4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Macha'Anu]

I would mean immediately after planet formation, if we are thinking of it that way. The first life sustaining state.

I am assuming a veil-less world is this original state, based on what we know at this time.

Yup. It seems to me Thedas was a much different atmosphere and world before Solas locked away the Evanuris and Old ones. A world intertwined with fade and magic. Even without his version of it. The knowledge keepers acknowledge the fact. The murals acknowledge it. The lost journals and codex findings acknowledge it. Even Abelas emotions and words acknowledge the thedas of today is a chaotic state to him. It's pretty obvious something bad happened long ago to change the world drastically. What I wanna know is where darkspawn really came from...

[Nimlowyn]

Yup. It seems to me Thedas was a much different atmosphere and world before Solas locked away the Evanuris and Old ones. A world intertwined with fade and magic. Even without his version of it. The knowledge keepers acknowledge the fact. The murals acknowledge it. The lost journals and codex findings acknowledge it. Even Abelas emotions and words acknowledge the thedas of today is a chaotic state to him. It's pretty obvious something bad happened long ago to change the world drastically. What I wanna know is where darkspawn really came from...

Yes, and from what we can gather thus far, from scholarship on the Veil to Solas' words, this seems to be the world's original state. We could always find out this isn't the case in the future but, honestly, I don't think the writers would muddy up the narrative like that. I think we're looking at a big moral dilemma of: Do we sacrifice millions now to save future billions suffering later? Is it worth it to get the world back to the way it should be? Should the world even be like that, original or not? Flemeth does say "things happened that were not meant to happen". I want to know what she means. 

 

I also so want to know about the darkspawn and the Blight. Solas knows. Flemeth knows. I was just playing Origins earlier, I was at Ostagar, and the horde approaches, and you hear those whispers, that sound so much like those from the Well of Sorrows...I want to know all the things!  I really think we're close too, just gotta make it to DA4. 

[Addictress]

It's called Dragon Age 4

[Aren]

Of course it's taken from outside. The very class' description tells us where they take their powers from - from spirits they flirt with to let to see the glimpse of the world. Like... there's nothing you can tell to save this. Even the fact that you mention how rare they are shows that this is not a discipline available to everyone and requires specific talents. I mean, the whole argument sprouted from you trying to show that non-mages can pretty much casually use magic, like mages do. Obviously they can't. And we know why most of them can't now - it's the Veil... as well as contribution of culture they've surrounded with that disapproves either of magic or spirits. So long as those exist there's a likely possibility that most people's connection to the Fade shall stay mostly unconscious and their own magic will be something they stay mostly blind to.

Like... there's no other solution to this than massive change of perception. And considering that the Fade - and the Veil itself - has everything to do with perception (http://dragonage.wik...entry:_The_Veil), it ultimately means changes to the entire world and end of Thedas as we know it.

The very first ability of Spiritual warriors is to call spirits from the fade, this ability does not depend on spirits and is an inner quality of the SW, that they can later use their magical resources is another matter.

[German Soldier]

I am assuming a veil-less world is this original state, based on what we know at this time.

What we know now is that even their world had a separation of some sort between the fade and rest of the planet.
The fade as it was presented seem to be more like an ocean in the sky where even ancient elves had the need to train in order to enter in it's deep corners.
What Solas did with the veil seem to be just like when the Ocean/fade is frozen on the surface.

[Almostfaceman]

What we know now is that even their world had a separation of some sort between the fade and rest of the planet.
 

 

No, you've made that up. Provide some citation for this assertion. 

[Donk]

*Catches up*

Lmao. Well.. That was comedy gold.

[Nimlowyn]

What we know now is that even their world had a separation of some sort between the fade and rest of the planet.
The fade as it was presented seem to be more like an ocean in the sky where even ancient elves had the need to train in order to enter in it's deep corners.
What Solas did with the veil seem to be just like when the Ocean/fade is frozen on the surface.

 

 

No, you've made that up. Provide some citation for this assertion. 

 

I don't think German Soldier is making it up. I think they are interpreting the codices in Vir Dirthara, particularly The Deepest Fade: "Ephiphany requires a mind smooth as mirror glass, still as stone. Put aside ten years for practice, and the next hundred for searching. What others have learned will ease your journey. Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes overtakes our brethren of the air." http://dragonage.wik...e_Deepest_Fade 

 

I can see how the language might suggest some sort of barrier to be overcome, given the emphasis on preparation and journeys, but I do not think this is necessarily the case. To use the ocean analogy: I live 5 miles inland from the Pacific Ocean. I can walk out my front door, down the street, directly into the ocean if I so choose. There is no physical, corporeal barrier preventing me from doing so. I can do so without training and drown, or I can make the proper preparations to walk that distance and swim as far into the ocean as possible. If we had a barrier, a Veil, it would not be possible for me to physically enter the ocean at all.

 

Furthermore, we have Solas saying in Haven that the Fade "...is not a place, but a state of nature, like the wind." From what we know, I do not think there was a barrier between the Fade and the physical world, but a delineation, just like there is land, shore, and sea. Boundaries, not barriers. 

[Almostfaceman]

I don't think German Soldier is making it up. I think they are interpreting the codices in Vir Dirthara, particularly The Deepest Fade: "Ephiphany requires a mind smooth as mirror glass, still as stone. Put aside ten years for practice, and the next hundred for searching. What others have learned will ease your journey. Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes overtakes our brethren of the air." http://dragonage.wik...e_Deepest_Fade 

 

I can see how the language might suggest some sort of barrier to be overcome, given the emphasis on preparation and journeys, but I do not think this is necessarily the case. To use the ocean analogy: I live 5 miles inland from the Pacific Ocean. I can walk out my front door, down the street, directly into the ocean if I so choose. There is no physical, corporeal barrier preventing me from doing so. I can do so without training and drown, or I can make the proper preparations to walk that distance and swim as far into the ocean as possible. If we had a barrier, a Veil, it would not be possible for me to physically enter the ocean at all.

 

Furthermore, we have Solas saying in Haven that the Fade "...is not a place, but a state of nature, like the wind." From what we know, I do not think there was a barrier between the Fade and the physical world, but a delineation, just like there is land, shore, and sea. Boundaries, not barriers. 

 

No, you're confused. German is saying that the world of the elves was separate from the world of Thedas and the Fade. That it existed in its own state. There's nothing in the game that supports this that I know of.  I say there's only evidence for two states. Thedas and the Fade. He's saying there were three. The world of the elves, Thedas and the Fade. 

[Nimlowyn]

No, you're confused. German is saying that the world of the elves was separate from the world of Thedas and the Fade. That it existed in its own state. There's nothing in the game that supports this that I know of.  I say there's only evidence for two states. Thedas and the Fade. He's saying there were three. The world of the elves, Thedas and the Fade. 

Oh really? That's not what I got from our interactions. I admit I haven't read much of the back and forth between you two. 

 

I would agree with the assessment you present here. I don't see any evidence for three world states...?

 

Looks like German has said that I understood them correctly. 

[German Soldier]

No, you're confused. German is saying that the world of the elves was separate from the world of Thedas and the Fade. That it existed in its own state. There's nothing in the game that supports this that I know of.  I say there's only evidence for two states. Thedas and the Fade. He's saying there were three. The world of the elves, Thedas and the Fade. 

 

 

@Nimlowyn is not confused that's what i meant.

Not sure why you understood "world of the elves" in my previous post as something different.

[Almostfaceman]

 

@Nimlowyn is not confused that's what i meant.

Not sure why you understood "world of the elves" in my previous post as something different.

 

 

What did Nimlowyn say you meant? 

[Almostfaceman]

Oh really? That's not what I got from our interactions. I admit I haven't read much of the back and forth between you two. 

 

I would agree with the assessment you present here. I don't see any evidence for three world states...?

 

Looks like German has said that I understood them correctly. 

 

No, you haven't. 

[Nimlowyn]

No, you haven't. 

I'm taking their word for it.

[Almostfaceman]

What we know now is that even their world had a separation of some sort between the fade and rest of the planet.
The fade as it was presented seem to be more like an ocean in the sky where even ancient elves had the need to train in order to enter in it's deep corners.
What Solas did with the veil seem to be just like when the Ocean/fade is frozen on the surface.

 

If there is a separation between the rest of the planet and their world, that's a state outside of Thedas. Then you have the Fade. That's three states. 

 

If you mean something else, you need to say something different. 

[Almostfaceman]

I'm taking their word for it.

 

You should probably pay attention to what they said, instead. 

[midnight tea]

I don't think German Soldier is making it up. I think they are interpreting the codices in Vir Dirthara, particularly The Deepest Fade: "Ephiphany requires a mind smooth as mirror glass, still as stone. Put aside ten years for practice, and the next hundred for searching. What others have learned will ease your journey. Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes overtakes our brethren of the air." http://dragonage.wik...e_Deepest_Fade 

 

I can see how the language might suggest some sort of barrier to be overcome, given the emphasis on preparation and journeys, but I do not think this is necessarily the case. To use the ocean analogy: I live 5 miles inland from the Pacific Ocean. I can walk out my front door, down the street, directly into the ocean if I so choose. There is no physical, corporeal barrier preventing me from doing so. I can do so without training and drown, or I can make the proper preparations to walk that distance and swim as far into the ocean as possible. If we had a barrier, a Veil, it would not be possible for me to physically enter the ocean at all.

 

Furthermore, we have Solas saying in Haven that the Fade "...is not a place, but a state of nature, like the wind." From what we know, I do not think there was a barrier between the Fade and the physical world, but a delineation, just like there is land, shore, and sea. Boundaries, not barriers. 

 

Nnnnot really sure I follow. There's nothing really that suggests any sort of barrier - the codex mentions particularly difficult to reach regions of Fade and the state of mind one has to reach in order to reach them. No boundaries, barriers or "oceans in the sky". The last one baffles me especially, since the Fade has been frequently compared to sky itself, and even in the "Deepest Roots" is straightforwardly compares Fade to air, or even plant/tree ('deepest/stillest roots' and all) - not really any sort of ocean.

 

I think it's pretty apparent that "Deepest Roots" is vaguely inspired by Buddhist/hindu meditation and reaching the state of Nirvana. It speaks of epiphany and the sense of calm one has to reach in order to search for Fade's roots... which in itself suggests Fade's origins or most primordial parts, cause that's what roots are usually used as metaphor of.

 

I mean, the only 'separation' that seems to exist in time of Elvenhan between Fade and the world appears to be the separation between "Waking"/Unchanging World and "Dreaming" - we know that these distinctions existed in Elvenhan and we know that there had to be somewhere that 'brethren of the air' manifested into. The 'separation' however appears to be purely on mental level. Even the codex about the Veil mentions that crossing it is about shifting perception and that thinking of it as physical barrier of any sorts is a mistake.

 

 

Spoiler

"I detest this notion that the Veil is some manner of invisible "curtain" that separates the world of the living from the world of the spirits (whether it be called the Fade or the Beyond is a matter of racial politics I refuse to indulge in at the moment). There is no "this side" and "that side" when it comes to the Veil. One cannot think of it as a physical thing or a barrier or even a "shimmering wall of holy light" (thank you very much for that image, Your Perfection).

 

Think of the Veil, instead, as opening one's eyes.

 

Before you opened them, you saw our world as you see it now: static, solid, unchanging. Now that they are open, you see our world as the spirits see it: chaotic, ever-changing, a realm where the imagined and the remembered have as much substance as that which is real—more, in fact. A spirit sees everything as defined by will and memory, and this is why they are so very lost when they cross the Veil. In our world, imagination has no substance. Objects exist independently of how we remember them or what emotions we associate with them. Mages alone possess the power to change the world with their minds, and perhaps this forms the nature of a demon's attraction to them—who can say?

 

Regardless, the act of passing through the Veil is much more about changing one's perceptions than a physical transition. The Veil is an idea, it is the act of transition itself, and it is only the fact that both living beings and spirits find the transition difficult that gives the Veil any credence as a physical barrier at all.

 

So if the Veil itself is a non-physical barrier and it only takes a shift in perception to cross it, there must've been far less of the 'barrier' before.

[Nimlowyn]

You should probably pay attention to what they said, instead. 

I said I thought they were interpreting Vir Dirthara. They said that's what they meant. I was paying attention to my interaction with German. I don't think anyone but German is qualified to say whether or not I understand them, and this is getting a bit aggressive...for no reason. 

[Almostfaceman]

I said I thought they were interpreting Vir Dirthara. They said that's what they meant. I was paying attention to my interaction with German. I don't think anyone but German is qualified to say whether or not I understand them, and this is getting a bit aggressive...for no reason. 

 

Did you see what they said, that I replied to? They clearly describe three states. Just read it, I explain my reasoning above. Then you'll understand where I'm coming from. 

 

I'm plain spoken, if you want to read "aggressive" into that, that's on you. 

[midnight tea]

If there is a separation between the rest of the planet and their world, that's a state outside of Thedas. Then you have the Fade. That's three states. 

 

If you mean something else, you need to say something different. 

 

Well I'd say that technically there exists a "3rd state" - Crossroads. I wouldn't however call them separate from Thedas and we know with absolute certainty that plains like Crossrods or Vir Dirthara weren't the only places elves lived. The 'real world' the Crossroads and Fade are all part of Thedas and the game so far tells us that it's a mistake to treat them as separate.

[Nimlowyn]

 

Nnnnot really sure I follow. There's nothing really that suggests any sort of barrier - the codex mentions particularly difficult to reach regions of Fade and the state of mind one has to reach in order to reach them. No boundaries, barriers or "oceans in the sky". The last one baffles me especially, since the Fade has been frequently compared to sky itself, and even in the "Deepest Roots" is straightforwardly compares Fade to air, or even plant/tree ('deepest/stillest roots' and all) - not really any sort of ocean.

 

I think it's pretty apparent that "Deepest Roots" is vaguely inspired by Buddhist/hindu meditation and reaching the state of Nirvana. It speaks of epiphany and the sense of calm one has to reach in order to search for Fade's roots... which in itself suggests Fade's origins or most primordial parts, cause that's what roots are usually used as metaphor of.

 

I mean, the only 'separation' that seems to exist in time of Elvenhan between Fade and the world appears to be the separation between "Waking"/Unchanging World and "Dreaming" - we know that these distinctions existed in Elvenhan and we know that there had to be somewhere that 'brethren of the air' manifested into. The 'separation' however appears to be purely on mental level. Even the codex about the Veil mentions that crossing it is about shifting perception and that thinking of it as physical barrier of any sorts is a mistake.

 

 

Spoiler

"I detest this notion that the Veil is some manner of invisible "curtain" that separates the world of the living from the world of the spirits (whether it be called the Fade or the Beyond is a matter of racial politics I refuse to indulge in at the moment). There is no "this side" and "that side" when it comes to the Veil. One cannot think of it as a physical thing or a barrier or even a "shimmering wall of holy light" (thank you very much for that image, Your Perfection).

 

Think of the Veil, instead, as opening one's eyes.

 

Before you opened them, you saw our world as you see it now: static, solid, unchanging. Now that they are open, you see our world as the spirits see it: chaotic, ever-changing, a realm where the imagined and the remembered have as much substance as that which is real—more, in fact. A spirit sees everything as defined by will and memory, and this is why they are so very lost when they cross the Veil. In our world, imagination has no substance. Objects exist independently of how we remember them or what emotions we associate with them. Mages alone possess the power to change the world with their minds, and perhaps this forms the nature of a demon's attraction to them—who can say?

 

Regardless, the act of passing through the Veil is much more about changing one's perceptions than a physical transition. The Veil is an idea, it is the act of transition itself, and it is only the fact that both living beings and spirits find the transition difficult that gives the Veil any credence as a physical barrier at all.

 

So if the Veil itself is a non-physical barrier and it only takes a shift in perception to cross it, there must've been far less of the 'barrier' before.

 

As I understood it, German said there was some sort of barrier in the Ancient World, and they were coming to this interpretation based on The Deepest Fade, the codex in Vir Dirthara. I attempted to offer an alternate interpretation of that codex.

 

I agree with everything you've written here. 

[Almostfaceman]

Well I'd say that technically there exists a "3rd state" - Crossroads. I wouldn't however call them separate from Thedas and we know with absolute certainty that plains like Crossrods or Vir Dirthara weren't the only places elves lived. The 'real world' the Crossroads and Fade are all part of Thedas and the game so far tells us that it's a mistake to treat them as separate.

 

I just consider things like the Crossroads to be constructs they used for utility. Morrigan tells us that they used them to travel from one place in Thedas to another. She also says the Crossroads aren't conducive to permanent habitation. So, they used the artificial planes for things like the library, Fade exploration, transportation and lots of other cool things. They lived, however, in Thedas. 

[German Soldier]

You should probably pay attention to what they said, instead. 

That's nothing more than a reading comprehension issue and this has nothing to do with english.

I don't know why you interpreted world of the elves as something entirely different than what i meant just because i also used the word planet.

and not sure why you can say that others are confused when they understood it  right.

[Almostfaceman]

That's nothing more than a reading comprehension issue and this has nothing to do with english.

I don't know why you interpreted world of the elves as something entirely different than what i meant just because i also used the word planet.

 

You said clearly that the world of the elves was separate from the rest of the planet. If you want to describe it differently, you need to do so. I didn't make you say what you said and I didn't make you say it how you said it. That's on you. 

[midnight tea]

I just consider things like the Crossroads to be constructs they used for utility. Morrigan tells us that they used them to travel from one place in Thedas to another. She also says the Crossroads arent conducive to permanent habitation. So, they used the artificial planes for things like the library, Fade exploration, transpiration and lots of other cool things. They lived, however, in Thedas. 

 

Well since Crossroads are part of Thedas I'd say that they "lived in Thedas" either way But anyway, I basically think of places like Crossroads as 'pocket dimensions' where elves warped time and space - and I think that at one time or another they were so intrinsically connected to the realm that living in or outside it made no difference to the elves. Hence this:

The Dead Hand (in Exalted Plains)

"The great stone hand was something of a mystery. One assumes it is a piece broken off from a larger whole. If so, judging by the size of that one hand, I imagine the entire sculpture to be... well, large enough to require the use of obscenities to describe it. Thus I have only one question: where is the rest of the statue? It is difficult to imagine how something so large could go missing."

 

and this:

 

Vir Dirthara: Homecoming

"The pages of this book—memory?—describe an elf approaching a city of glass spires so deeply blue they ache. The city's outskirts are wrapped in lakes of mist, and figures stroll along the pearly, glowing strips as if they walked on solid ground. Groves of trees woven into enormous parks shelter elves in quiet hollows, while other elves walk below a river churning along an invisible shoal in the air.

 

The scene hums with quiet talk and contentment as the memory's maker reaches the city's gates, already thrown open wide."

 

Of course that changed when the Veil was lifted and the magic supporting these constructs evaporated into a trickle and both the real world and the entire dimension/plane of the Fade got artificially separated.