4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Sah291]

Hon, you're the one who is spouting "lesser people" and "us vs. them" BS not me, by saying that certain people had their chance, they've mucked things up, so apparently now it's OK for them to go bye-bye without us batting an ye on it. So don't try and strawman me into what I didn't say to conveniently drag me to your level.
 
(Also - nice that you mention Evanuris and Magisterium, but conveniently ignore Chantry and South full of subjugated peasantry or 2nd class citizens or citizens with life-sentence for even daring to have a magical ability, all thought of by many folks as intrinsically lesser and treated accordingly. That, and denying any inhabitant of the Fade even a semblance of personhood and either feared of or abused).
 
Now... suggesting that people are blind to magic in Veiled world *might* suggest that if the Veil lifts up those with magical talent will be more capable, but there's little to no evidence to suggest that non-mages are or will stay weak. In fact, both Solas AND Morrigan say that willpower, control over emotion and magic is like a muscle - it atrophies without use and strengthens if they practice. Seekers gain magic powers after all, and they are indeed very powerful. Inquisitor grows in power the more they wield the Anchor, to a point where Solas deems any Inky of any race or gender as similar in spirit to people from ancient past. So nobody said that this is unobtainable... though of course it likely it requires Veil to drop down in order for non-mages to even try it on a large scale.
 
In other words - it may be that the inherent power people have, but are currently blind to because of the Veil and superstition against magic prevents them from becoming stronger, rather than 'lesser'.
 
Also - how would a Breach make mages more powerful, when it's basically said that it hurts Fade and its inhabitants and by extension magic users? If it was as easy for magic to come back by making a hole through Veil, Solas wouldn't drop everything and risk his life to seal it. There's obviously more to it than that.

I think this whole issue is irrelevant, because the idea of the powerful ruling the weak hasn't ceased to exist with the Veil up, nor in non mage ruled societies.

Knowledge is power in any society, and that counts whether it is arcane knowledge, science, or technology, etc.

Putting the Veil up might have originally been an attempt to diffuse power of the elite, but the result also stripped power from the already powerless. So there's that.

[midnight tea]

 

First calm down i cannot fathom why I(or anyone else) should even bother to bear such passive aggressive  attitude.

Second you are not required to do nothing much less try to drill in someone else head how mages are more complete than non-mages because they can use magic  while the others  are not connected to  the spirits as a whole which is nosense since the Spiritual warriors are non mages and they can even cross the veil like the dreamers.

 

Hon, you want to see passive aggressive? Go and stand before the mirror. There's no more annoying passive-aggressive technique than strawmanning a person you're talking with or taking what they said to silly extreme and you've done this to me and others in spades - and you've only given me another example.

 

Like - where do I even say nonsense like "they're not connected to the spirits as a whole"? I said they have 'limited ability' to interact with spirits or have to use its external sources or devices - which is entirely true in case of Spirit Warriors, who don't use their inherent magical abilities, but basically flirt with possession and use their power to augment their own.

[Aren]

Hon, you want to see passive aggressive? Go and stand before the mirror. There's no more annoying passive-aggressive technique than strawmanning a person you're talking with or taking what they said to silly extreme and you've done this to me and others in spades - and you've only given me another example.

 

There is no need to convince/demonstrate  that this isn't a form of pedantic and passive/aggressive form of debate since even other users perceived it as such(from you).

 

 

Like - where do I even say nonsense like "they're not connected to the spirits as a whole"? I said they have 'limited ability' to interact with spirits or have to use its external sources or devices - which is entirely true in case of Spirit Warriors, who don't use their inherent magical abilities, but basically flirt with possession and use their power to augment their own.

Which is entirely false in case of the SW since they use their abilities to call and contact spirits

The capacity to call spirits is an inherent ability they possess and they can even partially cross the fade without Lyrium like the dreamers.

 

The notion that mages use inherent magical abilities is in itself without sense at best you can say taht they are using as their tool the fade for their magic

[midnight tea]

 

I mentioned that Ancient Elvhenan had its chance, I did not say the Elvhen had its chance. One is an environment, the other's the people.

 

... That doesn't work in a world where environment and people are inherently tied together. And they ARE. And we weren't just talking ancient Arlathan - we were talking the world at large how it was prior to lifting the Veil.

 

 

 

 

Fade is literally bleeding into Thedas and mages are becoming weaker as a result ? What do spirits have to do with one's magical ability ? You use the Fade and Veil to cast your spells.

 

Fade and spirits are basically one and spirits do indeed crowd around the mage when they're casting spells, in fact Cole's comment implies that that's how some spirits originate.

 

Cole: Do you feel spirits move around you when you cast a spell?

Cole: Bits of them push through with your magic, tiny, a wisp of a wisp, free before falling back. They pool around you, water in a cup, defined, deafened, hearing only your song.

Cole: They want to skate, scintillate on skin. You made them. Their Maker.

Vivienne: Now. I need. A bath.

 

And who knows how else the Breach might have disrupted the whole "Fade channeling"? Cole (and Solas I think) mention that the Breach is hurting spirits by being 'too loud' and it may have similar, albeit diminished, effect on mages - they wouldn't be doubling-over in pain, but their magic-casting would be affected in some ways. Plus what bleeds to the world is raw Fade and we know from Rift specialization that interacting or using one requires specific training. Mages can't just "tap" to the Fade that pools around them - likely courtesy of the Veil which most mages considered natural to learn and utilize while spell casting.

 

 

 

 

Ask her LOL. She probably thinks they breath magic or something.

 

 

I already explained it LOL. Seems you three have problem with reading comprehension.

 

I mean, how bad you have to be in it to make "similarities to our world are superficial and naturally the existence of magic as a natural force in the world, as well as suggested very different origins of life means that we can't make straightforward comparisons to Earth on level of 'well, we need oxygen to survive, but not magic, and by implication Thedosians must do so too' are entirely fallacious" into "wow, she must think *everything's* different and I point out that people can't drown since they breathe magic or something!"

 

This is simply facepalm-worthy strawman.

[Gaia300]

I think the games have gone both ways as to whether most spirits wanted to interact with mortals or not

 

From what i recall all the games suggested only the opposite,that true spirits(not twisted) don't like to cross the veil because they are not attracted by  mortals and it is very rare for a spirit to cross willingly the veil. (unless they are called by all virtuous spiritual warriors)

Justice,Solas,Wynne all support the same view i don't remember anyone who said the contrary,

[midnight tea]

There is no need to convince/demonstrate  that this isn't a form of pedantic and passive/aggressive form of debate since even other users perceived it as such(from you).

 

You mean that one time Secret Rare called my comment "a little pedantic" in a different context and made no accusation of any sort of aggression? Oh, this is desperate. 

 

TBH I have to be amused at the whole accusations of passive-aggressiveness. I am pretty straightforward when someone or someone's argumentation reaches the point of being somewhat annoying or I'm tired with repeating or clarifying something that doesn't really requires clarification. That's all there is to it.

 

 

 

Which is entirely false in case of the SW since they use their abilities to call and contact spirits

The capacity to call spirits is an inherent ability they possess and they can even partially cross the fade without Lyrium like the dreamers.

 

"Although spirit warriors employ magical abilities, they are not mages; instead, they flirt with inhabitants of the Fade who agree to augment mortal abilities in exchange for a glimpse of the physical world. Naturally, the Chantry's templars rarely acknowledge that distinction."

Right... except it's there, written black on white. Plus, the ability *obviously* has to be trained. Nobody gets to be born a Spirit Warrior or manifest abilities without anyone's help, like in case of mages. That's true of every non-mage who uses magical abilities - Spirit Warriors, Templars or Seekers. They won't exhibit any magical talents on their own, prior to training or rituals or lyrium consumption.

 

 

The notion that mages use inherent magical abilities is in itself without sense at best you can say taht they are using as their tool the fade for their magic

 

It IS inherent in a sense that their connection to the Fade is a conscious one, and one they don't have to use any external powers, forces or tools to channel Fade, limited as their personal capability to channel it can be. They *can* use external tools to augment their power, but ultimately the connection was always there and It comes naturally to them. It doesn't have to be established or re-established. That's the major difference between mages and non-mages.

[Sah291]

From what i recall all the games suggested only the opposite,that true spirits(not twisted) don't like to cross the veil because they are not attracted by  mortals and it is very rare for a spirit to cross willingly the veil. (unless they are called by all virtuous spiritual warriors)
Justice,Solas,Wynne all support the same view i don't remember anyone who said the contrary,

Justice said in DAA that many spirits look down on mortals and think they aren't worth saving. And that he disagrees and thinks they are. So I don't know. Some are maybe content as they are and don't need any reason to interact with mortals. And maybe some do, if they take interest in someone they find virtuous enough. Maybe it's more that mortals more often have to cross the Veil to seek them out, rather than the other way around?

[Almostfaceman]

 

I already explained it LOL. Seems you three have problem with reading comprehension.

 

I mean, how bad you have to be in it to make "similarities to our world are superficial and naturally the existence of magic as a natural force in the world, as well as suggested very different origins of life means that we can't make straightforward comparisons to Earth on level of 'well, we need oxygen to survive, but not magic, and by implication Thedosians must do so too' are entirely fallacious" into "wow, she must think *everything's* different and I point out that people can't drown since they breathe magic or something!"

 

This is simply facepalm-worthy strawman.

 

With Bayonet I think it's just simple trolling. That's a compliment, Bayonet, that I don't really think you're as obtuse as you pretend to be. 

 

With the other two, they've demonstrated a basic lack of English comprehension that facilitates meaningful dialogue. They're constantly interpreting things in such a wacky, odd way I think their Google translate is on "troll" setting. 

 

And yes, Hanako, I used the word obtuse again. 

 

 

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

With Bayonet I think it's just simple trolling. That's a compliment, Bayonet, that I don't really think you're as obtuse as you pretend to be. 

 

I don't think its trolling to place a value on the lives of people that will be lost when Solas brings down the Veil and to oppose him for that reason. Of course, if you don't care about people's lives, this will not matter to you.
 

The way you and Midnight Tea present your argument, it sounds like that there will be some form of utopia when the Veil goes down which will not happen since there is no such thing as a utopia. Furthermore, the pro-Solas camp is not bothering to address these concerns.

1. How will we defeat 7 immortal mage kings when the Veil goes down ?
2. How can we successfully mount a fight against extremely powerful demons like the Nightmare demon as the world burns in the raw chaos ?
3. How will we deal with the Titans, colossal beings who can generate massive Earthquakes by just moving around from wrecking the land, since the Titans are asleep due to the Veil ?
4. How will we deal with the Taint in the Black City / Golden City ?
5. How will we deal with the fact that the current Theodosian populations, like the Qunari, are going to band together and try to kill those who brought down the Veil since the Qunari despise magic and the loss of the Veil would be a massive threat to their lifestyle ?

I mean, all the pro-Solas folks have to offer right now is essentially boils down to:- "Magic is a natural part of the world."

 

Sure, magic is a natural part of this world but unless you are going to give me sensible plans on how to deal with those 5 issues I raised above instead of "I had plans" and try to give me some evidence that it would be possible for the Veil to come down without massive loss of life, you can't expect me to agree with your stance.

 

Cheers.

[R0vena]

 

From what i recall all the games suggested only the opposite,that true spirits(not twisted) don't like to cross the veil because they are not attracted by  mortals and it is very rare for a spirit to cross willingly the veil. (unless they are called by all virtuous spiritual warriors)

Justice,Solas,Wynne all support the same view i don't remember anyone who said the contrary,

 

Didn't Solas said something like "Spirits want to join the living and the demon is that wish gone wrong?" If I remember it right, it implicates that at least some spirits want to cross the Veil, no?

[Almostfaceman]

I don't think its trolling to place a value on the lives of people that will be lost when Solas brings down the Veil and to oppose him for that reason. Of course, if you don't care about people's lives, this will not matter to you.
 

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

 

This is video evidence where Solas openly talks about the reality that taking the Veil down will kill lots of people.

 

 

Additionally, you have not addressed any of my actual concerns.

[Almostfaceman]

This is video evidence where Solas openly talks about the reality that taking the Veil down will kill lots of people.

 

 

Additionally, you have not addressed any of my actual concerns.

 

I say you're straw manning and you just do it again?   If you've been paying any attention at all to this thread - this post illustrates you haven't or are just trolling - I've talked about my views with regards to Solas and probably have addressed all of your... unlisted actual concerns. Just read the thread. 

 

See? This was the pretend obtuseness I was alluding to earlier. Thanks for the great example. 

 

At least... I hope it's pretend. 

[Seraphim24]

No offense Faceman but could I politely request you stop with the gifs?

[Almostfaceman]

No offense Faceman but could I politely request you stop with the gifs?

 

I will not stop with the gifs. They're way too much fun. This is nothing personal against you, of course. 

 

[midnight tea]

 

I honestly don't even have the capacity to argue against this post because is utterly nonsense to the point where i can't even find a foothold to argue.

Implying that a narrative transposition from IRL critters to Thedas( bears,deer,rabbits  ecc..) have a totaly different working biology because there is magic is an absurdity.

 

How we can tell that the fictional planet in which Thedas is displayed was inspired to some degree by the Earth?

I don't know maybe the rivers,the mountains,the trees,the wind,the minerals and everything else aside from the fade/lyrium is excatly the same?

But no.... I'm wrong because is more probable that the writers intended everything to be so different and magical dependent that Thedas is totally different in its chemical elements than Earth because midnight tea said so.

 

Oh German... I'd advise you to try not to be sassy. You can't pull it off even if your life depended on it. I mean, it would be half-alright if your arguments weren't ridiculous... but I suppose that's the point of covering it with colorfully dismissive snark. You have nothing to say that can't be easily dismantled as silly... but you still want to try and discredit a person you disagree with and dislike and make yourself look superior, aww *pats, pats*

 

 

Now, back to the meat of things... I don't know why I bother after you've proven once again that you're not interested with anything but our headcanon and plethora of unsupported assumptions, but here it goes: so what if there are things that are similar to that from Earth? Yes they have humans, foxes, rabbits or bears... there are also Qunari, dwarves, elves, giants, golems, dragons, dracolisks, phoenixes, nugs and in the past there even were snake people as well as all kind of bizarre creatures, as depicted on elven murals scattered all across DAI or mentioned in Vir Dirthara.

 

And sure, we have rivers, mountains, rocks... we also have floating rocks, water systems powered by seemingly nothing (how come Skyhold have multiple waterfalls? They wouldn't be able to exist IRL in similar locations. Neither would the climate inside the fortress be mild enough for plants to grow and for people to walk in casual clothes) and entire zones with a climate unfitting its geographical location (Arbor Wilds are as close to Thedas' South Pole as you can get, yet it's a lush jungle), ginormous trees the size we've never seen here and supporting entire ecosystem around them, separate realm built entirely from magic, separate artificial realms existing between Thedas and Fade, lyrium which is a living mineral basically and a blood of a ginormous magical creature that can shape reality (and even bring back dead people to life) and entire civilization closed under earth and lit by enormous pools of lava, which on our Earth would mean they'd lack breathable air, but likely cook themselves first from sheer temperature before they even tried to take the first gasp of it. Like... there's a reason why civilizations in lava caves exist only in fantasy, hon. Because in our world such conditions would be lethal to most life forms, save perhaps some microbes. 

 

To all this add spirits and whole damn dimension of magic that has direct connection with everything in Thedas and can override almost any other law or rule in the world, given enough willpower or accumulated power.

 

Like... dude. Just use that brain of yours and THINK for a second. The resemblance to Earth, or even resemblance of certain cultures or even use of English (which the devs said in Tweet already is NOT English), is there to strengthen its relatability to us, the audience. Even if there are indeed similarities to how that world works, at least on surface level (which includes how the physical world appears to work), does NOT mean that things are identical to what we have here or that they mimic 1:1 what is on Earth. Common Tongue is not English. Orlais is not France. Thedosian rabbit is not Earth rabbit. Thedosian water is not Earth's water. Thedosian air is not Earth's air. Thedosians are NOT us. Even if we're the obvious inspiration.

 

Thedas is simply a world that appears similar to ours in many respects - enough for us to feel familiar and comfortable in it - but it isn't as close to it as you think it is. The existence of Fade alone takes care of that, and that's not even mentioning Stone, Titans, Void, Blight and whatever else there is, lurking in shadows. It's a magical world through and through, strongly implied to have magical origins, with at least one whole species that originated from the Fade (elves) and people consisting not just of meat and bone but palpable, demonstrably existing spirits/soul that can leave the body while dreaming to wander the Fade and affect the physical world back. Whats more, its current shape appears to be relying solely on existence of a global magical barrier.

[midnight tea]

Justice said in DAA that many spirits look down on mortals and think they aren't worth saving. And that he disagrees and thinks they are. So I don't know. Some are maybe content as they are and don't need any reason to interact with mortals. And maybe some do, if they take interest in someone they find virtuous enough. Maybe it's more that mortals more often have to cross the Veil to seek them out, rather than the other way around?

 

I think it depends what spirits we're talking about. It's said (in WoT 1) that spirit of Hope is so rare, because there's not much of the sentiment itself among the living. That itself suggests that spirits would be drawn to the world if there's enough of stuff to interest them in... Or at the very least that spirits who have found what interested them don't, if the sentiment or emotion isn't prevalent. And it just so happens that most spirits of Hope, or Wisdom or Compassion don't seem to have much to do among the living (aside from the fact that they're rare in itself, at least judging from Solas's comments to Cole), while spirits drawn to Thedas are mostly lesser or drawn to more sinister things: fear, desire, hunger, despair and so on, because those are sentiments that are abundant. There are also "corrupting influences" Solas mentions, where spirit will adapt to people's expectations or become twisted.

 

...I think it the prevalence or rarity of certain spirits may indeed be a good indicator of the state Thedas is in. Most of the spirits we know of are either "bad" ones or twisted to such, while interactions with "good" or benevolent spirits are fairly rare.

[midnight tea]

I don't think its trolling to place a value on the lives of people that will be lost when Solas brings down the Veil and to oppose him for that reason. Of course, if you don't care about people's lives, this will not matter to you.

 

Huh... I must really be a real monster to enjoy all those wacky disaster movies where people die in droves, or writing stories where fates of entire civilizations are at stake. Because obviously I "don't care" about fictional people so it means that I don't care about people whatsoever. Lock me in Alkatraz or something . I'm a clear sociopathic misanthrope because I enjoy fiction with enormous stakes. deep moral quandaries or occasional cataclysm! Which... you know... I can safely explore because it's frikking fiction.

 

The funny thing is, the issue with Thedas is not as simple as you present it to be. I've already pointed out that you seem to be predominantly interested with only side of the conflict while dismissing anything else - in fact dismissing anything you have problems with to a point of absurdity, painting it in worst light imaginable, in what appears to be an attempt to make the conflict as black-and-white as possible and therefore push away an uncomfortable thought that things may not be as easy and simple as you want them to be. So far it seems that from your point of view only modern Thedosians are fit living in the world as it is and worth saving. Damn the elves, damn the dwarves, damn spirits, damn everything else - damn even the possibility that even if the world survives for a time in a shape it is, it may not be something that lasts.

 

The way you and Midnight Tea present your argument, it sounds like that there will be some form of utopia when the Veil goes down which will not happen since there is no such thing as a utopia. Furthermore, the pro-Solas camp is not bothering to address these concerns.

 

It's incredible how many pages we can spend addressing concerns you say we don't address (here and in other threads) and how many times I or others have to say that this is not about utopia, or even close to utopia, and for you to still claim otherwise.

 

Like... this is not just misunderstanding, this is a downright LIE.

 

How will we defeat 7 immortal mage kings when the Veil goes down ?

 

What makes you certain that we wouldn't have problems with them anyway? Or that they'd never ever find a way to reach level of power that would make them a danger for Veiled world either way, given that the problem before was that they wanted to reach for the Blight to control everything - and SOMETHING certainly wants to reach for the power of the Blight again, given that they've managed to convince humans to unleash it on the world.

 

In fact... how are we supposed to defeat immortal mage kings we know NOTHING about? I mean, who is there to know them well and previously defeated them.... oh right - it's Solas. We don't know what plans he had or has now, but it's rather obvious that he's not saying us his plans for likely same reason he doesn't say to Inky why the return of his people means the end of theirs, not because he has nothing planned at all.

 

 

How can we successfully mount a fight against extremely powerful demons like the Nightmare demon as the world burns in the raw chaos ?

 

We've been through this - the Nightmare IS the product of Veil, Blight and people's ignorance. Why? Because it's only thanks to spirit of Justinia that Quizzy and everyone else has found out about what Nightmare does, or in fact that it actually exists. And before you say that Solas didn't seem to known of its existence as well - sure, but he pretty much immediately knew what it was and the threat it presented, and tells us verbatim that he avoided that region of the Fade because it was dangerous to him.

 

So there's no telling what would happen to it in Veilless world, or even if it'd have the power it gathered sneakily throughout centuries without anyone's knowledge. So, what we know now is that the current world that helped it grow to be an extremely powerful demon and it was only thanks to help of a powerful spirit that Inquisitor managed to banish it.

 

 

How will we deal with the Titans, colossal beings who can generate massive Earthquakes by just moving around from wrecking the land, since the Titans are asleep due to the Veil ?

 

They're NOT asleep due to the Veil. They're asleep due to Evanuris making them forget how to wake up, way before the Veil or even Solas's rebellion. In fact, it was Titan stirring that made him finally go against Evanuris, as evidenced by rune on his mural in Trespasser.

 

Plus, Cole tells us enough about Titans forgetting how to wake up, and in Descent we even have a glimpse of how it was possibly accomplished - there are massive sigils written above where Titan lies, visible only from the Fade and apparently connected somehow with Deep Roads. Read the entries on gates of Segrummar.

 

Another plus - the Titan in Descent stirred, but calmed down when it got connected to Valta. So obviously the key doesn't lie in keeping the Veil, but apparently helping dwarves re-connect with Titans.

 

 

How will we deal with the Taint in the Black City / Golden City ?

 

... But the Taint ISN'T in Black City anymore. It's roaming free in Veiled world. And according to Solas comment about Wardens "buying them some time" the world is nearing a time of final strike either way. So good luck with that, considering that over thousands of years of fighting that in Veiled world, the only solution people managed to find was one for Archdemon-led Darkspawn outpourings. Nobody seems to have the slightest clue what the Taint itself is, aside from it being a sinister, corrupting force, never-mind a solution for it.

 

 

How will we deal with the fact that the current Theodosian populations, like the Qunari, are going to band together and try to kill those who brought down the Veil since the Qunari despise magic and the loss of the Veil would be a massive threat to their lifestyle ?

 

The Qunari were/are planning to conquer everything and kill (or "kill" by brainwashing) those who disagree with their lifestyle anyhow. The invasion attempts happened already in the past, and we know that current one has been planned at least since events in DAO, given Sten's conviction that the next time they meet HoF it'd be on a battlefield. So basically, this point is moot.

 

Plus, if "those who brought down the Veil" manage to succeed, I think Qunari banding together to kill them would be the least of their concerns. Of course, that would assume that we won't ever know where Qunari actually come from - their past is shrouded possibly in ever bigger mystery than that of ancient elves. Who knows what secrets we'll find out in DA4, given that we already know that Qunari will be quite a focus of next title (judging from Weekes/Epler GDC talk, where they tell us that Trespasser is setting upthings they'd be focusing in the future: ancient elves, eluvians and Qunari).

 

 

 

I mean, all the pro-Solas folks have to offer right now is essentially boils down to:- "Magic is a natural part of the world."

 

Sure, magic is a natural part of this world but unless you are going to give me sensible plans on how to deal with those 5 issues I raised above instead of "I had plans" and try to give me some evidence that it would be possible for the Veil to come down without massive loss of life, you can't expect me to agree with your stance.

 

Cheers.

 

Huh... oversimplification. Why am I not surprised that you boil down everything that was said to 'but... magic!" and occasionally to "but... utopia!". Thing is nobody here has made any of such simplistic assessments, at best they've said that it's possible that the world in a state it is imbalanced and perhaps the way to bring this balance back is let the magic in again.

 

I mean sure - magic IS part of the world and it brings its own problems. But you make it seem as if magic is JUST problems and that it offers no solutions... despite it doing just that, like in case of Nightmare or way to deal with Corypheus Blighted immortality. Who knows, perhaps it even has solutions modern Thedas didn't find yet, like the Blight itself or shadows of ancient past constantly vying for power over world (whispers of Old Gods, corruption by powerful demons, rise of Corypheus in face of weakness of conflict-ridden continent). We'll never know if we just dismiss it and treat magic like a constant threat - which is modern Thedas' biggest mistake, apparently. 

[Macha'Anu]

I still find it amusing that Solas is this supposed "master of magic" and is, according to the game, literally the worst mage in the game.

 

He sure wins the award for talking about it though, I guess you have to acknowledge that on some level.

Heh. You apprently just didnt spec him right. All of them are quite good at their classes and skills. IF you know how to spec them. Just saying. It wasn't solas's fault he wasn't performing correctly.

[Macha'Anu]

This is video evidence where Solas openly talks about the reality that taking the Veil down will kill lots of people.

 

 

Additionally, you have not addressed any of my actual concerns.

He says it will because he thinks it will. For all we know the creators of the game will not even make it kill everyone. We don't know whats going to happen we only know whats going to happen. Goodness. Its ok to theorize but they are theories. We don't know any facts yet because it hasn't happened.

[Macha'Anu]

There is no need to convince/demonstrate  that this isn't a form of pedantic and passive/aggressive form of debate since even other users perceived it as such(from you).

 

Which is entirely false in case of the SW since they use their abilities to call and contact spirits

The capacity to call spirits is an inherent ability they possess and they can even partially cross the fade without Lyrium like the dreamers.

 

The notion that mages use inherent magical abilities is in itself without sense at best you can say taht they are using as their tool the fade for their magic

The passive aggressiveness is strong on both sides. Not to mention the subtle and sometimes blatent belittling....

[midnight tea]

Heh. You apprently just didnt spec him right. All of them are quite good at their classes and skills. IF you know how to spec them. Just saying. It wasn't solas's fault he wasn't performing correctly.

 

Obviously. I don't consider myself a hardcore min-maxer, but at least 1,5 year spent on intense raiding in ESO with some of the top players has infected me with a bit of min-maxing bug, so in every game I play now that has extensive combat systems I like to have effective builds and well-coordinated team. And the fact is that when I managed to spec my fully leveled RM Inquisitor and Solas and put them in basically the same gear, Solas always hits harder, at least on crit.

 

I'm not the only one who noticed that: http://forum.bioware...nda-low-damage/

 

I've also never had problem during the fight - he stopped being squishy once I actually gave him decent gear, not to mention that prioritizing skills giving or utilizing combos meant that most things literally melted before the fight even began, which includes Nightmare endgame content (and I play exclusively on Nightmare).

 

Now I don't necessarily think this is as relevant as it may appear to be, in-universe. Gameplay and story separation exist for a reason... I mean, I don't think anybody would realistically argue that all the companions actually forgot about how to fight prior to unlocking their specializations in Skyhold , even if we assume that each of them grows more powerful and way better equipped as the story and game progresses. Same with the whole damage output and how they actually behave on the field, given how much depends on how we ourselves spec the group, prioritize preferred attacks or what AI mode we use.

 

Anyway, personally I think what happened with higher damage is that Solas is one of primary/essential companions who'd not leave prior to Cory's defeat and hence it'd be a default mage companion for most players who tried the game. And since they've pegged Solas to be a support/healer in group AND likely one who'd get worse gear (Inky would take better gear first, especially if they're a mage) they might have decided to offset this by making him hit harder by default.

 

Of course that still usually means that in order to make them more effective you have to tamper with AI a bit - most of the time every companion is most effective/least prone to die stupidly when they follow themselves rather than follow/defend a chosen NPC/PC.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The funny thing is, the issue with Thedas is not as simple as you present it to be. I've already pointed out that you seem to be predominantly interested with only side of the conflict while dismissing anything else - in fact dismissing anything you have problems with to a point of absurdity, painting it in worst light imaginable, in what appears to be an attempt to make the conflict as black-and-white as possible and therefore push away an uncomfortable thought that things may not be as easy and simple as you want them to be. So far it seems that from your point of view only modern Thedosians are fit living in the world as it is and worth saving. Damn the elves, damn the dwarves, damn spirits, damn everything else - damn even the possibility that even if the world survives for a time in a shape it is, it may not be something that lasts.

 

Interesting. I am on the side of modern Theodosians yet you accuse me for not caring for Elves of Dwarves or Spirits. To me Elves and Dwarves should adapt to the modern world and Spirits should stay in the Fade. Also, how are you so sure that the Veil-less world will last ? It didn't the last time. Most importantly, you are misrepresenting my viewpoints as black and white - I simply think like Varric, which is not a black and white viewpoint, it is simply a practical viewpoint.

 

 

• Solas: Is there at least a movement to reunite Orzammar and Kal-Sharok?
• Varric: What is it with you, Chuckles? Why do you care so much about the dwarves?
• Solas: Once, in the Fade, I saw the memory of a man who lived alone on an island. Most of his tribe had fallen to beasts or disease. His wife had died in childbirth. He was the only one left. He could have struck out on his own to find a new land, new people. But he stayed. He spent every day catching fish in a little boat, every night drinking fermented fruit juice and watching the stars.
• Varric: I can think of worse lives.
• Solas: How can you be happy surrendering, knowing it will all end with you? How can you not fight?
• Varric: I suppose it depends on the quality of the fermented fruit juice.
• Solas: So it seems.

 

 

• Varric: What's with you and the doom stuff? Are you always this cheery or is the hole in the sky getting to you?
• Solas: I've no idea what you mean.
• Varric: All the "fallen empire" crap you go on about. What's so great about empires anyway?
• Varric: So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire.
• Varric: There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad.
• Varric: Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be.
• Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you.
• Varric: I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell.

 

 

• Solas: You truly are content to sit in the sun, never wondering what you could've been, never fighting back.
• Varric: Ha, you've got it all wrong, Chuckles. This is fighting back.
• Solas: How does passively accepting your fate constitute a fight?
• Varric: In that story of yours—-the fisherman watching the stars, dying alone. You thought he gave up, right?
• Solas: Yes.
• Varric: But he went on living. He lost everyone, but he still got up every morning. He made a life, even if it was alone.
• Varric: That's the world. Everything you build, it tears down. Everything you've got, it takes. And it's gone forever.
• Varric: The only choices you get are to lie down and die or keep going. He kept going. That's as close to beating the world as anyone gets.
• Solas: Well said. Perhaps I was mistaken.

 

 

"Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be.I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell."

 

"He lost everyone, but he still got up every morning. He made a life, even if it was alone. That's the world. Everything you build, it tears down. Everything you've got, it takes. And it's gone forever. The only choices you get are to lie down and die or keep going. He kept going. That's as close to beating the world as anyone gets."

 

That is how my characters think. They have no interest and no desire to engage in some dangerous ritual that will cost hundreds of thousands of lives. As far as they are concerned, they are here, they are surviving, and they have made a positive difference to the world that they are living in.

 

Whereas you and people like Almostfaceman think like Solas:- "We lost everything and instead of adapting, we are prepared to do whatever it takes to get the supposedly glorious past back, including giving a powerful source of magic to a maniac who used it to kill lots of people at Haven and now we want to take something down and kill lots of people in the process and that's okay because we are somehow not a monster like Corypheus."

 

The last I checked, my world state is a pretty good one:-  Breach is sealed, Qunari are repelled from Southern Thedas, Elves & Humans are working together again because Celene and Briala are united with Gaspard dead, non-Humans like Varric and Clan Lavellan are ruling city states with actual legitimacy, Mages are free, Chantry is more progressive than ever with Leliana as Divine, Templars are no longer around thanks to Cullen's rehabilitation efforts, Seekers are reformed thanks to Cassandra, Wardens are no longer reclusive and there's no Blight.

 

So we have a world state where people are finally healing and starting to get along and in comes Solas and people who support him:- "Welp, according to us, the world is not perfect and people are like Tranquils. You know what, let's try to bring down the Veil, let the world burn in the raw chaos, let lots of people die and then the remainders, you know, those who are capable of adapting, will be somehow better. This is all okay because we are not a monster like Corypheus because we are giving the world state that the protagonist worked hard to create a few years of peace before we wreck it."

 

Are you surprised to find people, even those who play non-Human Inquisitors, opposing you for this ?

 

Heh. You apprently just didnt spec him right. All of them are quite good at their classes and skills. IF you know how to spec them. Just saying. It wasn't solas's fault he wasn't performing correctly.

 

Solas can't be specced right unless you take drastic actions, namely not using abilities or spells or enchantments that are lightning based, except Lightning Bolt.

 

The reason for this is the Shock-Weakness bug. If you have a target that is affected by the Shock effect from Lightning Cage or Chain Lightning or a Lightning-enchanted weapon or Elemental Mines or Flask of Lightning at melee range and you try to weaken the target, the Shock and Weakness effect will cancel out and be replaced with Sleep.

 

The problem with this is twofold. One, it removes the mana regeneration, damage reduction, damage increase and status effects buff that Rift Mages are supposed to get by Weakening a target. Two, many enemies are immune to Sleep, especially at higher difficulties with Trials toggled on. Lightning Bolt is unaffected by this because it does not place a Shock effect on a target but instead paralyzes them.

 

I guess Ancient Elves didn't know how Lightning based magics worked.

[Aren]

You mean that one time Secret Rare called my comment "a little pedantic" in a different context and made no accusation of any sort of aggression? Oh, this is desperate. 

 

TBH I have to be amused at the whole accusations of passive-aggressiveness. I am pretty straightforward when someone or someone's argumentation reaches the point of being somewhat annoying or I'm tired with repeating or clarifying something that doesn't really requires clarification. That's all there is to it.

 

Is not related to a specific user but to a series of users(not sure why i should make names now i don't like it) who perceived this aggressive attitude from someone who always pretend  to be right,what was the last one a debate about the composition of Thedas? In which you was not right for many not sure why  you're unable to accept that they disagree..

 

As for the SW:

Their ability to contact spirits is inherent to them is something that exist within them  is not taken in load from the outside,that they are not categorized as non-mages by the chantry is something that make sense because they are not conventional non-mages,true however that aside from one person in one single installment Bioware never proposed this state in any other game.

[Xerrai]

Solas can't be specced right unless you take drastic actions, namely not using abilities or spells or enchantments that are lightning based, except Lightning Bolt.

 

The reason for this is the Shock-Weakness bug. If you have a target that is affected by the Shock effect from Lightning Cage or Chain Lightning or a Lightning-enchanted weapon or Elemental Mines or Flask of Lightning at melee range and you try to weaken the target, the Shock and Weakness effect will cancel out and be replaced with Sleep.

 

The problem with this is twofold. One, it removes the mana regeneration, damage reduction, damage increase and status effects buff that Rift Mages are supposed to get by Weakening a target. Two, many enemies are immune to Sleep, especially at higher difficulties with Trials toggled on. Lightning Bolt is unaffected by this because it does not place a Shock effect on a target but instead paralyzes them.

 

I guess Ancient Elves didn't know how Lightning based magics worked.

Eh, I may not be a hardcore player or anything, but a "rightly" specced Solas is the only mage in my party that I can leave alone and still be alive by the end of every fight. Dorians ends up canceling his own fear-inducements and attracting attention, while Vivviene gets up close and personal a bit too often and gets herself killed. Meanwhile Solas buys me a decent amount of time with his specialty abilities (however brief they are) and by and large is my de facto support mage....which really means he's the only mage I use now.

 

...why all mages are problematic, I don't know.

 

But I will give you this though, I may have caught a few inconsistencies with lightning debuffs, but I never knew it was the result of a Shock-Weakness bug (will it not be patched?). So I learned that.