A mage does not know how a non mage see the world so this kind of claims are honestly unsustainable.
Precisely. It is a thoroughly discriminatory and elitist way of talking to people. Check your Fade privilege, mages.
"But...but...if the Veil comes down everyone will have magic again..."
Yes, but not in equal strength or equal power level.
Yavana,the lizard that is Urthemiel and Solas are biased magical beings of a lost age.They claim that magic is like breathing or that without magic one is blind and yet my non mages characters were not blind nor they were unable to breath.
Yavana:"you can't breathe"Urthemiel:" you cannot see"Solas:"You are a tranquil"Me:"I'm fine don't feel bad about it"
Solas:- "You feel fine about it but I'm gonna bring down the Veil and kill lots of people. But I am not monster like Corypheus even though I gave him the Orb ! 
"
Also - it's interesting that you deem Solas and Yavana's (and Kierans and others?) perspective as "nothing more than a propaganda" (laughable. You have absolutely no evidence to definitely reject them as such).
I'm not sure if there is the real need of an evidence other than playing with non mages protagonists to demonstrate that they aren't physically or mentally ill like those three claim and frankly i think is quite insulting to say that people that are not mages are tranquils or blind or can't breathe.
NOTE: In Hushed Whispers
If you bring Solas... he says that Corypheus tore down the Veil.
Not everyone was a mage.
Excuses I expect:
But Corypheus did it wrong!
But Solas needed to do it!
I'm not sure if there is the real need of an evidence other than playing with non mages protagonists to demonstrate that they aren't physically or mentally ill like those three claim and frankly i think is quite insulting to say that people that are not mages are tranquils or blind or can't breathe.
This is one of the main reasons I love playing as a non-mage in a fantasy game. I mean here is a land with demons, monsters, mages and magic...Here is a land where if you don't have magical ability you are somehow a lesser creature of sorts...But yet here we are, the non-mages, saving the world through real weapons wit and skill as opposed to relying on daydreams and associative thinking...
http://tvtropes.org/...in/BadassNormal
The Badass Normal, the one who does not need powers to be badass.
NOTE: In Hushed Whispers
If you bring Solas... he says that Corypheus tore down the Veil.
Not everyone was a mage.
Excuses I expect:
But Corypheus did it wrong!
But Solas needed to do it!
This. All you need to do is bring Solas to the In Hushed Whispers quest and realize that bringing down the Veil is a seriously f*cked up idea, Solas says so himself.
Here you go for the pro Solas fans who are obsessed with bringing down the Veil, this is from the Elf himself:-
"You would think such understanding would stop me from making such terrible mistakes. You would be wrong....This world must never come to pass..."
Predicted responses from pro-Solas camp:-
"He has been infected with Red Lyrium."
No f*cking sh*t. Red Lyrium is Lyrium + Taint and one of the known sources of the Taint is Black City.
"He was not as powerful as he was in Trespasser."
That is an example of how power, especially magical power, corrupts someone. Without sufficient magical power, Solas sees the Veilless world as an abomination but with sufficient power, Solas sees himself as someone who can somehow deal with all this kind of mess all by himself because "He had plans". That is how it would be for the rest of us. For those with no magical power or with little magical power, the Veilless world will be an abomination whereas to those with lots of magical powers, it will be a paradise. Which means the only real people that can enjoy the Veilless world are powerful mages. The weak mages and the mundanes, well they are screwed.
"But he says he is not a monster like a Corypheus."
& I am the Queen of Antiva.
I think is more likely that you have a problem in understanding that some basic elements are always inherited from IRL in the vast majority of work of fiction and those basic elements are usually things like gravity,oxygen,water,the moon,a star like the sun ecc....Saying that oxygen is not necessary to breath in Thedas is ultra far fetched because it imply that the biology of critters are 100% different than the one of Earth despite there being many identical creatures.
Jesus Christ... just because the life is *outwardly* similar to ours doesn't mean that the world is identical or even similar to ours in terms of its chemical composition. For all we know they can breathe with unobtanium! Even more so we know from ancient elvhen literature that the Fade is likened to the air, since they've called spirits "brethren of the air"! And spirits are not made out of oxygen - they are made from magic! Literally! 
So how can we tell what air composition is in Thedas, if elves mean it on more than just metaphorical level? In fact, likening the Fade to air suggests that - on metaphorical or literal level - people need it to exist, because comparing it to something so essential always carries implications of its importance to the world.
Add to that the fact that the life is suggested to have a very different evolutionary path (emerging from Fade among other processes) and that there's magic involved in elves giving birth only to humans. So just because Thedas has humans, stars or gravity doesn't mean that they're built the way we do - in fact, since magic in Thedas is a force in the world no different from gravity, it makes the world VERY different from our own.
Like... you attacking the whole 'oxygen' angle is nothing more than a strawman - it's entirely beside the point. My point was that while on Earth we need oxygen to live, we DON'T need magic or the Fade to survive, reproduce and whatever else. In Thedas it's different - the component of magic IS important for the world, because it's a part of it. And we know what happens when we cut people form the Fade.
Yavana,the lizard that is Urthemiel and Solas are biased magical beings of a lost age.They claim that magic is like breathing or that without magic one is blind and yet my non mages characters were not blind nor they were unable to breath.
This. All you need to do is bring Solas to the In Hushed Whispers quest and realize that bringing down the Veil is a seriously f*cked up idea, Solas says so himself.
Here you go for the pro Solas fans who are obsessed with bringing down the Veil, this is from the Elf himself:-
"You would think such understanding would stop me from making such terrible mistakes. You would be wrong....This world must never come to pass..."
Predicted responses from pro-Solas camp:-
"He has been infected with Red Lyrium."
No f*cking sh*t. Red Lyrium is Lyrium + Taint and one of the known sources of the Taint is Black City.
"He was not as powerful as he was in Trespasser."
That is an example of how power, especially magical power, corrupts someone. Without sufficient magical power, Solas sees the Veilless world as an abomination but with sufficient power, Solas sees himself as someone who can somehow deal with all this kind of mess all by himself because "He had plans". That is how it would be for the rest of us. For those with no magical power or with little magical power, the Veilless world will be an abomination whereas to those with lots of magical powers, it will be a paradise. Which means the only real people that can enjoy the Veilless world are powerful mages. The weak mages and the mundanes, well they are screwed.
"But he says he is not a monster like a Corypheus."
& I am the Queen of Antiva.
And you would be wrong. The context of Solas's answer is time magic. Not removing the Veil.
In this future the Veil hasn't been removed, the Breach still exists. It's just larger. We actually have to deal with several smaller rifts in the Veil going through the courtyard. If there was no Veil, there'd be no rifts. There's also red lyrium all over the place, a cancer eating away at everything. It's also being ruled by a darkspawn that uses that cancer to power himself. This is hardly similar or comparable to the world before the Veil.
Sadly for you, all those "biased magical creatures" are shown in the story to know more about the world and its composure than most modern Thedosians. So far evidence uncovered in DAI and Trespasser stands on THEIR side - we know that the Veil didn't exist at one point. We know (from Cole) that Veil is a fake construct. We know that magic was part of the world for a long time, since it let Arlathan to accomplish incredible feats for millenia and those feats came from knowing world around them (they had vast libraries containing knowledge, they studied the world extensively, made experiments, organized symposiums and so on. They were like our modern civilization in this regard. You think we would grow to size and technology level we are now on if we didn't know the world better than we did in the past?). We know there's more to dragons and their power. We know OGB Kieran says things that are supported by what we uncover (existence of Titans in Descent and Trespasser, the old blood of elves, Flemeth preparing something for Morrigan).
This is what you do to honestly asses someone's bias level or truthfulness - you corroborate evidence available in the world. And you really have nothing to support your own position other than repeating "they're form time long past" - which does little to support your position as well, rather it exposes your own bias against them.
Modern Theodosian civilization does not rely on magic, it relies on science and technology. Bianka invented the Steam Engine, Qunari invented gunpowder as well as Gaatlok cannons, Branka invented smokeless fuel, etc. Heck, Bianca the crossbow is a lot like gun.
Additionally, in real life, we are where we are now because of science, not because of associative magical thinking.
Source:- http://dragonage.wik...ki/Bianca_Davri
Bianca is also currently under consideration for Paragon status for her invention of a steam powered mechanical thresher and seeder.
Okay, the ancients know a lot. So what ? What's stopping us from starting the Industrial Revolution in Thedas now that we have the Steam Engine ? That's right, Ancient Mages mucking things up. Why do we need to rely on magical relics from a failed civilization brought down by the hubris of their leaders when we can make our own living just fine without them ?
Jesus Christ... just because the life is *outwardly* similar to ours doesn't mean that the world is identical or even similar to ours in terms of its chemical composure. For all we know they can breathe with unobtanium! Even more so we know from ancient elvhen literature that the Fade is likened to the air, since they've called spirits "brethren of the air"! And spirits are not made out of oxygen - they are made from magic! Literally!
Add to that the fact that the life is suggested to have a very different evolutionary path (emerging from Fade among other processes) and that there's magic involved in elves giving birth only to humans. So just because Thedas has humans, stars or gravity doesn't mean that they're built the way we do - in fact, since magic in Thedas is a force in the world no different from gravity, it makes the world VERY different from our own.
Like... you attacking the whole 'oxygen' angle is nothing more than a strawman - it's entirely beside the point. My point was that while on Earth we need oxygen to live, we DON'T need magic or the Fade to survive, reproduce and whatever else. In Thedas it's different - the component of magic IS important for the world, because it's a part of it. And we know what happens when we cut people form the Fade.
As a side note, as someone studying to be an astronomer there is actually plenty of evidence that the planet Thedas is on is similar to Earth in terms of chemical composition and the like. I get the point you were trying to make, but just pointing that out.
I'm not sure if there is the real need of an evidence other than playing with non mages protagonists to demonstrate that they aren't physically or mentally ill like those three claim and frankly i think is quite insulting to say that people that are not mages are tranquils or blind or can't breathe.
It's insulting to anyone's intelligence to treat this argument seriously or saying that playing non-mage is evidence that Solas or Yavana or Kieran being wrong since they're not Tranquils or they can breathe.
Like... since when "using magic being natural LIKE breathing" suddenly became "Solas suggests that non-mages can't breathe"? Since when saying "it was LIKE walking among Tranquil" suddenly means that non-mages are all 100% Tranquil?
This is such absurd hyperbole I don't even know I should bother explaining it anymore than I did, because I don't think I'd trust you not to twist any of my words into meaning something bizarre...
I'd only say this - well obviously if you play a non-mage character you can't do one thing mages can do - use magic, duh.
Unless people are using some external magic or devices (for example: Taint in case of Warden or Anchor in case of Inquisitor) non-mages ARE blind to it, can't sense it, can't tap into it. It's a resource they have no access to and their unconscious dreaming means that they have limited understanding or ability to interact with natural inhabitants of the Fade. And even Vivienne - frikking VIvienne who thinks magic is dangerous and mages should be separated from rest of populace - tells us that non-mages will never really understand a mage and how they see the world. So obviously there's a level of the world they hardly understand. Even Dagna, the wonder-child she is, can love and understand magic on theoretical level, yet sounds like a color-blind trying to describe colors after her first interaction with what must have been some sort of magic and has no understanding what happened to her.
Unless people are using some external magic or devices (for example: Taint in case of Warden or Anchor in case of Inquisitor) non-mages ARE blind to it, can't sense it, can't tap into it. It's a resource they have no access to and their unconscious dreaming means that they have limited understanding or ability to interact with natural inhabitants of the Fade. And even Vivienne - frikking VIvienne who thinks magic is dangerous and mages should be separated from rest of populace - tells us that non-mages will never really understand a mage and how they see the world. So obviously there's a level of the world they hardly understand. Even Dagna, the wonder-child she is, can love and understand magic on theoretical level, yet sounds like a color-blind trying to describe colors after her first interaction with what must have been some sort of magic and has no understanding what happened to her.
That paragraph is just a patronizing way of saying that non-mages are lesser people. By the way, once the Veil comes down, non-mages will only have limited magical ability. So later on, your words will be "Well, weak mages can't see the world the way powerful mages like Dreamers do.". Later, that will transform into "Well, since you can see the world the way we do, because you are incapable or are weak, we are better than you and will rule over you."
That attitude - Viewing non-mages or people with low magical power as lesser is the kind of thinking that lead to the creation and sustenance of the Evanuris system and the Magisterium system.
Truly, Bioware can say whatever they like about being magical is equivalent to having your eye opened or something but I have never felt any different when I am playing a mage protagonist versus a non-mage protagonist. Well, the mage protagonist was weaker (specifically in DAI when the Veil is torn and you would have thought that mages would be more powerful) but that's about it.
Jesus Christ... just because the life is *outwardly* similar to ours doesn't mean that the world is identical or even similar to ours in terms of its chemical composition. For all we know they can breathe with unobtanium! Even more so we know from ancient elvhen literature that the Fade is likened to the air, since they've called spirits "brethren of the air"! And spirits are not made out of oxygen - they are made from magic! Literally!
Add to that the fact that the life is suggested to have a very different evolutionary path (emerging from Fade among other processes) and that there's magic involved in elves giving birth only to humans. So just because Thedas has humans, stars or gravity doesn't mean that they're built the way we do - in fact, since magic in Thedas is a force in the world no different from gravity, it makes the world VERY different from our own.
Like... you attacking the whole 'oxygen' angle is nothing more than a strawman - it's entirely beside the point. My point was that while on Earth we need oxygen to live, we DON'T need magic or the Fade to survive, reproduce and whatever else. In Thedas it's different - the component of magic IS important for the world, because it's a part of it. And we know what happens when we cut people form the Fade.
I honestly don't even have the capacity to argue against this post because is utterly nonsense to the point where i can't even find a foothold to argue.
I still find it amusing that Solas is this supposed "master of magic" and is, according to the game, literally the worst mage in the game.
He sure wins the award for talking about it though, I guess you have to acknowledge that on some level.
For all you know people need to breathe oxygen on EARTH. Stop conflating the two. Thedas is not Earth. Claiming so makes it look like you have problem distinguishing fiction form reality.
There was that time in which a pirate named Isabela tried to escape with her ship from the Qunari and in order to gain speed she had to throw into the sea some slaves.I presume those slaves died drowned....they were not able to breath under the sea which seem to imply that in Thedas some rules aren't that much different.
Ok I'm willing to make peace, someone explain exactly why Solas is necessary to stay functioning/alive so that Thedas doesn't go super boom pow in a way that doesn't demonstrate obvious bias and preferences for his character which is all I've seen till this point.
Modern Theodosian civilization does not rely on magic, it relies on science and technology. Bianka invented the Steam Engine, Qunari invented gunpowder as well as Gaatlok cannons, Branka invented smokeless fuel, etc. Heck, Bianca the crossbow is a lot like gun.
Additionally, in real life, we are where we are now because of science, not because of associative magical thinking.
... Do we really have to go through this again?
In short: science is a tool to study nature and technology is a byproduct of us using it appropriately and expanding our knowledge on the universe. In Thedas magic is a part of the universe. So naturally in Thedas magic IS a part of science and technology! Heck, dwarves were even the one who invented enchanting - stuff that most definitely requires magic in form of lyrium.
In fact all things point to Arlathan being a highly technologically advanced, scientific-minded civilization. Not only Solas displays scientific mindset - in Vir Dirthara we find numerous codices focused on research of magic and world, while in Corssroads we find Ghilan'nans scientific experiments involving advanced enchanting.
In other words, you couldn't be more wrong. The irony of Thedas is, in relation to our world, that "ancient world" resembles our civilization more than current state of Thedas. When you read about Arlathan and listen to Solas it's becoming obvious that ancient Arlathan is a cautionary tale for us about exploits of advancements of technology and power that it brings.
Okay, the ancients know a lot. So what ? What's stopping us from starting the Industrial Revolution in Thedas now that we have the Steam Engine ? That's right, Ancient Mages mucking things up. Why do we need to rely on magical relics from a failed civilization brought down by the hubris of their leaders when we can make our own living just fine without them ?
Like I said, people muck things up, no matter of world state of situation. Did you know that we had first experiments with rudimentary steam engines during times of frikking ancient Greece? Guess what mucked progress for almost two millenia, before age of Enlightement? Us and our adherence to silly religious dogmas and stifling of innovative thought.
What's more the progress in Veiled world has more definitely been stifled, sometimes for centuries. It's hard to be innovative in the shadow of Archdemon's wings or when Darkspawn are gnawing on your newest project, together with your fingers and head and occasional family member.
Plus - you realize that necessity is a mother of invention? I mean, what would ancient mages need steam engine for? What would they need stuff like eventual cars or airplanes for if they have eluvians and magic able to lift terrible weights to transport them safely and quickly to the very edges of the continent in a matter of seconds? What would they need syringes or blood transfusion when healing magic can bring someone from the brink, or sometimes beyond? What would they need computers or Internet for, when they have pretty much a natural version of it, far superior to what we currently have?
In other words - why would Thedas need to go through Industrial Revolution the like of we have? What if part of that Revolution means realizing at one point that magic is essential for civilization to progress, given that magic IS part of that world?
And what stops them from mucking things up later, when they go past steam engine and reach Thedosian equivalent of nuclear weapon? What about the fact that even in our world the clash between old and new civilization brought about two devastating world wars and we never know if we wont' bring down the third on our head, as well as eventual end of our civilization, since you only need a fraction of our available nuclear arsenal to wipe us from this planet by initiating devastating nuclear winter? And if all of it goes kaboom at the same time, we're talking wiping the life to bacteria level for at least a couple of millenia.
This is exactly why I say that we should look at Arlathan as OUR world gone wrong. This is also exactly why I say that the whole "mages mucked things up so we should get rid of them and likely magic as well" as super-naive, because eventually - in a scenario where the world actually goes about without any other cataclysm waiting for it - the civilization will catch up to a point where it can destroy itself easily. I mean... what are people going to do then? Shrug helplessly and be all like "oh well, we had a chance to learn how to wield great power responsibly, but guess what - we mucked this up!"?
It's insulting to anyone's intelligence to treat this argument seriously or saying that playing non-mage is evidence that Solas or Yavana or Kieran being wrong since they're not Tranquils or they can breathe.
Like... since when "using magic being natural LIKE breathing" suddenly became "Solas suggests that non-mages can't breathe"? Since when saying "it was LIKE walking among Tranquil" suddenly means that non-mages are all 100% Tranquil?
This is such absurd hyperbole I don't even know I should bother explaining it anymore than I did, because I don't think I'd trust you not to twist any of my words into meaning something bizarre...
I'd only say this - well obviously if you play a non-mage character you can't do one thing mages can do - use magic, duh.
Unless people are using some external magic or devices (for example: Taint in case of Warden or Anchor in case of Inquisitor) non-mages ARE blind to it, can't sense it, can't tap into it. It's a resource they have no access to and their unconscious dreaming means that they have limited understanding or ability to interact with natural inhabitants of the Fade. And even Vivienne - frikking VIvienne who thinks magic is dangerous and mages should be separated from rest of populace - tells us that non-mages will never really understand a mage and how they see the world. So obviously there's a level of the world they hardly understand. Even Dagna, the wonder-child she is, can love and understand magic on theoretical level, yet sounds like a color-blind trying to describe colors after her first interaction with what must have been some sort of magic and has no understanding what happened to her.
First calm down i cannot fathom why I(or anyone else) should even bother to bear such passive aggressive attitude.
There was that time in which a pirate named Isabela tried to escape with her ship from the Qunari and in order to gain speed she had to throw into the sea some slaves.I presume those slaves died drowned....they were not able to breath under the sea which seem to imply that in Thedas some rules aren't that much different.
Relax, according to Midnight Tea Theodosians do not breathe oxygen./s
*snip*
You are not making sense at all.
So if Arlathan is supposed to be cautionary tale, then why are we so keen on wanting to bring it back ?
Yes, necessity is the mother of invention and this is somehow bad because we have magic ? Then why are you concerning yourself with ancient Elven inventions ?
Industrial Revolution does not involve magic because Steam Machines and factories do not involve magic, just science.
The Qunari, even though I dislike them, is an example of a civilization that is advancing without magic. Even though I do not like them, there is no denying that they are the most technologically advanced society in Thedas.
I don't know why I waste my time with you to be honest. You clearly values symposiums, libraries and inter-dimensional teleportation magic over the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Newsflash - Discovery of the Theodosian Steam Engine did not require an apocalyptic event.
That attitude reminds of a group of people who were perfectly okay with sacrificing another group of people for the possibility of learning about hypothermia and other forms of medicine related knowledge and those same people had no problems seeing others as lesser or less complete, just like you are doing right now.
Modern Theodosian civilization does not rely on magic, it relies on science and technology. Bianka invented the Steam Engine, Qunari invented gunpowder as well as Gaatlok cannons, Branka invented smokeless fuel, etc. Heck, Bianca the crossbow is a lot like gun.
Additionally, in real life, we are where we are now because of science, not because of associative magical thinking.
Source:- http://dragonage.wik...ki/Bianca_Davri
Okay, the ancients know a lot. So what ? What's stopping us from starting the Industrial Revolution in Thedas now that we have the Steam Engine ? That's right, Ancient Mages mucking things up. Why do we need to rely on magical relics from a failed civilization brought down by the hubris of their leaders when we can make our own living just fine without them ?
That paragraph is just a patronizing way of saying that non-mages are lesser people. By the way, once the Veil comes down, non-mages will only have limited magical ability. So later on, your words will be "Well, weak mages can't see the world the way powerful mages like Dreamers do.". Later, that will transform into "Well, since you can see the world the way we do, because you are incapable or are weak, we are better than you and will rule over you."
That attitude - Viewing non-mages or people with low magical power as lesser is the kind of thinking that lead to the creation and sustenance of the Evanuris system and the Magisterium system.
Truly, Bioware can say whatever they like about being magical is equivalent to having your eye opened or something but I have never felt any different when I am playing a mage protagonist versus a non-mage protagonist. Well, the mage protagonist was weaker (specifically in DAI when the Veil is torn and you would have thought that mages would be more powerful) but that's about it.
Hon, you're the one who is spouting "lesser people" and "us vs. them" BS not me, by saying that certain people had their chance, they've mucked things up, so apparently now it's OK for them to go bye-bye without us batting an ye on it. So don't try and strawman me into what I didn't say to conveniently drag me to your level.
(Also - nice that you mention Evanuris and Magisterium, but conveniently ignore Chantry and South full of subjugated peasantry or 2nd class citizens or citizens with life-sentence for even daring to have a magical ability, all thought of by many folks as intrinsically lesser and treated accordingly. That, and denying any inhabitant of the Fade even a semblance of personhood and either feared of or abused).
Now... suggesting that people are blind to magic in Veiled world *might* suggest that if the Veil lifts up those with magical talent will be more capable, but there's little to no evidence to suggest that non-mages are or will stay weak. In fact, both Solas AND Morrigan say that willpower, control over emotion and magic is like a muscle - it atrophies without use and strengthens if they practice. Seekers gain magic powers after all, and they are indeed very powerful. Inquisitor grows in power the more they wield the Anchor, to a point where Solas deems any Inky of any race or gender as similar in spirit to people from ancient past. So nobody said that this is unobtainable... though of course it likely it requires Veil to drop down in order for non-mages to even try it on a large scale.
In other words - it may be that the inherent power people have, but are currently blind to because of the Veil and superstition against magic prevents them from becoming stronger, rather than 'lesser'.
Also - how would a Breach make mages more powerful, when it's basically said that it hurts Fade and its inhabitants and by extension magic users? If it was as easy for magic to come back by making a hole through Veil, Solas wouldn't drop everything and risk his life to seal it. There's obviously more to it than that.
Relax, according to Midnight Tea Theodosians do not breathe oxygen./s
Hon, you're the one who is spouting "lesser people" and "us vs. them" BS not me, by saying that certain people had their chance, they've mucked things up, so apparently now it's OK for them to go bye-bye without us batting an ye on it. So don't try and strawman me into what I didn't say to conveniently drag me to your level.
I mentioned that Ancient Elvhenan had its chance, I did not say the Elvhen had its chance. One is an environment, the other's the people.
Also - how would a Breach make mages more powerful, when it's basically said that it hurts Fade and its inhabitants and by extension magic users? If it was as easy for magic to come back by making a hole through Veil, Solas wouldn't drop everything and risk his life to seal it. There's obviously more to it than that.
Fade is literally bleeding into Thedas and mages are becoming weaker as a result ? What do spirits have to do with one's magical ability ? You use the Fade and Veil to cast your spells.
What do they breathe then ,magic?How can oxygen be absent in Thedas if there is water which is composed by it?
Ask her LOL. She probably thinks they breath magic or something.
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