a cheap way to justify our subjugation...

 

So to say how morally and intellectually bankrupt this argument is would be an understatement. You can't use it and not expect for to to be an automatic defeat in my book.

 

ESPECIALLY that we know that those who mucked it up were select few who enslaved most population. Are you saying that just because the top mucked it up somehow it means that everyone there forfeit their right to live??? What's more - we don't even know if we'd be fighting just with those who "mucked it up", but those who actively fought for change in their mucked up Imperium OR beings that had nothing to do with it, like spirits that I've already mentioned.

 

 

 

Heck, Mythal has been around for so long but didn't she bring the Pre-Veil world back if it was so amazing ? To quote Flemeth:- "What was could not be changed."

 

But... we KNOW she's working towards something  Like... this is such willfully ignorant argument I have to ask if you actually played the games? I know you did, but spouting such rhetoric seems to suggest otherwise... it's how bad it is.

 

Like... we KNOW that only a whisp of Mythal has survived and crawled its way to the surface centuries, if not millenias after she was killed. And she's been working towards a greater goal ever since she merged with Flemeth. And she's been the one who - ever since game 1 - has been hinting towards new age coming and in fact seems to have set the entire thing in motion!

 

And whatever this "new age" is, it obviously means that the currents state of the world is not optimal for her.

 

 

 

 

That is why I have no intention of bringing the Pre-Veil world back. It was a world where extremely powerful demons like the Nightmare could roam practically unopposed and unchallenged because there would be no Veil to block them. It was a world where 8 mage kings had managed to control and enslave the entire population.

 

LOL. But the Nightmare is obviously a product of the Veil! It grew fat after the Blights brought by Corypheus. And it went for centuries without being unopposed and unchallenged and who knows how badly it influenced the course of the world - there's just no way of telling because hey, nobody knows much about the Fade or spirit world. Plus, the only way to challenge it was to cross the fikking Veil and use help of powerful spirit to banish it to farthest recesses of the Fade!

 

That's like... what... 8th shot in the foot in this thread?

 

There's just no way of telling if spirits like Nightmare would even be possible to flourish in Veilless world, seeing how it was a product of Veiled one. As for Evanuris - yes, they've enslaved entire populations, but we don't know yet how they've done it, or if it can't be repeated. Corypheus almost conquered entire South, and he didn't need the Orb to create his army (in fact Nightmare was the one who helped him create at least portion of it!) and had plans already set in motion to assassinate Celene. 

 

And what about Tevinter enslaving everyone and growing so powerful they thought they'd show the subjugated world just how powerful they are by storming the gates to Golden City and releasing the Blight on entire world - the very light Solas is hinted at at desperately trying to stop?

 

Or what about Qunari? They hate magic, but they effectively try and conquer entire world and there's no reason to not suspect that they can't do it.

 

Like... don't you see? The Veiled world is obviously repeating the mistakes of past - and on no smaller scale!

 

 

 

Now that doesn't mean that the Post-Veil world is perfect but Post-Veil folks have not mucked things up so badly the way Pre-Veil folks did.

 

... Well then what's the whole argument about? I think we can safely agree that the whole "those people mucked things up" can be safely thrown to garbage. Nit only it's pointless, since people keep mucking stuff up constantly, but using it is a slippery slope towards some really dark things.

[German Soldier]

For all you know people need to breathe oxygen on EARTH. Stop conflating the two. Thedas is not Earth. Claiming so makes it look like you have problem distinguishing fiction form reality.

 

 

I think is more likely that you have a problem in understanding that some basic elements are always inherited from IRL in the vast majority of work of fiction and those basic elements are usually things like   gravity,oxygen,water,the moon,a star like the sun ecc....

Saying that oxygen is not necessary to breath in Thedas is ultra far fetched because it imply that the  biology of critters are 100% different than the one of Earth despite there being many identical creatures.

 

 

Also - it's interesting that you deem Solas and Yavana's (and Kierans and others?) perspective as "nothing more than a propaganda" (laughable. You have absolutely no evidence to definitely reject them as such), while apparently not taking into account that things like Chantry rhetoric (touting the world as it is) has been either proven to be propaganda or mere conjecture in face of not knowing any better and proven outright wrong or flawed by revelation in DAI or Trespasser.

 

In other words - you have no basis for your claims.

Yavana,the lizard that is Urthemiel and Solas are biased magical beings of a lost age.

They claim that magic is like breathing or that without magic one is  blind and yet my non mages characters were not blind nor they were unable to breath.

[Akiza]

 

 

Yavana,the lizard that is Urthemiel and Solas are biased magical beings of a lost age.

They claim that magic is like breathing or that without magic one is  blind and yet my non mages characters were not blind nor they were unable to breath.

 

A mage does not know how a non mage see the world so this kind of claims are honestly unsustainable.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Everybody who dreams IS connected to the Fade, even if that connection is mostly unconscious. And we KNOW what happens to poeple if we cut them away from it - the become Tranquil. Everyone - even non-mages. Seekers have discovered that while experimenting with their rituals. Mages haven't been part of Seekers for centuries, so those who undertake the ritual now are all non-mages - and if they fail it, they STAY Tranquil.

 

Also - dwarves are inherently tied to Stone and Titans and Dagna tells us that lyrium is most certainly connected to the Fade.

 

What's more - we know that since Dwarves connection with Titans was diminished, they themselves were diminished. According to Cole "even dwarves don't remember dwarves", while Kieran tells us that dwarves can't be what they were without Titans and by extension - their inherent connection to the Fade.

 

You mean like how the Dwarves were hive minds serving the Titans in ancient times ? That's just "awesome" isn't it ? Being a slave hive mind for a creature ?

 

 

So that's your argument? The other side is a failure, so apparently that denies their right to live or exist? Wow... just. Wow.

 

Also... isn't it the same rhetoric people try and ascribe to Solas? That he sees this world as a failure, so he has to take drastic actions?

 

I did not deny their right to exist. They can exist, just adapt. Abelas is an Ancient Elf and he exists. So do the Elves at the Temple of Mythal.
 

 

 

ESPECIALLY that we know that those who mucked it up were select few who enslaved most population. Are you saying that just because the top mucked it up somehow it means that everyone there forfeit their right to live??? What's more - we don't even know if we'd be fighting just with those who "mucked it up", but those who actively fought for change in their mucked up Imperium OR beings that had nothing to do with it, like spirits that I've already mentioned.

 

You do know that the ones who mucked things up are immortal Mage kings ? They cannot be killed. Once again, you bring out the "right to live" nonsense. I did not say the ancients should die, just adapt. If they, the minority try to reverse the environment that us, the majority had gotten used to, they should be prepared to face resistance and possibly death.
 

 

LOL. But the Nightmare is obviously a product of the Veil! It grew fat after the Blights brought by Corypheus. And it went for centuries without being unopposed and unchallenged and who knows how badly it influenced the course of the world - there's just no way of telling because hey, nobody knows much about the Fade or spirit world. Plus, the only way to challenge it was to cross the fikking Veil and use help of powerful spirit to banish it to farthest recesses of the Fade!

 

Which powerful spirit ? Hmm ? The one you concocted in your mind ? The Nightmare should be destroyed, but bringing down the Veil for it is preposterous. What if you failed and it runs rampant ?